What kind of language is tongues?

[LinkH]

What do you think speaking in tongues is?

Human languages?
An angelic language?
A special language only between you and God?
Something else?

 

[Alithis]

spiritual ... have you ever wondered what language and form you will use to communicate when you die and your are separated from your body? what "tongue " will you speak then when you have no tongue ?

 

[Dave-W]

What do you mean "when you have no tongue?"

Did not our Risen Lord speak with a tongue to his disciples? Does not John tell us in his letters that we in our resurrected state be "like Him?" Are we not described in Revelation as standing before the throne crying out "WORTHY WORTHY WORTHY, HOLY HOLY HOLY!!" ?

 

[Dave-W]

What do you think speaking in tongues is?

Human languages?
An angelic language?
A special language only between you and God?
Something else?

Any and/or all of the above.

 

[LinkH]

spiritual ... have you ever wondered what language and form you will use to communicate when you die and your are separated from your body? what "tongue " will you speak then when you have no tongue ?

I'm expecting a for there to be tongue in my resurrected body.

 

[dragongunner]

Some are of the human language, and others may be that of angels. Paul said "tho I speak with the tongues of men and angels….."

 

[DannLeavitt]

I have this theory that I can't exactly prove that the language of Heaven is tongues... It will be the language we speak when we get to Heaven. According to my unproven theory, anyways.
But I think that all of your answers are valid. Many Pentecostal's believe in a difference between "tongues" and the "gift of tongues."
Tongues would be a language between you and God only, translated only by the Holy Spirit. The gift of tongues could be used in two ways... 1. Public Tongues out loud in a service, and 2. Tongues in a language the speaker does not know but the listener does know, so that the listener may hear a message from God.

My mom once told me a story about a missionary that was praying in tongues and, to the amazement of the people around, the missionary was speaking in their native language and bringing a word from God. I thought that was pretty profound.

 

[Alithis]

I'm expecting a for there to be tongue in my resurrected body.

oh im sure lol .
however it is not a terrestrial body but a celestial .
and - many have testified .having died and gone to the presence of the lord without their flesh body . and they all speak with the lord ..spirit to spirit .

one thing i think is exciting is the importance of openness and honesty in the church and with one another as believers in the Lord Jesus born again of the Holy Spirit . holding nothing back from one another nor having anything in our lives that we would feel the need to hold back . we should get quickly acquainted with this nature of unity which far transcends this earthen version . where every one is known of every one else and what is of me is known by all .

in some more detailed testimonies they refer to this unity ,that in that bodiless state of spirit thoughts are not limited to within ones skull but are open and drifting for all to hear, all to know .

 

[Biblicist]

What do you think speaking in tongues is?

Human languages?
An angelic language?
A special language only between you and God?
Something else?

I am inclined to believe that when the Spirit speaks to the Father that he does so in a heavenly (angelic) form of communication. I'm not all that confident with referring to this as a language particularly as Paul in 1Cor 14 makes a careful comparison with tongues as being some form of sound and not specifically a language as we humans know.

Is there a connection with Rom 8:26 where Paul tells us;

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans".​

Are we to equate these non-language groans in Rom 8 with 1Cor 14 with how Paul has likened tongues to that of musical instruments/sounds?

 

[Righttruth]

I am inclined to believe that when the Spirit speaks to the Father that he does so in a heavenly (angelic) form of communication. I'm not all that confident with referring to this as a language particularly as Paul in 1Cor 14 makes a careful comparison with tongues as being some form of sound and not specifically a language as we humans know.

Is there a connection with Rom 8:26 where Paul tells us;

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans".​

Are we to equate these non-language groans in Rom 8 with 1Cor 14 with how Paul has likened tongues to that of musical instruments/sounds?

As I understand, if you referred to the previous verses, it the wordless groans of a person that will be interceded (or made understood to the Father) by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Biblicist]

As I understand, if you referred to the previous verses, it the wordless groans of a person that will be interceded (or made understood to the Father) by the Holy Spirit.

Even though I am inclined to the position that it is the Holy Spirit who is the one who “intercedes with “alaletois”, I am still in the process of coming to a ‘final’ opinion as to what Paul meant which hopefully shouldn’t take more than another week or so.

Now I am certainly of the view that when we pray in the Spirit that the Holy Spirit speaks to the Father in some form of heavenly articulation, but up until maybe the last couple of months where I was content to use the phrase a “heavenly language”, when I look at the Greek and with the various Greek commentaries, it appears that our English ‘language’ may not be the best choice, where either articulation or inarticulation may be a more appropriate word. I certainly wouldn’t build a church around it but for the sake of precision it may very well be the only option available.

This of course has the connection with Rom 8:26 which has the support or partial support of scholars such as Thiselton (2001) and Macchia (2012) along with Gordon Fee God’s Empowering Presence (1996) pg. 582-83 where Fee allocates 11 pages to verses 26 & 27.

Even though the following excerpt of Fee’s material only covers little more than a single page, you might find it to be of interest.

God's Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul, Gordon D. Fee (1996)

The significant areas of correspondence are (a) that the Spirit prays within the believer, and (b) does so with “words” that are not understood by the person praying.327 The other possible correspondence, of course, is between “speaking mysteries by the Spirit” in 1 Cor 14:2 and “the Spirit interceding with inarticulate groanings” in our present passage.328

3. This correspondence also helps to explain another troublesome matter. On the one hand, all recognize that the word “groaning” in v. 26 is picked up from v. 23; yet in v. 23 we groan, while here the Spirit intercedes with groanings. This kind of “mixed” message is not significantly different from what we find in 1 Corinthians 14, where “by the Spirit” in v. 2 becomes “my S/spirit prays” in v. 14; likewise with the Abba-cry, which in Gal 4:6 is expressly that of the Spirit (“the Spirit cries Abba, Father”), but in v. 15 above it is by the Spirit that we cry “Abba, Father.” Almost surely in all three cases Paul intends that the Spirit indeed does the praying/crying through our own “spirits,” using our mouths, but in one instance the emphasis is on the Spirit, while in the other it is on our participation.

4. That leads us then to ἀλάλητος itself, which indeed can mean “unspoken,” but can also mean “without words” or “wordless” (BAGD), not necessarily implying without sound or vocalization of some kind, as though it were the equivalent of “silent.” In any case, there is no inherent reason to believe that it should here mean either something for which there are no words or something that remains unspoken, thus silent. If Paul intended “inexpressible” why not use the appropriate word which unambiguously means so?329 And if he had intended “silent,” why not simply say so? Given that it modifies “groanings,” and given that the context is that of prayer, which in the ancient world was primarily vocalized even in private, there is good reason to think that the word means something close to “inarticulate”: not “silent” or “inexpressible,” but without the kind of articulation we associate with the use of words— that is, with words that we understand with our own minds.330

5. That Paul now describes such prayer in the language of “groaning” is a typically Pauline adaptation to context. It seems highly unlikely that he would ever have used this word had it not been for the prior usage in vv. 22 and 23. On the other hand, the very use of this language to refer to prayer by the Spirit seems to necessitate some kind of audibility as a part of the praying. Granted the Spirit is now pictured as making his appeal in our behalf by joining us in our groaning, but for this to be simply a picture of “private, silent prayer” seems to ask too much of the language and the context.

6. That the “praying in the Spirit” here described is other than what Paul in 1 Cor 14:14-15 describes as “praying with the mind” is certain by the final, explanatory sentence, which attempts to reassure the readers that God knows what the Spirit is “saying” even if we do not. Such a sentence is totally unnecessary if what Paul is describing is a form of personal prayer, in which the Spirit is merely “assisting” our own praying and whose content we know perfectly well. That God knows the mind of the Spirit, who is appealing in our behalf, is what gives one confidence, even though he intercedes with “inarticulate (to us) groanings.”

7. We should also note that for Paul this is not primarily theological argumentation. Rather, he seems to be speaking about a common, everyday experience of prayer for himself and others. At the same time he is also interpreting that experience as “intercession by the Spirit” on our behalf. Thus, this sentence grows out of (a) the experience of the Spirit, which (b) Paul is now interpreting.331


Footnotes:

327In rejecting this view, Obeng (“Spirit Intercession,” 363) seems to miss the significance of the data in 1 Corinthians 14 by a wide margin.

328 Byrne, 'Sons, ’ 112-13, suggests that the Pauline analogy is to be found in 1 Cor 2:6-16. But his “parallels” are doubtful at best.

329 Gk. aveK^&XriTOQ, as in 1 Pet 1:8; cf. Polycarp Phil. 1:3. This word is used throughout antiquity to mean what we intend by “inexpressible” in English.

330 See Wedderburn, “Rom 8.26,” who allows that such an understanding may be a valid one.

331 This leaves some doubts as to the relevance of the two articles by Obeng (see n. 304), who seems to suggest that the origins of this passage lie with Paul’s theologizing, not with his own experience.

​

 

[Righttruth]

Even though I am inclined to the position that it is the Holy Spirit who is the one who “intercedes with “alaletois”, I am still in the process of coming to a ‘final’ opinion as to what Paul meant which hopefully shouldn’t take more than another week or so.

Thanks for your thoughts. Let me know your future findings.

Now I am certainly of the view that when we pray in the Spirit that the Holy Spirit speaks to the Father in some form of heavenly articulation,

That is a possibility. However, the groaning is that of a person praying, not that of the Holy Spirit.

The significant areas of correspondence are (a) that the Spirit prays within the believer, and (b) does so with “words” that are not understood by the person praying.327 The other possible correspondence, of course, is between “speaking mysteries by the Spirit” in 1 Cor 14:2 and “the Spirit interceding with inarticulate groanings” in our present passage.

1 Cor 14:2 is not related to speaking mysteries by the Spirit. It is related to an unknown tongue of a person.

3. This correspondence also helps to explain another troublesome matter. On the one hand, all recognize that the word “groaning” in v. 26 is picked up from v. 23; yet in v. 23 we groan, while here the Spirit intercedes with groanings. This kind of “mixed” message is not significantly different from what we find in 1 Corinthians 14, where “by the Spirit” in v. 2 becomes “my S/spirit prays” in v. 14

I don't think we can conveniently replace small letter 's' by a capital one, 'S'!





​

 

[Alithis]

That is a possibility. However, the groaning is that of a person praying, not that of the Holy Spirit.

that is such an attempt to put it in a box ..
it is a union a communion .. true intercession is, in itself ,the cry of God voiced through the heart and out the mouth of the believer .the cry of heaven does not originate in us out on the earth but from within the kingdom of God .we cannot possibly know what we ought to pray in that respect .as its written "the carnal mind cannot comprehend such things "

refer to the scriptures in regard to intercession ..it originates from the Lord .as in the case of Jobs friends the lord says"my servant Job will pray for you " and what is job to pray .. he will pray along the lines God has told (taught) him to . he will not pray his own will but the lords will .
but who is doing the praying ? Job is .. but where does his prayer originate ?.. with God .for god said .. my servant Job will pray and i will hear him .. it is the very reason we pray in the name of the lord Jesus ..for he makes intercession for us and God hears him. without him we are not heard .not through us ,not through our spirit ,not through mary ,there is no other way to the father but through JESUS. (just making that clear to the rcc )
so it is with praying in the Spirit we pray in the spirit.. that is to say we pray from a place that is not carnal from a place that is not of this world .. we enter by faith into the eternal inner place of the Kingdom of God ,having entered in through the torn veil of the body of Christ .that sure and only way made open to us .and there by the revelation of the Holy Spirit we pray from IN that place the perfect will of God .
tell me does a spirit need a tongue? i assure you he may speak an oracle by a whimper a sermon by a sigh and a universe into being by a shout .

we must not attempt to "box" things into our meagre comprehension but rather surrender our understanding in trust to him who has no beginning and no end .

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My view is that the act of praying in tongues is the ultimate of faith because we don't know what we are saying to God and we are basing our faith on 1 Corinthians 14, that we are speaking mysteries to God. We have no other evidence, except in the rare occasion when someone from another country hears what we say in his own village dialect. This has happened to me only once in all the 46 years I have been praying in tongues. But I have heard testimonies from Kenya in the 1960s that bushmen would come to Pentecostal meetings, not knowing any other language than their own isolated dialect, get baptised in the Spirit and then speak in perfect Oxford English praises to God. They were speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance, but those who understood English heard and understood them perfectly. And when African's spoke English after learning it, they always had a particular accent, but these ones who spoke in tongues spoke as if they had been born and brought up in the South of England.

But for the majority of us, we act in absolute faith and trust in God when we pray in tongues. I don't really care what language I speak, because I trust that whatever I pray in tongues, God understands and appreciates it.

 

[Alithis]

My view is that the act of praying in tongues is the ultimate of faith because we don't know what we are saying to God and we are basing our faith on 1 Corinthians 14, that we are speaking mysteries to God. We have no other evidence, except in the rare occasion when someone from another country hears what we say in his own village dialect. This has happened to me only once in all the 46 years I have been praying in tongues. But I have heard testimonies from Kenya in the 1960s that bushmen would come to Pentecostal meetings, not knowing any other language than their own isolated dialect, get baptised in the Spirit and then speak in perfect Oxford English praises to God. They were speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance, but those who understood English heard and understood them perfectly. And when African's spoke English after learning it, they always had a particular accent, but these ones who spoke in tongues spoke as if they had been born and brought up in the South of England.

But for the majority of us, we act in absolute faith and trust in God when we pray in tongues. I don't really care what language I speak, because I trust that whatever I pray in tongues, God understands and appreciates it.

Amen .

 

[Righttruth]

that is such an attempt to put it in a box ..
it is a union a communion .. true intercession is, in itself ,the cry of God voiced through the heart and out the mouth of the believer .the cry of heaven does not originate in us out on the earth but from within the kingdom of God .we cannot possibly know what we ought to pray in that respect .as its written "the carnal mind cannot comprehend such things "

I think, you are extrapolating. Interpolating is better. Presumptions may not help in understanding what has been plainly revealed. God or Jesus will not pray for you. One cannot pass the buck and responsibility.

refer to the scriptures in regard to intercession

Jesus will intercede depending on your prayer.

..it originates from the Lord .as in the case of Jobs friends the lord says"my servant Job will pray for you " and what is job to pray .. he will pray along the lines God has told (taught) him to . he will not pray his own will but the lords will .

How can it be? Even Jesus prayed," Not My will, Thine be done."

but who is doing the praying ? Job is .. but where does his prayer originate ?.. with God .for god said .. my servant Job will pray and i will hear him .. it is the very reason we pray in the name of the lord Jesus ..for he makes intercession for us and God hears him. without him we are not heard .not through us ,not through our spirit ,not through mary ,there is no other way to the father but through JESUS. (just making that clear to the rcc )

Yes, prayer done by Job.

tell me does a spirit need a tongue? i assure you he may speak an oracle by a whimper a sermon by a sigh and a universe into being by a shout .

No need in some cases. But we shall not forget the power of the spoken understandable word.

 

[Alithis]

I think, you are extrapolating. Interpolating is better. Presumptions may not help in understanding what has been plainly revealed. God or Jesus will not pray for you. One cannot pass the buck and responsibility.



Jesus will intercede depending on your prayer.



How can it be? Even Jesus prayed," Not My will, Thine be done."




Yes, prayer done by Job.



No need in some cases. But we shall not forget the power of the spoken understandable word.

you could not have missed the point more ...

 

[Alithis]

Jesus will intercede depending on your prayer.

what so ever you ask in my name according to my will i will do it

there is one mediator between man and God .. when we approach the father we do so through the lord JESUS no other way ever .

and that question i ask so many i forgot who answered what ...

Have you been baptized in the Holy Ghost ? (as promised by the lord JEsus ) and if so.. how do you know ?

 

[Winken]

Have you been baptized in the Holy Ghost ? (as promised by the lord JEsus ) and if so.. how do you know ?

Yes. Romans 10:8-13.

 

[Biblicist]

I think, you are extrapolating. Interpolating is better. Presumptions may not help in understanding what has been plainly revealed. God or Jesus will not pray for you. One cannot pass the buck and responsibility.

Your right, it is neither God (who cannot pray to himself) or for that matter even Jesus who prays on our behalf but the Holy Spirit; providing of course we are actively choosing to pray in the Spirit (tongues).