What is the unforgivable sin?

[sdowney717]

When you're reading the Bible context is key. Read all of the Matthew 7 passage. Jesus there in the Lord, Lord , verse was talking about the false teachers or prophets.
Think of the TV faith healers you might have seen operating there. They put their hand on someone and speak and then say a bunch of gibberish thinking people will believe they speak in tongues. Then they'll say something to the effect of, be healed! In the name of our lord!
The person falls backward in a swoon and is caught by catchers working for the pastor.

Then for his trouble he departs in a limo or drives away in an expensive car the church paid for because they were impressed with his always doing that.
That is one that the verse pertains to. They profess Christ but he does not know them.

Yes it is not the flashy works to be seen of men that saves, it is the relationship with Christ, being a child of God that saves us.

 

[Hawk Flint]

What of the Lord! lord! verse? They did mighty deeds in his name, and expelled demons in his name. But jesus said that he did not know these people and to begone evildoers.
I mean, I know I'm probably missing something, but it sounds like they are doing the will of the Father.
Please bare in mind, I'm a new christian, less than a month old. Please forgive me for being so ignorant hehe

I think this verse is describing(1) christians who do miracles "in God's name," but the glorified themselves instead of God, taking the credit for themselves,(2) christians who are partakers in wickedness (lawlessness),and (3)christians who rely on works for salvation.

P.S. I'm using Tapatalk, and it won't let me private message anyone. If you know how please tell.

 

[sdowney717]

What does that verse mean to you? In the context of the new testament Christ.

Hebrews 3, simply is exposing that not all the brethren are of God, some are unsaved.
In all churches exist some who are false brethren.
Such a person will have an evil unbelieving heart that departs from God's truth into heresies or flat out denial of Christ.
Christ only saves believers in Him, unbelievers are never saved persons. Hebrews 3 is talking about unbelievers in the midst of a believing church.
If someone departs from God as an unbeliever then they are antichrists who are not of 'us'
The writer of Hebrews is writing to all and also warning all to not depart the faith. And if they do depart the faith, they will not inherit the promises of God. He uses the experience of the Lord destroying those brought out of Egypt who afterwards did not believe God.
Jude 1
Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3 is saying the same thing.

I John 2:18 - 27 describes this departing from the faith.

Warning Concerning Antichrists
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[EmSw]

You are speaking of works based salvation. That is not what Christ taught.

Really? Maybe you should actually read what Christ taught instead listening to someone else.

John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Perhaps you will tell me the resurrection of life isn't salvation.

 

[EmSw]

Our works are an example of our faith. Not a contingency for our Salvation being secure.

No works, no faith, thus no salvation.

 

[Wolfe]

Really? Maybe you should actually read what Christ taught instead listening to someone else.

John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Perhaps you will tell me the resurrection of life isn't salvation.

Pretty sure what she meant was, a works based salvation can't exist. We are only saved through Christ. A faith based salvation is the only way. And if you have faith, you will do the works that accompany it. But you can do works that Jesus wants you to do, and not be a christian.
John 14:6
John 3:16
And
Luke 10:25-37
One of Jesus' commandments was, that we love our neighbour. [Edit] That would be the 'works' in question.
What she is saying is (the way I see it), is that an atheist who does good works, will not be saved.

 

[EmSw]

Hebrews 3, simply is exposing that not all the brethren are of God, some are unsaved.
In all churches exist some who are false brethren.
Such a person will have an evil unbelieving heart that departs from God's truth into heresies or flat out denial of Christ.
Christ only saves believers in Him, unbelievers are never saved persons. Hebrews 3 is talking about unbelievers in the midst of a believing church.
If someone departs from God as an unbeliever then they are antichrists who are not of 'us'
The writer of Hebrews is writing to all and also warning all to not depart the faith. And if they do depart the faith, they will not inherit the promises of God. He uses the experience of the Lord destroying those brought out of Egypt who afterwards did not believe God.

You did not even address my questions to you sdowney. How can an unbeliever depart from God? When did the unbeliever come to God? Can an unbeliever come to God on his own? What kind of faith does an unbeliever have?

You are taking great liberty in saying the brethren are believers and unbelievers. I guess everywhere brethren is used, it means believers and unbelievers.

Jude 1

Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3 is saying the same thing.

So, the writer in Hebrews is talking about those who were saved out of Egypt? Where do you get such beliefs?

I John 2:18 - 27 describes this departing from the faith.

Warning Concerning Antichrists
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Verse 19 does not say they departed from God or from the faith. Why do you want it to say that? In fact, when someone denies the Son, that's a sure sign they did not come to God and then depart later.

 

[EmSw]

Pretty sure what she meant was, a works based salvation can't exist. We are only saved through Christ. A faith based salvation is the only way. And if you have faith, you will do the works that accompany it. But you can do works that Jesus wants you to do, and not be a christian.

As I said, no works, no faith, thus no salvation.

Luke 10:25-37
One of Jesus' commandments was, that we love our neighbour. [Edit] That would be the 'works' in question.
What she is saying is (the way I see it), is that an atheist who does good works, will not be saved.

What I am saying is if one doesn't have works, then he/she doesn't have faith.

 

[Wolfe]

As I said, no works, no faith, thus no salvation.



What I am saying is if one doesn't have works, then he/she doesn't have faith.

That's what Vanillasunflowers said as well, take another look at her post. Jesus didn't teach a works based salvation, he said he is the only way to the Father.
The priest and the levite, in the good samaritan story, did not love thy neighbor, did not do their 'works' as we keep calling it.
What I'm saying, is you can do good works, and be a good person, but you must have faith to be saved.
Doing good works is not faith, it's just being a decent human.
But to say not doing works when you have faith, means you are unfaithful, is not right to say.
Most people, atheist included, will try to help their fellow man. But some people have problems, they're afraid to approach people, or speak out of turn to defend what is morale.

We can have faith in Jesus, but we're still humans, we have flaws, and for some people, that flaw is, fear.



I agree, if you don't help those in need when you're in the position to do so, you're not a good christian.
But as stated, some people want to help, but are too scared to.
I'm probably not being very legible right now, I'm pretty tired

But I guess the TL;DR would be:
You can have faith, and not do works.
Most people will try to help, it's what humans do.
But some people may want to help, but cannot, it's something they need to work on.
Although if someone sees a fight going on, or a robbery, it'd be unwise, and unsafe to rush into the situation. Call the police, and that would suffice.

Also who are we to say who has salvation or not? God is the judge.

 

[sdowney717]

That's what Vanillasunflowers said as well, take another look at her post. Jesus didn't teach a works based salvation, he said he is the only way to the Father.
The priest and the levite, in the good samaritan story, did not love thy neighbor, did not do their 'works' as we keep calling it.
What I'm saying, is you can do good works, and be a good person, but you must have faith to be saved.
Doing good works is not faith, it's just being a decent human.
But to say not doing works when you have faith, means you are unfaithful, is not right to say.
Most people, atheist included, will try to help their fellow man. But some people have problems, they're afraid to approach people, or speak out of turn to defend what is morale.

We can have faith in Jesus, but we're still humans, we have flaws, and for some people, that flaw is, fear.



I agree, if you don't help those in need when you're in the position to do so, you're not a good christian.
But as stated, some people want to help, but are too scared to.
I'm probably not being very legible right now, I'm pretty tired

But I guess the TL;DR would be:
You can have faith, and not do works.
Most people will try to help, it's what humans do.
But some people may want to help, but cannot, it's something they need to work on.
Although if someone sees a fight going on, or a robbery, it'd be unwise, and unsafe to rush into the situation. Call the police, and that would suffice.

Also who are we to say who has salvation or not? God is the judge.

Scripture is so clear about who has eternal life, that it boogles the mind anyone disputes and contends against Christ's words.
John 5:24
[ Life and Judgment Are Through the Son ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

When you study the Word, you must not nullify the Word by pitting scripture against scripture.
So then you must understand the Word considering John 5:24, if your contending some other scripture says something else such as a works based salvation. IF you contend against Christ's words, then your antichrist. So if you focus on something you think states Christ says good works or good fruit saves you, then you have nullified His word in John 5:24.

Good fruit and good works are signs of transformed saved persons who have been changed by their nature from what they were before with evil unbelieving hearts.
And works is not fruit. Look at the description of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Matthew 7
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Matthew 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

By it's nature, Christ says He makes the tree either a good tree or a bad tree.
You can know a tree is good or bad by the fruit it bears. And good trees do bear good fruit, not bad fruit. A tree is known which side it is on by the fruit it produces.
And fruit here is also what you say from the heart, and that includes what your doctrine is about Christ and His Word.

 

[EmSw]

That's what Vanillasunflowers said as well, take another look at her post. Jesus didn't teach a works based salvation, he said he is the only way to the Father.

I am truly amazed Christians can't understand Jesus' words, even with help from the HS.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It takes a dishonest person, even a deceiver, to say Jesus said nothing about doing good works that lead to salvation. They want to jump all over John 5:24, but purposefully fail to include verse 29. Truth is, if a person does not believe verse 29 to be the truth, they don't believe in Jesus, for He is the Word Itself.

If one would only look at verse 29, he would see just two conditions Jesus listed for the two resurrections. He did not list election, predestination, or any such thing. We see those who have done good, and those who have done evil. That's it! Man wants so desperately to add to, or subtract from, Jesus' words.

Yes, you can cite other passages to try to prove your beliefs, but in the end, the words of Jesus will stand. No matter what man wants to add or subtract, doing good or evil is the final word on salvation. Man can try to enter the gate through his evil works, but it only leads to damnation.

Many don't believe what James says either. If you have faith but not works, your faith is dead! Dead faith will save no one! But I know many will not believe Jesus' words and will continue in their dead belief. They will try to justify their dead belief, hoping that will get them by. In fact, some will get angry at Jesus' words and do all they can to trample His words underfoot.

 

[EmSw]

Scripture is so clear about who has eternal life, that it boogles the mind anyone disputes and contends against Christ's words.
John 5:24
[ Life and Judgment Are Through the Son ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here we go with John 5:24. In my earlier post I mentioned those who will use this verse to prove their belief. As we have here, not one word about John 5:29. Eternal life is inherited. Only those who do good and come forth to the resurrection of LIFE, will have eternal life.

When you study the Word, you must not nullify the Word by pitting scripture against scripture.
So then you must understand the Word considering John 5:24, if your contending some other scripture says something else such as a works based salvation. IF you contend against Christ's words, then your antichrist. So if you focus on something you think states Christ says good works or good fruit saves you, then you have nullified His word in John 5:24.

No one is pitting scripture against scripture. One must read and understand ALL scripture to see the whole picture. Scripture fits together perfectly, and only those who leave out pieces, never see the whole picture, but they will convince themselves they see whole ball of wax.

sdowney, please explain and convince us that those who do not do good can come forth forth to the resurrection of life. Tell us how those who do evil can escape the resurrection of damnation.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

No works, no faith, thus no salvation.

What religion teaches that?

 

[EmSw]

What religion teaches that?

The pure and undefiled religion James spoke of.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Really? Maybe you should actually read what Christ taught instead listening to someone else.

John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Perhaps you will tell me the resurrection of life isn't salvation.

Thanks just the same. Jesus never taught us we have to work to be saved. Really.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

The pure and undefiled religion James spoke of.

You believe then that you have to work to be saved, have faith, and then you are saved?

 

[EmSw]

You believe then that you have to work to be saved, have faith, and then you are saved?

Why do you have a problem with good works. As a child of God, you should be embracing good works and obeying God, not questioning His word.

John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Do you believe you can come forth to the resurrection of LIFE by doing evil?

Works is what gives life to faith. Do you believe a dead faith can save?

 

[EmSw]

Thanks just the same. Jesus never taught us we have to work to be saved. Really.

All I can say is, take your chance with evil works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Our works are an example of our faith. Not a contingency for our Salvation being secure.

Think of grace or God as the wind which pushes the water that makes up a wave
(i.e. Initial Salvation or acceptance of God: - Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:1-8);
And think of the movement of the water (that makes up a wave) as works
(i.e. Continued Salvation or God moving in a person's life: Ephesians 2:10, Romans 4:21-22, James 2:17, James 2:24).
The engine or source of power behind the wave is the wind.
The water itself without the wind (or some other kind of force moving the water) cannot be a wave unless there is a force pushing it like the wind or an object. In other words, the wind is God. Christ (God) is our salvation. If God is in our life, then surely there will be evidence of that fact.

In other words, while works within a believers life is not what is actually doing the saving in and of themselves alone, works are a necessary (salvation wise) to show that we are indeed abiding in Jesus Christ who is the source of our salvation. For abiding in the works of Christ (done in us) is a necessary part of the salvation process because there is salvation in no other names besides Jesus Christ. No Jesus and there is no life (1 John 5:12); And if a person abides in Christ, works will be evident within their life.

Scripture says the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30);
And a person can deny God by their works. For it is written, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. For it is written, ", he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

Also, it is written,

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).

Meaning, Jesus will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM (i.e. those who profess to know Christ) and take those within His Kingdom all them who offend (sin) and all those who work iniquity (partake in intense sin) and will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Now, do not misunderstand me, we are initially saved and ultimately saved by Jesus or by God's grace (and not of works alone). For without Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, we would all be doomed; And if we stumble in our walk with God, He can forgive us by what He has done for us (by our repenting of our sins again). But God's grace is not a license for us to sin or to think we can sin and still be saved. God's grace is to let the light of Christ shine within our lives. God's grace is to reform our lives whereby we can become the new man (and not the old man) showing that we have indeed beeen born again.


...

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

In the name of Jesus Christ, may He and his Angels protect this forum and every member in the body of Christ. Amen!