What is the basis of anti-dispensationalism?

[Jack Terrence]

My point was that the denial of these truths is based on a doctrine that the very many explicitly stated prophecies of scripture should be interpreted "spiritually," rather than literally.

There is another option. Certain promises were literal but conditional. Any promise that was not fulfilled by AD70 will not be fulfilled because Israel failed to meet the conditions for it to be fulfilled in the appointed time frame for its fulfillment.

There are MANY unfulfilled promises in scripture. For instance, God promised that there would never be a time when David's throne would be vacant. It was to always be occupied. Yet it was vacant for hundreds of years and according to Dispesationalists is still vacant. How could this be? Answer: The promise was conditional. It's just that simple. Case closed!

 

[Berean777]

But David's throne was just a shadow of the heavenly in the same way the 24 earthly judges were the shadow of the heavenly 24 kingly jury of Christ. After all Christ has 12 old covenant elders seated on his right in heaven and 12 apostle elders seated on his left which the new city heavenly Jerusalem is named after. These are those mentioned in:

Revelation 4:10
the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

David acted in the position of David's throne in the absence of his boss the Christ whose throne it was from the beginning. All the old covenant role plays were types and shadows of the greater tabernacle to follow, when the Son of man approached the ancient of days as prophesied in Daniel 7:13-14, when he was given dominion over all things on earth, in heaven and under the seas and kingdom that shall never be destroyed.

After all after Christ was glorified and sat on the heavenly throne, that is the throne of David. Those 24 kingly judgers who sit on his right and his left are his jury, that is why he is called the king of kings.

 

[notreligus]

I was a hard-line Dispensational for 40 years. Dispensationalism raises many questions that cannot be answered within that system. Hyper-Dispensationalism finally caused me to wake up as to how this is an unscriptural religious system. Hyper-Dispensationalism demands separate covenants for the Jews and Gentiles.

The most basic way that Dispensationalism is not according to the New Covenant and God's Grace is that ALL believers - Jews or Gentiles - have righteousness imputed to them. That righteousness is Christ's righteousness, and it is not dependent on covenantal nomism or any other false presumption. We are all the same in Christ. We are all reconciled to the Father the same way. That is God's own provision. He has determined how we receive reconciliation. We can be a bunch of fools and re-write His program but we are creating lies which demean Christ's own finished work on the cross. The New Covenant is a Blood Covenant. Jew or Gentile - it matters not. Without the Blood which was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies as an ongoing sin covering we are all in a state of being unreconciled to God Almighty. Christ is our attorney and He calls us righteous before the Father.

God created mankind for a relationship. Mankind broke the Edenic Covenant which brought a curse upon mankind and the world. God is in the restoration and reconciliation business. Mankind has never been able to help himself. Adam and Eve could not keep one commandment. The Mitzvot never made the Jews righteous and reconciled, but it kept them condemned as unworthy (none of us are worthy without Christ). Christ's baptism of death on the cross is what God would accept as that which would restore mankind's relationship with the Father. You folk who teach two covenants are teaching what Paul called "another Jesus." Repent and stop leading others astray.

Christ is in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Book is about Him and how He is our righteousness. We look back in the OT writings and find how Christ was pre-figured in the Scriptures, but Christ is the fulfillment, and we don't have to wait for fulfillment. All that we are waiting for is the consummation. That is the literal interpretation that Dispensationals say that they call for.

Those who give the Old Testament so much weight over Christ's fulfillment of the OT Scriptures ought to read the rabbinic oral teachings, and those teachings put in writing are called the Talmud. You'd probably be surprised as to how many scenarios of the Millennium you'd find. In the Pseudepigrapha (no relation to the Talmud), in the Fourth Book of Ezra, to be more specific, it was written around 100 A.D. that the true Messiah would come and drive out all Gentiles from Jerusalem. (You see, they did not accept the Messiah that came and that fits with John Hagee's false teachings.) Messiah would then set up a 400 year kingdom and then Messiah would die. Eventually God would unleash his wrath on mankind and the world. Today Dispensationals have all sorts of scenarios, none of which are specific to our accepted canon of Scripture. Some think that Jews only be on the earth during the Millennium and the Church will be in Heaven and never come back to earth (but the Bible teaches that Christ has one future Kingdom, on the New Earth, and will reign over all of His people and creation); some think that Jews and Gentiles will be co-equal and be on the earth together during the Millennium. Still others think that Jews and Gentiles will be on the earth but Gentiles have a secondary position. Gentiles will be selling gefilte fish tacos outside the Temple walls. Some believe the Law and animal sacrifices will be restored. Of course, the answer to animal sacrifices is that they will be a memorial to Christ's sacrifice. I ask, why must we memorialize the One who will be there in person? And, of course, the Jews will need a thousand years of teaching to finally realize that Christ is the true Messiah and then they must be given the chance to fall away and succumb to a second round of God's own wrath after He had unleashed His full wrath upon the Jews at the end of the Great Tribulation. It all makes perfect sense and it all follows how everyone must be reconciled the same way, doesn't it? It's no wonder the world looks at us and thinks we're a bunch of crazies. But that's what we are. We like to fight and argue and tear down all that Christ has already accomplished and we refuse to accept it.

 

[BABerean2]

I was a hard-line Dispensational for 40 years. Dispensationalism raises many questions that cannot be answered within that system. Hyper-Dispensationalism finally caused me to wake up as to how this is an unscriptural religious system. Hyper-Dispensationalism demands separate covenants for the Jews and Gentiles.

The most basic way that Dispensationalism is not according to the New Covenant and God's Grace is that ALL believers - Jews or Gentiles - have righteousness imputed to them. That righteousness is Christ's righteousness, and it is not dependent on covenantal nomism or any other false presumption. We are all the same in Christ. We are all reconciled to the Father the same way. That is God's own provision. He has determined how we receive reconciliation. We can be a bunch of fools and re-write His program but we are creating lies which demean Christ's own finished work on the cross. The New Covenant is a Blood Covenant. Jew or Gentile - it matters not. Without the Blood which was presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies as an ongoing sin covering we are all in a state of being unreconciled to God Almighty. Christ is our attorney and He calls us righteous before the Father.

God created mankind for a relationship. Mankind broke the Edenic Covenant which brought a curse upon mankind and the world. God is in the restoration and reconciliation business. Mankind has never been able to help himself. Adam and Eve could not keep one commandment. The Mitzvot never made the Jews righteous and reconciled, but it kept them condemned as unworthy (none of us are worthy without Christ). Christ's baptism of death on the cross is what God would accept as that which would restore mankind's relationship with the Father. You folk who teach two covenants are teaching what Paul called "another Jesus." Repent and stop leading others astray.

Christ is in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Book is about Him and how He is our righteousness. We look back in the OT writings and find how Christ was pre-figured in the Scriptures, but Christ is the fulfillment, and we don't have to wait for fulfillment. All that we are waiting for is the consummation. That is the literal interpretation that Dispensationals say that they call for.

Those who give the Old Testament so much weight over Christ's fulfillment of the OT Scriptures ought to read the rabbinic oral teachings, and those teachings put in writing are called the Talmud. You'd probably be surprised as to how many scenarios of the Millennium you'd find. In the Pseudepigrapha (no relation to the Talmud), in the Fourth Book of Ezra, to be more specific, it was written around 100 A.D. that the true Messiah would come and drive out all Gentiles from Jerusalem. (You see, they did not accept the Messiah that came and that fits with John Hagee's false teachings.) Messiah would then set up a 400 year kingdom and then Messiah would die. Eventually God would unleash his wrath on mankind and the world. Today Dispensationals have all sorts of scenarios, none of which are specific to our accepted canon of Scripture. Some think that Jews only be on the earth during the Millennium and the Church will be in Heaven and never come back to earth (but the Bible teaches that Christ has one future Kingdom, on the New Earth, and will reign over all of His people and creation); some think that Jews and Gentiles will be co-equal and be on the earth together during the Millennium. Still others think that Jews and Gentiles will be on the earth but Gentiles have a secondary position. Gentiles will be selling gefilte fish tacos outside the Temple walls. Some believe the Law and animal sacrifices will be restored. Of course, the answer to animal sacrifices is that they will be a memorial to Christ's sacrifice. I ask, why must we memorialize the One who will be there in person? And, of course, the Jews will need a thousand years of teaching to finally realize that Christ is the true Messiah and then they must be given the chance to fall away and succumb to a second round of God's own wrath after He had unleashed His full wrath upon the Jews at the end of the Great Tribulation. It all makes perfect sense and it all follows how everyone must be reconciled the same way, doesn't it? It's no wonder the world looks at us and thinks we're a bunch of crazies. But that's what we are. We like to fight and argue and tear down all that Christ has already accomplished and we refuse to accept it.

By changing the interpretation of Daniel 9:27 we have given up one of the strongest proofs of our faith.

It was given to the angel Gabriel to reveal the New Blood Covenant of Christ that would defeat the enemy and fulfill the promise made to Abraham that through his Seed all the nations of the world would be blessed.

Gen. 3:15, Gen. 22:18, Jer. 31:31-34, Dan. 9:27, Matt. 26:28, John 3:16, Gal. 3:16, Heb. 8:6-13


Daniel 9:27


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

(from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which was the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America)

God made the New Covenant with Israelites like the Apostle Paul, almost 2,000 years ago.
Romans chapter 11 shows how the Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree of faithful Israel.

When two trees are grafted together, neither tree is replaced.

The New Covenant is the only way of salvation until the Second Coming of Christ.
The Holy Spirit is staying on this planet until He returns.

There is no Plan B.

Come Lord Jesus.
.

 

[BukiRob]

I think there are some real challenges to your position on dispensationalism. First, there are fairly clear hints that some form of Torah existed before Moses came down from Sinai with it to give to Israel.

We have from early on in mankinds history the sacrificial system in place. It can be argued that Cain slew Able in a jealous rage over the acceptance of Ables offering and the refusal of acceptance by G-d over Cains offering. The next hint is Noah himself. What was it that Noah was doing that G-d called him a righteous man? of Noah G-d says "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

Later in Genesis we see of Abraham G-d saying to Issac: “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

What is of note here is G-d is highly specific concerning Abraham. It isnt as he said of Noah that " he walked with G-d... it is more specific that Abraham obeyed G-d's charge, decrees, statues and laws.....

I think this does quite a bit of damage to the foundation of dispensatinoalism. If one wants to attempt to argue that G-d has progressively revealed in greater clarity his covenant relationship with man I will heartily agree. I reject the notion of dispensational era's which is a foundational precept of dispensationalism.

I am rather much of the position that the Torah was originally offered to mankind as a whole and man rejected it. At the end the ONLY one walking with G-d was Noah.... after the flood it works its way to Abraham as man continued to reject Adonai. After Israel was led out of Egypt they were given Torah.

Ecclesiasties tells us: That which has been will be again. 1:9 That which has been is that which will be,
And that which has been done is that which will be done.
So there is nothing new under the sun.

as well as 3:14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. 15That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.

What is unmistakably clear is that during the millennial reign is that the Torah will be in full effect. That if a nation fails to observe the Feasts of G-d that rain will be withheld from that land. Messiah himself declared that the Torah will NOT pass away until Heaven and Earth pass away. Ezekiel, Micha speak about this... In fact, the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel go into great detail about this...

I do not see this as G-d changing but rather that the REVELATION is clarified. IOW, we are to walk in Torah obedience as Messiah did.... and NOT as the Rabbinical tradition dictated.

 

[BABerean2]

Later in Genesis we see of Abraham G-d saying to Issac: “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (The promises to Abraham were only made to Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The law came 430 years after the promise to Abraham.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(Our inheritance does not come through the law.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of transgressions "until" the seed (Christ) could come.)

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(The law was our tutor until we come to faith in Christ.)

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Our inheritance comes through Christ.)

God did give a commandment to Abraham... Circumcise your offspring.

God also gave a commandment to Adam... Do not eat of the fruit...

.

 

[BukiRob]

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (The promises to Abraham were only made to Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The law came 430 years after the promise to Abraham.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(Our inheritance does not come through the law.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of transgressions "until" the seed (Christ) could come.)

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(The law was our tutor until we come to faith in Christ.)

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Our inheritance comes through Christ.)

God did give a commandment to Abraham... Circumcise your offspring.

God also gave a commandment to Adam... Do not eat of the fruit...

.

We will agree to disagree...

 

[BABerean2]

We will agree to disagree...

Divine Curse of the Hebrew Roots Movement: Christian AnswersTV

 

[BukiRob]

Divine Curse of the Hebrew Roots Movement: Christian AnswersTV

Why do you like a hebrew roots video? Im not part of the hebrew roots movement.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"What is the basis of anti-dispensationalism?"

The Bible.

 

[BABerean2]

"What is the basis of anti-dispensationalism?"

The Bible.

Good answer.

Another would be the history of the doctrine found below, written by a Brethren Historian in 1966.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Actually, Coad's "history" is factually incorrect.

Most of the basic doctrines of Dispensationalism can be found in the very oldest Christian documents on the subject that have been preserved.

Irenaeus, writing between the years 186 and 188 A.D., was a very pronounced Futurist, clearly stating most of the basic concepts of Dispensationalism. He used the word dispensation, or its plural form dispensations, well over eighty times. He explicitly named a few of these dispensations, namely “the dispensation of the law,” (book III, chapter XI, section 7, and again in book III, chapter XV, section 3) which he also called “the Levitical Dispensation,” (book IV, Title of chapter XVII.) “the Mosaic dispensation,” (book IV, chapter XXXVI, section 2.) and “the legal dispensation.” (book III, chapter X, section 2 and the title of book V, chapter VIII.) He used this last term a third time, contrasting it with “the new dispensation of liberty” in book III, chapter X, section 4. And he spoke of the present age as “our dispensation” in book IV, chapter XV, section 2. Finally, he referred to “the future dispensation of the human race.” (book III, chapter XXII, section 3.) We should also note that he used the term the “dispensations of God,” eight times. These eight times were in book I, chapter X, section 1, book I, chapter XVI, section 3, book II, chapter XXV, section 3, book III, chapter XI, section 9, book IV, chapter XX, section 10, book IV, chapter XXI, section 3, book IV, chapter XXIII, section 1, and book IV, chapter XXXIII, section 1.

William Lowth published a commentary on the book of Ezekiel in 1723, eight years before Manuel Lacunza was born. This widely circulated book clearly taught a literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, including a restoration of Judah and Israel to their ancient homeland and to their God.

And in 1824 Lewis Way published "Palengensia - The World to Come," followed in 1826 by "Thoughts on the Scriptural Expectations of the Church." These books taught a fully developed system of dispensationalism before Irving published his translation of Manuel Lacunza's book in 1827.

 

[BABerean2]

Actually, Coad's "history" is factually incorrect.

Most of the basic doctrines of Dispensationalism can be found in the very oldest Christian documents on the subject that have been preserved.

William Lowth published a commentary on the book of Ezekiel in 1723, eight years before Manuel Lacunza was born. This widely circulated book clearly taught a literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, including a restoration of Judah and Israel to their ancient homeland and to their God.

And in 1824 Lewis Way published "Palengensia - The World to Come," followed in 1826 by "Thoughts on the Scriptural Expectations of the Church." These books taught a fully developed system of dispensationalism before Irving published his translation of Manuel Lacunza's book in 1827.

Did either of them teach that modern Israelites would come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, found in the words of Christ at Matthew 26:28, and "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6?

Or did they claim that God is going back to the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai covenant 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ, even though the New Blood Covenant is "everlasting" (Hebrews 12:24 and Hebrews 13:20) and is also found in Revelation 12:11, in those under the Blood of the Lamb?

Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.





Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.







John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

 

[random person]

I think there are some real challenges to your position on dispensationalism. First, there are fairly clear hints that some form of Torah existed before Moses came down from Sinai with it to give to Israel.

We have from early on in mankinds history the sacrificial system in place. It can be argued that Cain slew Able in a jealous rage over the acceptance of Ables offering and the refusal of acceptance by G-d over Cains offering. The next hint is Noah himself. What was it that Noah was doing that G-d called him a righteous man? of Noah G-d says "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

Later in Genesis we see of Abraham G-d saying to Issac: “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

What is of note here is G-d is highly specific concerning Abraham. It isnt as he said of Noah that " he walked with G-d... it is more specific that Abraham obeyed G-d's charge, decrees, statues and laws.....

I think this does quite a bit of damage to the foundation of dispensatinoalism. If one wants to attempt to argue that G-d has progressively revealed in greater clarity his covenant relationship with man I will heartily agree. I reject the notion of dispensational era's which is a foundational precept of dispensationalism.

I am rather much of the position that the Torah was originally offered to mankind as a whole and man rejected it. At the end the ONLY one walking with G-d was Noah.... after the flood it works its way to Abraham as man continued to reject Adonai. After Israel was led out of Egypt they were given Torah.

Ecclesiasties tells us: That which has been will be again. 1:9 That which has been is that which will be,
And that which has been done is that which will be done.
So there is nothing new under the sun.

as well as 3:14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. 15That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.

What is unmistakably clear is that during the millennial reign is that the Torah will be in full effect. That if a nation fails to observe the Feasts of G-d that rain will be withheld from that land. Messiah himself declared that the Torah will NOT pass away until Heaven and Earth pass away. Ezekiel, Micha speak about this... In fact, the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel go into great detail about this...

I do not see this as G-d changing but rather that the REVELATION is clarified. IOW, we are to walk in Torah obedience as Messiah did.... and NOT as the Rabbinical tradition dictated.

and if "heaven and earth" were the mosaic covenant and the 2nd temple and not the physical heavens and not the physical earth - isaiah 51:15-16; isaiah 65:1-23; jeremiah 31:35-36 it makes passages such as matthew 5:17-18; matthew 21:43; galatians 5:1-6; hebrews 8:13 much more understandable and relevent given there is no more contradictory confusion especially over matthew 5:17-18. such crystal clear clarity!

the mosaic covenant is dead and buried nearly 2,000 years ago.

jeremiah 31:31-34 (new covenant) "vs" jeremiah 31:35-36 (heaven and earth - old covenant - matthew 21:43 & hebrews 8:13 & colossians 3:11)

 

[Biblewriter]

Did either of them teach that modern Israelites would come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, found in the words of Christ at Matthew 26:28, and "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6?

Or did they claim that God is going back to the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai covenant 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ, even though the New Blood Covenant is "everlasting" (Hebrews 12:24 and Hebrews 13:20) and is also found in Revelation 12:11, in those under the Blood of the Lamb?

You are arguing with an imaginary foe. You are attacking what you imagine Dispensationalists teach, not with what they actually teach. The doctrines you are attacking are taught by no one that Dispensationalists respect. It it taught only by a fringe element like John Hagee.

 

[BABerean2]

You are arguing with an imaginary foe. You are attacking what you imagine Dispensationalists teach, not with what they actually teach. The doctrines you are attacking are taught by no one that Dispensationalists respect. It it taught only by a fringe element like John Hagee.

Sometimes it is difficult to know what Dispensationalists believe.

The book "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost presents what seems to be the Classic form of modern Dispensational Theology. It is one of the sources accepted by many mainstream Dispensationalists.

I also have Dr. Charles Ryrie's book "Dispensationalism"


Give us your version of what Dispensationalists teach, if you think I am misrepresenting the doctrine.

Do you believe the New Covenant Church ends at the pretrib rapture of the Church?

Do you believe people are saved outside of the New Covenant Church during the tribulation?

Are people saved by "Grace" during the tribulation period?

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Sometimes it is difficult to know what Dispensationalists believe.

The book "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost presents what seems to be the Classic form of modern Dispensational Theology. It is one of the sources accepted by many mainstream Dispensationalists.

I also have Dr. Charles Ryrie's book "Dispensationalism"


Give us your version of what Dispensationalists teach, if you think I am misrepresenting the doctrine.

Do you believe the New Covenant Church ends at the pretrib rapture of the Church?

Do you believe people are saved outside of the New Covenant Church during the tribulation?

Are people saved by "Grace" during the tribulation period?

.

Actually, Dwight Pentecost significantly revised the concepts of dispensationalism, as taught in the nineteenth century. But that is neither here nor there.

The problem is that you are reacting to your interpretation of what Dispensationalists say, rather then to what they say.

In regard to end times, Dispensationalists teach that the entire church is taken to heaven before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week. Many of them think that the week begins immediately after the rapture, but the better taught ones do not say this.

Dispensationalists teach that the church is no longer on earth after that time, but they do not say that he New Covenant no longer exists.

Dispensationalists hold that many will turn to the Lord after the church is removed from the earth, but that these people will not be part of the church, as such. But they DO NOT teach that anyone will ever be saved except through a true faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalists teach that the New Covenant will continue to be in effect throughout Daniel's seventieth week, and on through the Millennium. And they teach that no one has ever been or ever will be saved except by grace through faith.

 

[random person]

Actually, Dwight Pentecost significantly revised the concepts of dispensationalism, as taught in the nineteenth century. But that is neither here nor there.

The problem is that you are reacting to your interpretation of what Dispensationalists say, rather then to what they say.

In regard to end times, Dispensationalists teach that the entire church is taken to heaven before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week. Many of them think that the week begins immediately after the rapture, but the better taught ones do not say this.

Dispensationalists teach that the church is no longer on earth after that time, but they do not say that he New Covenant no longer exists.

Dispensationalists hold that many will turn to the Lord after the church is removed from the earth, but that these people will not be part of the church, as such. But they DO NOT teach that anyone will ever be saved except through a true faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalists teach that the New Covenant will continue to be in effect throughout Daniel's seventieth week, and on through the Millennium. And they teach that no one has ever been or ever will be saved except by grace through faith.

there goes dispensationalism again - here little there little

what about isaiah 9:7?

what about ephesians 3:21?

what about romans 8:9?

what about 2 thessalonians 1:4-10? paul speaks about the revelation (apokalypsei - strongs #602) of jesus christ coming to give rest/relief to the thessalonian christians but according to dispensationalism shouldnt they already be long dead or raptured away and miss the great tribulation and revelation (apokalypsei) of jesus christ?

in 2 thessalonians 1:7 rest/relief was translated from the greek word "anesis" (strongs #425) which means relief, remission, indulgence, freedom, rest. christ is coming to give anesis to the thessalonian christians for their persecution and tribulation!

 

[BABerean2]

Actually, Dwight Pentecost significantly revised the concepts of dispensationalism, as taught in the nineteenth century. But that is neither here nor there.

The problem is that you are reacting to your interpretation of what Dispensationalists say, rather then to what they say.

In regard to end times, Dispensationalists teach that the entire church is taken to heaven before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week. Many of them think that the week begins immediately after the rapture, but the better taught ones do not say this.

Dispensationalists teach that the church is no longer on earth after that time, but they do not say that he New Covenant no longer exists.

Dispensationalists hold that many will turn to the Lord after the church is removed from the earth, but that these people will not be part of the church, as such. But they DO NOT teach that anyone will ever be saved except through a true faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalists teach that the New Covenant will continue to be in effect throughout Daniel's seventieth week, and on through the Millennium. And they teach that no one has ever been or ever will be saved except by grace through faith.

You have just identified a major error with the doctrine.

The Church of Jesus Christ is made up of those in the New Blood Covenant of Grace.

You cannot have one on the earth without the other.

There is zero text in the New Testament, which is another name for the New Covenant, that says the Church will come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Dispensationalists commonly teach that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will cease with the removal of the Church.

However, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit if an essential part of the New Covenant.
Again, you cannot have one without the other.


1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


1Co_3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


1Co_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



2Co_3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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[Biblewriter]

You are still not fighting against what we teach, but against your interpretation of the results of what we teach.