What is salvation?

[Kersh]

It actually means to be separated from the world unto the purposes of God...

Arsenios

Two ways of expressing the same concept. Yours I'd agree with definitionally. But, mine was intended to be descriptive.

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[Arsenios]

Contending for the Truth and being contentious are two very different things. There are some here who mistake one for the other. I will not participate in such foolishness.

Hard to be contentious without contending...

Almost invites antinomialism...

Just a mumble from the peanut gallery...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Two ways of expressing the same concept. Yours I'd agree with definitionally. But, mine was intended to be descriptive.

'Separated' permits degrees of separation, so that as one attains greater virtue in the things of God, one becomes holier... So that it is not rigorously either-or...

Arsenios

 

[Marvin Knox]

Rev 3:5
He that is overcoming [sins/temptations],
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

The text states that the one who is overcoming [demonic principalities] is the one whose name shall not be blotted out of the Book of Life... This would seem to mean that the one who, say, STOPS OVERCOMING, is in danger of being taken out of that Book.....................

The text simply says that the one who overcomes will not have his name blotted out of the book of life.

It says nothing about how that overcoming happens - either through Christ's finished work, ones own work through cooperation in the sanctification process or both.

It also says nothing about who's name will be blotted out of the book of life or even if anyone's name will be blotted out.

It also says nothing about the nature of the book of life itself. That is to say - what the name in the book signifies or when it was written in or any other such questions.

It may "seem to mean" any number of things - depending on one's particular theological perspective. But it does not say that it means any of those things.

We only have what we have to work with in the limited scripture itself. Having said that - other scriptures can and perhaps will shed light on what it means.

 

[Arsenios]

The text simply says that the one who overcomes will not have his name blotted out of the book of life.

It says nothing about how that overcoming happens - either through Christ's finished work, ones own work through cooperation in the sanctification process or both.

It also says nothing about who's name will be blotted out of the book of life or even if anyone's name will be blotted out.

It also says nothing about the nature of the book of life itself. That is to say - what the name in the book signifies or when it was written in or any other such questions.

It may "seem to mean" any number of things - depending on one's particular theological perspective. But it does not say that it means any of those things.

We only have what we have to work with in the limited scripture itself. Having said that - other scriptures can and perhaps will shed light on what it means.

It simply says that the one overcoming will not have his name blotted out of the Book of Life...

He that is overcoming [sins/temptations],
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

I suppose we could augment with Christ's words concerning how long a person should be "overcoming"...

Mar 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that shall endure unto the end,
the same shall be saved.

Overcoming is well understood in the Church - In the broadest terms, it means overcoming the world, as in where Jesus said to His disciples:
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world is coming,
and he has nothing in me.

And this because Christ had overcome the world...
Derivatively, it means overcoming sins and temptations...
"In the world, you WILL find tribulation..."

Arsenios

 

[Marvin Knox]

It simply says that the one overcoming will not have his name blotted out of the Book of Life...

Agreed! That's what I said as well.

I suppose we could augment with Christ's words concerning how long a person should be "overcoming"...

I suppose we could. I'm not sure why we would though since the passage doesn't address that.

Obviously it would be best if one always overcame during the sanctification process. That's not always the case, of course.

Of course, some would say that we will continue to overcome until the end since it is Christ who is at work in us as we work out our salvation to do His will.

Mar 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be save

This passage - much as the other passage - simply tells us that the one who endures unto the end will be saved. It says nothing about who will not be saved.

Overcoming is well understood in the Church - In the broadest terms, it means overcoming the world, as in where Jesus said to His disciples:
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world is coming,
and he has nothing in me.

Agreed! Of course it does.

And this because Christ had overcome the world...

Exactly!

Which is why many say that we are guaranteed to overcome the world in the end simply because it is ultimately Christ who is working out our salvation through the ongoing sanctification process.

He is not only the author of our faith. He is also the finisher of our faith.

He who began a good work in us will complete it in the end.

That is, after all, the Father's will. Namely that of all the Father has given to Christ He should lose none.

Thank God for His promises and that He has not left Himself without witness in His Word as to His eternal purposes for us whom He has laid hold of by His grace.

 

[fhansen]

The text simply says that the one who overcomes will not have his name blotted out of the book of life.

It says nothing about how that overcoming happens - either through Christ's finished work, ones own work through cooperation in the sanctification process or both.

It also says nothing about who's name will be blotted out of the book of life or even if anyone's name will be blotted out.

It also says nothing about the nature of the book of life itself. That is to say - what the name in the book signifies or when it was written in or any other such questions.

It may "seem to mean" any number of things - depending on one's particular theological perspective. But it does not say that it means any of those things.

We only have what we have to work with in the limited scripture itself. Having said that - other scriptures can and perhaps will shed light on what it means.

The need for overcoming sin/being pure, along with the possibility of a believer failing to do so, is all over Revelation-and the rest of the NT as well:

"Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." Rev 2:4-7

"The one who sat on the throne* said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” 6He said to me, “They are accomplished. I [am] the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.7The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. 8But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”" Rev 21:5-6

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”" 2 Pet 2:20-22

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Pet 4:18-19

"See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.a2Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed* we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.b3Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure." 1 John 3:1-3

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-17

"Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:24-25

 

[Arsenios]

The need for overcoming sin/being pure, along with the possibility of a believer failing to do so, is all over Revelation-and the rest of the NT as well:

"Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." Rev 2:4-7

"The one who sat on the throne* said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” 6He said to me, “They are accomplished. I [am] the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.7The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. 8But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”" Rev 21:5-6

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”" 2 Pet 2:20-22

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Pet 4:18-19

"See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.a2Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed* we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.b3Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure." 1 John 3:1-3

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-17

"Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:24-25

It is a great call to repentance in 7 different venues of each Church falling away from the Faith of Christ which He gave to them... Christ here shows that it is up to each person to turn, or more properly here - RETURN - to repentance... Even if He removes the Lampstand, even so, the one overcoming still gains the reward... And is not blotted out of the Book of Life, as ARE BLOTTED OUT those who do NOT return to repentance from their falling away...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Of course, some would say that we will continue to overcome until the end since it is Christ who is at work in us as we work out our salvation to do His will.

Those err, for Christ clearly is exhorting by the threat of blotting out the names of those who do not keep on repenting...

He is not only the author of our faith. He is also the finisher of our faith.

Yet it is WE who are the DOERS of the Faith...

He who began a good work in us will complete it in the end.

Yet He set it up for us to do, that He should complete it...

That is, after all, the Father's will. Namely that of all the Father has given to Christ He should lose none.

Referring to the 12... Minus one...

Many are called...

Few are chosen...

Because few keep on overcoming...

Thank God for His promises and that He has not left Himself without witness in His Word as to His eternal purposes for us whom He has laid hold of by His grace.

Glory to God in ALL things...

Arsenios

 

[EmSw]

Which is why many say that we are guaranteed to overcome the world in the end simply because it is ultimately Christ who is working out our salvation through the ongoing sanctification process.

He is not only the author of our faith. He is also the finisher of our faith.

He who began a good work in us will complete it in the end.

That is, after all, the Father's will. Namely that of all the Father has given to Christ He should lose none.

Why is Christ working now, if He finished it on the cross? Did He finish His work on the cross or not?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The need for overcoming sin/being pure, along with the possibility of a believer failing to do so, is all over Revelation-and the rest of the NT as well:

"Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." Rev 2:4-7

"The one who sat on the throne* said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” 6He said to me, “They are accomplished. I [am] the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.7The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. 8But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”" Rev 21:5-6

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”" 2 Pet 2:20-22

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Pet 4:18-19

"See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.a2Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed* we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.b3Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure." 1 John 3:1-3

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-17

"Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:24-25

Agreed! Of course!

Since your post was addressed to me - I assume that you think that I have not read those passages or that I disagree with them somehow.

Is that right? If so where did you get such an idea?

 

[Marvin Knox]

It is a great call to repentance in 7 different venues of each Church falling away from the Faith of Christ which He gave to them... Christ here shows that it is up to each person to turn, or more properly here - RETURN - to repentance... Even if He removes the Lampstand, even so, the one overcoming still gains the reward... And is not blotted out of the Book of Life, as ARE BLOTTED OUT those who do NOT return to repentance from their falling away... Arsenios

You are talking about the blessing and cursing of the 7 churches here, right?

 

[fhansen]

Agreed! Of course!

Since your post was addressed to me - I assume that you think that I have not read those passages or that I disagree with them somehow.

Is that right? If so where did you get such an idea?

Those verses are stern warnings and admonitions-to us! With the loss of salvation at stake. There's nothing to second-guess; they say nothing about not taking those admonitions seriously since, if you know you're saved after all, Christ will work it all out for you anyway. God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Meanwhile we work out our salvation with He who works in us-with a degree, at least, of fear and trembling.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Those err, for Christ clearly is exhorting by the threat of blotting out the names of those who do not keep on repenting...

Not so.

You are reading into the text and assuming what is not warranted.

I thought that might be where you were coming from. But I didn't want to assume until you said as much.

It is best not to go beyond what is written.

Yet it is WE who are the DOERS of the Faith...
Yet He set it up for us to do, that He should complete it...

Yes. Of course. Who said otherwise?

Referring to the 12... Minus one...

And all of the rest of the elect or chosen as we are all called over and over again in the scriptures.

Many are called...
Few are chosen.../QUOTE]
Of course. Who said otherwise?

Because few keep on overcoming...

We are chosen first. We are called second. We overcome third.

You've gotten the logical cart before the horse.

We are not chosen and called because we overcome. That is not a logical construct.

We overcome because we have been chosen before the foundation of the world and because we have been called in time and space.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why is Christ working now, if He finished it on the cross? Did He finish His work on the cross or not?

Read your Bible.

It says that it is Christ who is at work in us.

"Why is Christ working now?" Why are you asking me? I'm just repeating what it says.

Last answer to you. You are just being argumentative and asking stupid things now.

"Gabriel" - - you really should read what a person says and think about it before you "like" their post so quickly.

 

[Marvin Knox]

There's nothing to second-guess; they say nothing about not taking those admonitions seriously since, if you know you're saved after all, Christ will work it all out for you anyway. God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Meanwhile we work out our salvation with He who works in us-with a degree, at least, of fear and trembling.

Of course they are stern warnings and admonitions to us. You had the first statement right when you said it.

Then you added your personal opinion about loss of salvation and went beyond what is written.

There's nothing to second-guess; they say nothing about not taking those admonitions seriously

Agreed. There's nothing to second guess.

Who said not to take these admonitions seriously? Certainly I didn't.

.......... if you know you're saved after all, Christ will work it all out for you anyway.

Of course. That's basic Christian teaching.

God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

Of course.

The scriptures clearly tell us to not try to speak with certainty or we may be speaking against wheat when we think we are speaking against weeds.

Meanwhile we work out our salvation with He who works in us-with a degree, at least, of fear and trembling.

Of course - as I have said many time now.

 

[fhansen]

Of course they are stern warnings and admonitions to us. You had the first statement right when you said it.

Then you added your personal opinion about loss of salvation and went beyond what is written.

Agreed. There's nothing to second guess.

Who said not to take these admonitions seriously? Certainly I didn't.

Of course. That's basic Christian teaching.

Of course.

The scriptures clearly tell us to not try to speak with certainty or we may be speaking against wheat when we think we are speaking against weeds.

Of course - as I have said many time now.

Then what's the point? If God, alone, knows whose names are written in the BoL and whose are not, then we don't know with 100% certainty whether or not we're saved in the end. So whether or not names can be blotted out is rendered a completely moot point.

And my personal opinion has nothing to do with it. Those verses cited and many others speak for themselves about the possibility of losing salvation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

And my personal opinion has nothing to do with it. Those verses cited and many others speak for themselves about the possibility of losing salvation.

The verses cited do not speak about the possibility of losing salvation.

Cite verses which teach loss of salvation if there are any.

But don't take verses which don't and say that they do - the way you did.

 

[fhansen]

The verses cited do not speak about the possibility of losing salvation.

Cite verses which teach loss of salvation if there are any.

But don't take verses which don't and say that they do - the way you did.

Now that's opinion. I think your re-reading of those verses should be sufficient. But here are some more anyway:

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

“A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture.

11“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Luke 8:7-6 & 11-13

 

[EmSw]

Read your Bible.

It says that it is Christ who is at work in us.

"Why is Christ working now?" Why are you asking me? I'm just repeating what it says.

Last answer to you. You are just being argumentative and asking stupid things now.

"Gabriel" - - you really should read what a person says and think about it before you "like" their post so quickly.

HOWEVER, you said trust in the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross. Is it finished or not? Are you just playing word games with us?

Perhaps you can show us where it says to trust in the finished work on the cross, Marvin! As someone said, "It is best not to go beyond what is written".