What is the basis of anti-dispensationalism?

MWood

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The basis of any "anti" is the frame of reference it is approached from, whether said frame, bias, or premise, or perspective is for or against what it is looking at, as well as whether or not one is aware one is being guided by said bias.

Matt. 16/Acts 2 Dispensationalism are subject to that. As are Acts 9 and Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

As are Amilliannialism, Preterism, and all the rest.

What information is gathered after one has decided on one of those, is impacted by the particular bias.

Intuitions arrived at from the particular synthesis looking at things from one of those above biases.

How does one free oneself of the error that can lead to?

By approaching a passage on its own merit regardless of one's chosen perspective.

My chosen "perspective" is, for example, Acts 9, also known as Mid-Acts - the distinction between what in Scripture was Prophesied [Prophecy] and that in Scripture which was kept secret til the Apostle Paul [the Mystery].

That is a distinction different from what the Mt. 16/Acts 2 Dispensationalist means when he speaks of "Prophecy," for example.

And that is going to result in difference in understanding some things in Scripture.

All schools of thought have these kinds of distinctions.

An overall perspective is helpful for its automatic synthesis of many things intoone, overall premise from which one can deduce various componants without having to check and recheck every knook and cranny said deduction might call for without it.

And yet, therein lies an important problem; often - very often - a blinding one...

The absence of the awareness of the need to nevertheless allow Scripture to render its own, intended sense by approaching outside of preferred persoective other than the simple laws of grammar, that the words through which the Holy Ghost teacheth the things of God, be allowed to do so.

For me, such moments call for my temporarily putting aside my Mid-Acts Perspective until I get at the intended sense of the passage. Only afterwards do I look for where it fits within my Mid-Acts Perspective, a perspective which I arrived at by this same means - pasages on their own merit, yea, or nay as to Mid-Acts.

An example is Romans 10:18. I can take it as it APPEARS, or, I can ask "what's it actually talking about - are there other passages that might shed light on it?"

The thing I do is to leave such things at that until more time in Scripture has resulted in awareness of more and more and more passages that arise from my memory due to time in Scripture - thus, why I harp on this over time in books supposedly about Scripture.

As a result, passages like Psalm 19 arise from my memory to make increase in my understanding by that which every member of Scripture - other, related passages - supplieth.

That is what arises - not Dr. So and so, the church fathers, the Greek and all these other SECONDARY resources that far too many turn into their idols, thus, their lack of any true understanding, together with their arrogance and inability to allow correction.

Its really that simple - in Romans 10, Paul is dealing with the issue that Israel had known the will of God even before the Law - which is why he connects that to Psalm 19.

And Psalm 19 is the same issue of Romans 1, as to the witness of God via creation.

One cannot arrive at that though, when one approaches it from the bias of one's chosen perspective - be that Acts 2, Mid-Acts, Preterist, Partial this, partial that, or what have you...

There is a principle in this example. The example itself is not my intended point.

Apply it, and you end up at Mid-Acts.

Negate it and you end up at "books about," and at "well, the Greek this, the Greek that..."

In short, you end up at various means of fitting a thing into your chosen bias.

You end up at an intuitive synthesis of the things of God of your own school, not His...

And after having said all of that...
It really boils down to Prov 3:5...Trust in the Lord with all thine heart: and lean not unto thine own understanding.
And be very sure that you don't use someone elses' understanding!
 
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Danoh

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And after having said all of that...
It really boils down to Prov 3:5...Trust in the Lord with all thine heart: and lean not unto thine own understanding.
And be very sure that you don't use someone elses' understanding!

But first one has to set out to get at what trusting in the LORD, let alone, with all thine heart, constitutes - what that really is, what objective standard - likewise as to what is to constitute true, objective understanding.

I'm Mid-Acts Cessasionist, thus, for me, it's not like the Spirit will lead one unto all understanding outside of His Word objectively studied.

That is what Cessationism is - the understanding from Scripture objectively studied out - that God reached that intended point on His part where; satisfied with His having revealed what He had intended to - what the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4 refers to as "the [epignosis, or full knowledge] of the Son of God," satisfied that said "perfect" was now in place, what remained now, was for His saints to study "All scripture... for instruction in righteousness," for by it "the man of God" is made likwise "perfect" that is "throughly furnished unto all good works," 2 Tim. 3.

Example, where is God working today?

Per Scripture in light of the above - the answer is that today God is working in the inward man; which is renewed in knowledge according to, or in line with, the image of him, that He Who created him, makes known through His Word, 2 Cor. 4:16-18; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 3:18.
 
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Danoh

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While the assertion "objectively studied" is itself the assertion of actual, objective standards, not the mere lip service to this phrase that so many pay while obviously oblivious to what said standards might actually be.

Often, what goes for the "objective" assertion is no more than the bias that one has been objevtive because one has believed one has been.

The Mid-Acts camp is not oblivious to this either, thus, not only its disparate differences within the various loyalties, but the obvious false basis for fellowship at times.

Threads all over forums abound in this error.

While to state otherwise is taken as arrogance...
 
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Rev20

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First, it is a simple, undeniable, fact that the gospel has not even yet reached the entire world. And second, the fact that it went out "to the whole world" never even so much as implied that it had reached every spot in the world.

Was that Jesus' intention, or is that a necessary interpretation in order to "fit" your doctrine with some "supporting" scripture?

More to the point: are you implying Paul was lying, Biblewriter.

Clement didn't think so.

:)
.
 
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Biblewriter

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Was that Jesus' intention, or is that a necessary interpretation in order to "fit" your doctrine with some "supporting" scripture?

More to the point: are you implying Paul was lying, Biblewriter.

Clement didn't think so.

:)
.

Neither Paul nor Clement even implied that the gospel had actually reached the entire world.
 
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Rev20

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Neither Paul nor Clement even implied that the gospel had actually reached the entire world.

Biblewriter, the way I read these verses, the gospel was preached unto the ends of the world, in all the world, and made known to all nations; and it was preached unto every creature which is under heaven:

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." -- Rom 1:8

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." -- Rom 10:17-18

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" -- Rom 16:25-26

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" -- Col 1:5-6

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" -- Col 1:23

Do you know something that Paul's epistles are not telling us?

:)
.
 
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Biblewriter

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Biblewriter, the way I read these verses, the gospel was preached unto the ends of the world, in all the world, and made known to all nations; and it was preached unto every creature which is under heaven:
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." -- Rom 1:8
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." -- Rom 10:17-18
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" -- Rom 16:25-26
"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" -- Col 1:5-6
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" -- Col 1:23
Do you know something that Paul's epistles are not telling us?

:)
.

Are you actually foolish enough to even imagine that these words mean that there was not a single individual in the entire world that did not hear the gospel in that day?
 
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Danoh

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Rev20 distorts the actual sense of those passages in the exact same way he distorts the intended sense of Romans 10:18, despite my post on it otherwise.

Obviously, he and his read the same books - they all this same habit the Lord had lamented - "pipe to us."

Which they then read their notions into, as they do the Scripture.

Man, Romans 16:26 is speaking of the means, of the intended end result, not of the end result.

But, distort away, Rev20, and company - man, talk about turning an idelogy into an idol - you and yours take the cake - and its not even a real cake!
 
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msortwell

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". . . Are you actually foolish enough . . .?"

" . . . Turning an ideology into an idol - you and yours take the cake . . . "

You may want to set aside the ad hominem attacks. Those following the thread might perceive desparation on your side.
 
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Rev20

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Are you actually foolish enough to even imagine that these words mean that there was not a single individual in the entire world that did not hear the gospel in that day?

It appears you are attempting to qualify the prophecies of Jesus Christ with dispensational talking points under the pretense that the prophecies are unfulfilled. If so, why would you do such a thing?

The fact remains, the prophecy to preach the gospel to all the world (Matt 24:14) and to every creature (Mark 16:15) was fulfilled in the days of the Apostle Paul (Col 1:5-6, 23.) Jesus also prophesied that when Matt 24:14 was fulfilled, the end would come, and it did. The end of the "Jewish Age" occurred around AD70, within the generation of Christ and his disciples, right on schedule (Matt 24:34.)


:)
 
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Biblewriter

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It appears you are attempting to qualify the prophecies of Jesus Christ with dispensational talking points under the pretense that the prophecies are unfulfilled. If so, why would you do such a thing?

The fact remains, the prophecy to preach the gospel to all the world (Matt 24:14) and to every creature (Mark 16:15) was fulfilled in the days of the Apostle Paul (Col 1:5-6, 23.) Jesus also prophesied that when Matt 24:14 was fulfilled, the end would come, and it did. The end of the "Jewish Age" occurred around AD70, within the generation of Christ and his disciples, right on schedule (Matt 24:34.)


:)
The only pretense involved here is the systematic claims of Preterists that prophecies have been fulfilled when the historical records flatly contradict approximately 90% of the details contained in most of the prophecies allegedly fulfilled.
 
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Danoh

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Biblewriter, the way I read these verses, the gospel was preached unto the ends of the world, in all the world, and made known to all nations; and it was preached unto every creature which is under heaven:

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." -- Rom 1:8

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." -- Rom 10:17-18

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" -- Rom 16:25-26

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" -- Col 1:5-6

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" -- Col 1:23

Do you know something that Paul's epistles are not telling us?

:)
.

Yeah, I do - they don't tell us the Body of Christ began on an Israelite Feast Day. But even then you are off base as to what gospel, as well as to what extent any of them were preached.
 
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Rev20

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The only pretense involved here is the systematic claims of Preterists that prophecies have been fulfilled when the historical records flatly contradict approximately 90% of the details contained in most of the prophecies allegedly fulfilled.

Which historical records, Biblewriter? Please provide historical references to substantiate your "90%" claim. I am looking forward to your "proof."

Also, please provide historical references to support your pretense that Paul's statements in Romans and Colossians on the fulfillment of Matt 24:14 were misleading. That is what you are implying, is it not?

:)
.
 
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Biblewriter

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Which historical records, Biblewriter? Please provide historical references to substantiate your "90%" claim. I am looking forward to your "proof."

Also, please provide historical references to support your pretense that Paul's statements in Romans and Colossians on the fulfillment of Matt 24:14 were misleading. That is what you are implying, is it not?

:)
.

That has been the case with every prophecy that you have so far claimed had already been fulfilled. And I do not have the time to continue to answer your cavils.

I did not so much as imply that anything in the Bible was misleading. I implied that you were pretending it meant something it did not even suggest.
 
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Rev20

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That has been the case with every prophecy that you have so far claimed had already been fulfilled. And I do not have the time to continue to answer your cavils.

I did not so much as imply that anything in the Bible was misleading. I implied that you were pretending it meant something it did not even suggest.

So, when Paul said the Gospel was preached in all the world, and to every creature under heaven, he didn't really mean it?

God help you, Biblewriter.

:)
.
 
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Biblewriter

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So, when Paul said the Gospel was preached in all the world, and to every creature under heaven, he didn't really mean it?

God help you, Biblewriter.

:)
.

He meant exactly what he said. But this comment simply does not even imply that the gospel had actually reached every living individual.

I am not going to continue this childsh argument.
 
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Rev20

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He meant exactly what he said. But this comment simply does not even imply that the gospel had actually reached every living individual.

Maybe we are not communicating, Biblewriter. Do you believe that Matthew 24:14 and Mark 16:15 have been fulfilled, or not?
.

I am not going to continue this childsh argument.

A more adult tone to the conversation will be much appreciated.

:)
.
 
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Biblewriter

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Maybe we are not communicating, Biblewriter. Do you believe that Matthew 24:14 and Mark 16:15 have been fulfilled, or not?
.



A more adult tone to the conversation will be much appreciated.

:)
.

Mark 16:15 is still in the process of being fulfilled. And Matthew 24:14 refers to a time that has not yet come.
 
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Danoh

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Biblewriter, the way I read these verses, the gospel was preached unto the ends of the world, in all the world, and made known to all nations; and it was preached unto every creature which is under heaven:

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." -- Rom 1:8

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." -- Rom 10:17-18

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" -- Rom 16:25-26

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" -- Col 1:5-6

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" -- Col 1:23

Do you know something that Paul's epistles are not telling us?

:)
.

None of those passages intend the sense you assert.

In another passage he relates "that your faith is spoken of everywhere."

The intended sense is the expanse not the full extent. As when a news cast relates "the nation mourns the passing of..." we know the entire nation is not meant. As when President Kennedy and Dr. King Jr. were assasinated - not everybody in the nation mourned their passing.

And the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY is not the same as the preaching of Him as Israel's Messiah.

Their HOPE both differs, and changed.

Whereas, where Paul relates "yea, their sound went out," etc., he is relating that passage in Psalms; which refers to the witness of all creation concerning God.

Paul uses it in the same sense as using a truth commonly held as true. As while, reminding someone they will have to adjust to the pwers that be and we say, "you can fight city hall, ya know" - city hall is not what we are talking about, is it?

"Did not Israel know, yea, their sound went..." he's applying a common truth, not saying that the gospel was made known to all the world - its Romans 1 - Israel knew GOD exists...

He then goes into how that God made awareness of His purpose a bit more intimate where that nation was concerened -to the point of having provoked them to jealousy thru a believing remnant from among their own considered no people by their own, John 1.

I could go on, as there is so much there, but the point is that yours is, at best, a very surface level, first impression understanding/reading into of these passages, while, at worst, a distortion of them.

Problem is you are not challenged by this to consider its words; you learned your Preterist view, had no means of checking your math before allowing it while learning your Preterist view, and as a result, because it made sense to you given the vaccum you studied under, it is now all you can see as you "glance over" passages.

Not trying to insult you; just trying to point all that out to you.
 
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I rarely comment on these forums anymore, I merely read them to see what others think when it comes to Theological issues. What I do not understand is how we, as Christians, would even consider arguing with each other. If someone believes different than I, so what? That is their right to do so. No one is going to change someone else's mind with their argument. All this does is sow discord amongst each other, even though some may believe that it is their "duty" to make others believe as they do. When we partake in polemics, it should be through love. This is not the case here at all. It boils down to being flat-out ungodly toward other believers. This place is a festering sore for discord within the body of Christ. What I see here is simply people "showing off" their intelligence, and not really accomplishing anything that can be even remotely Christ-like. Let's keep in mind Eph. 4:29, "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear" (NASB).
 
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