What is salvation?

Kersh

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Even you agree it's not faith alone that saves, but faith plus resulting works.
Faith, by definition, leads to works. There is no such thing as faith that doesn't lead to works. So, to say that faith that leads to works saves, is redundant and confusing, if not deceptive.

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Kersh

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Yet, from the time of Jesus until today, many had/have faith and were/are not willing and determined to obey Him. If that were so, we would have a very different church than what we see today.
People who are not willing and determined to obey don't have faith in that which they refuse to obey. Many in the church do not have faith in Christ.

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Freedom Now

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I still wonder how he gets the Son MADE a covenant with the Father. Let me put the verses here and see what it says.

Psalm 89
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him (David):
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him (David).
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him (David); nor the son of wickedness afflict him (David).
23 And I will beat down his (David's) foes before his (David's) face, and plague them that hate him (David).
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him (David): and in my name shall his (David's) horn be exalted.
25 I will set his (David's) hand also in the sea, and his (David's) right hand in the rivers.
26 He (David) shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him (David) my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him (David) for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him (David).


Why would anyone want to suddenly insert Jesus into this passage when it is plainly speaking of David? Is it okay to take a verse out of context when you want it to confirm your doctrine? Why not look at the context around firstborn?

Also, it does not say the God MADE a covenant with the firstborn; it says the covenant (already made) will stand fast with him. Stand fast is to confirm, support, nourish, believe, nurse, and verified.

Verse 3 does say He MADE a covenant, but David is clearly in view.

I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Maybe he got his claim somewhere else.




It is very simple, ...

Man comes up with a theology that puts God in a box, and then uses the script to

prove that theology, whether it is by honest sinful human intent or otherwise, we are not

quite sure, but we know and see that the script can be twisted and bent to our human

wisdom.

Then to top it off , we say this is what God says in the script and stamp his name on man's

deception, ( I think there is a commandment not to use his name in vain.


Personally, I call this exercise, ......Man with a plan,


If we truly would want to serve our Lord, we would start with His words, and from there take Paul,

Peter, James, John's words and understand them in the light of Jesus words.

That would save us a lot misunderstandings.


Very simple, if you want to be a follower of Christ (disciple) start with Jesus's words,...

He who loses his life will gain life....

Whoever does not renounce ALL that he has, cannot be My disciple. ...

Jesus said to those who believed in Him,...IF you CONTINUE in My word,you are truly My disciples,
and you will know the Truth and the Truth will make you free.

He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. ...

For the kingdom of God is at hand, Repent therefore.......



These are just a few words of our Lord, and if we then start viewing other scriptures through the words
of Jesus, then we would not have every wind of doctrine under the sun....


May God bless you
 
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EmSw

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One of the great lessons of the O.T. is that the threat of the wrath of God does not lead people to real obedience to God's commandments. In addition - whatever obedience is obtained through fear of retribution is as filthy rags before God in so far as salvation from eternal damnation goes.

Obedience IS NOT unrighteousness; disobedience is unrighteousness. Stubborn and evil need fear of retribution for obedience. This is given time after time in the OT. If we actually look at Isaiah 64, we will see what unrighteousness is.

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness, who remembers You in Your ways. You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—in these ways we continue; and we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities.


Whose unrighteousness is like filthy rags? It plainly tells us - THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN SIN! Those who do not continue in sin, are the ones God meets, those who rejoice and do righteousness. Those who are unclean, that is, continue in sin fade like a leaf and their INIQUITIES have taken them away. These unclean people do not call on God's name, therefore God has hidden His face from and they are consumed BECAUSE OF THEIR INIQUITIES.

Context, context, context!

On the other hand God's forgiveness and our reconciliation to Him do lead us to real obedience to God's commandments.

"Do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" Romans 2:4

Forgiveness comes from repentance, so it is repentance and behavior which is appropriate to repentance which leads to obedience. Repentance from what, you might ask. Repentance from sin, and behavior appropriate to repentance, that is, NOT CONTINUING in the sin from which you repent.
 
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EmSw

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Faith, by definition, leads to works. There is no such thing as faith that doesn't lead to works. So, to say that faith that leads to works saves, is redundant and confusing, if not deceptive.

So how do you not equate doing good with salvation? It is faith and works which is alive.
 
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Kersh

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So how do you not equate doing good with salvation? It is faith and works which is alive.
Salvation is not based on good works. It comes from faith. There are many reasons a person may do good things. Faith is but one of those reasons. Although change in one's actions is an inevitable fruit of faith, this is not instantaneous. I am more mature in my actions than I was a few years ago, but my faith was no less strong then. Faith has been maturing me throughout. If I were to equate salvation with works, I'd say I am more saved now than I was then. But, that would be a ridiculous statement. Moreover, the thief on the cross died hours after coming to faith, but was no less saved by his lack of good works.

So, yes there is a connection between salvation and works, but it is not a causal one. Rather, they are two fruits from the same tree, that being faith.

It is not, as you seem to say faith + works --》salvation.
It is rather faith --》 salvation & works.

Or to put another way, faith in Christ leads to justification AND sanctification.

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EmSw

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Salvation is not based on good works. It comes from faith. There are many reasons a person may do good things. Faith is but one of those reasons. Although change in one's actions is an inevitable fruit of faith, this is not instantaneous. I am more mature in my actions than I was a few years ago, but my faith was no less strong then. Faith has been maturing me throughout. If I were to equate salvation with works, I'd say I am more saved now than I was then. But, that would be a ridiculous statement. Moreover, the thief on the cross died hours after coming to faith, but was no less saved by his lack of good works.

So, yes there is a connection between salvation and works, but it is not a causal one. Rather, they are two fruits from the same tree, that being faith.

It is not, as you seem to say faith + works --》salvation.
It is rather faith --》 salvation & works.

Or to put another way, faith in Christ leads to justification AND sanctification.

If good works are missing, will a person be saved?
 
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Kersh

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If good works are missing, will a person be saved?
Possibly in rare circumstances, depending on how you define works. Is mere confession (such as that of the thief on the cross) "works"? The good works are an element of salvation, not a prerequisite.

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yeshuaslavejeff

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Define works.....
Faith operating, Faith working, actions that come from Faith,
Faith that works, or if we had a action word for Faith, I guess works is "faithing"
Is this not a basic understanding for a follower of Christ?
Not really, I think....
Some simple clarity/explanation is needed to get the point here.
 
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.Mikha'el.

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Gabriel Anton

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The Son of God entered into a covenant with the Father before the foundation of the world.

That covenant was ratified in His life here on earth as the Son of man.

All the mutual "back scratching" occurred between the Father and Son already.

As a result the Son is seated at the right hand of glory (and, incidentally, I'm seated right there with Him as His bride and part of His body).

My life is hidden with Christ and I am in covenant with the Father through my Savior - the Last Adam.

Grace is good and sweet.

We see the grace of God by beholding Jesus Christ and all that He has done for us.

I know exactly what grace is. I participate in it every day.

"...the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:17


"Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John 6:28-29

Who among us (regardless of their stance on security) would not try to do that?

I will both "daydream" about glory and I will also work out my salvation. It is He who is at work in me to do His good pleasure.

Without Him I can do nothing.

But according to some - He leavea His children when they sin and then they must work out their salvation by themselves until He decides to perhaps reengage with them - if they manage to measure up.

What utter nonsense.

Wow. Where to start?

You, in yourself, will never merit salvation.

Jesus Christ is plenty proud to do what His Father requires of Him. Namely - to lose not one of those that the Father has given to Him.

May you come to faith in the merit of Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

Only then will you be blessed of God.

Until then - the wrath of God will abide on you.

Peace be with you.

I do believe in free will. It's good to see you expressing your faith.

God bless you.
 
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Salvation is not based on good works. It comes from faith. There are many reasons a person may do good things. Faith is but one of those reasons. Although change in one's actions is an inevitable fruit of faith, this is not instantaneous. I am more mature in my actions than I was a few years ago, but my faith was no less strong then. Faith has been maturing me throughout. If I were to equate salvation with works, I'd say I am more saved now than I was then. But, that would be a ridiculous statement. Moreover, the thief on the cross died hours after coming to faith, but was no less saved by his lack of good works.

So, yes there is a connection between salvation and works, but it is not a causal one. Rather, they are two fruits from the same tree, that being faith.

It is not, as you seem to say faith + works --》salvation.
It is rather faith --》 salvation & works.

Or to put another way, faith in Christ leads to justification AND sanctification.

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Well, it depends on what works you are talking about that saves.
If you are referencing Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism (with no faith, or grace), then it is true.
For we are not saved by works in and of themselves (alone) of our own power (without God or a Savior).

If you are referencing Christ directed works (Which is a part of abiding in Christ - who is the source of our salvation), then we are indeed justified or saved by this type of work (that comes about as a natural result of having faith). This would be the type of work that Christ does within us when we cooperate with Him and His Word by faith.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is saying it is Jesus who ultimately saves. For Jesus is full of grace (John 1:14); And Jesus is our gift (2 Corinthians 9:15) (John 3:16). For salvation is not "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" like the Pharisees believed. For the Pharisees left out crying out to God as their Savior over their sins for forgiveness (See the Parable of the Tax Collector & the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14).

Christ does the good work within us. If we choose to fight against this good work within our lives and we abide in sin and go back to living like the old man in sin, will we be saved? Surely not. God is not in the business of forcing people against their will to believe in HIm or to do what He says. To believe in Jesus also includes believing in what Jesus says, too and not just believing in the person of Jesus and what He has done for us with his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

This is why James says in James 2:24 that we are justified by works (Christ directed works) and not by faith alone. James is talking about Sanctification or those believers who live out their faith with Jesus living in them; And Paul is talking about initial salvation and how we are ultimately saved (Which is Jesus Christ). So yes, works do save, but not by themselves alone. Works save when they are in Christ (God) directed works as a part of being a believer (i.e. having faith) in Jesus Christ. Sin can separate a believer from God. Be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This even applies to believers. For in Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus will send forth his angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM (anyone who claims to be of Christ) all who offend and do iniquity (sin) and cast them into the furnance of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

So in conclusion:
Paul is talking about initial salvation and how we are ultimately saved. Paul is also addressing the heresy of "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (That does not include faith or a Savior or grace). This is why Paul contrasts faith/grace with the Law so many times. There was no grace or Savior in the Pharisee religion. Only works.
However, obeying the Commands in the New Testament (And not the Laws in the Old Testament) is not in conflict with what Paul is saying. For Paul essentially says faith established the Law (Romans 3:31).
And Paul says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"
This is by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) which is defined for us in verse 1 (Romans 8:1).

James is talking about how we need to have Christ directed works within our lives as a part of our walk with Christ in our faith. That is why we cannot be justified by faith alone in our continued walk with God (as we live out our faith). For James clearly says we are justified by works and not faith alone (Which goes against those who falsely claim that we are justified by faith alone) (James 2:24). However, if one abides in Christ, the good work of Christ WILL be there. If not, then Christ does not live within a person; And one needs to prove whether or not Christ lives in them unless they are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). For without Christ, there is no life or salvation (See 1 John 5:12).

In short, Paul says:

(a) Ultimate and Initial Salvation is in Jesus Christ.
(b) Salvation is not in Man Directed Works Alone.

In short, James says:

(a) Continued Salvation (Faith lived out) is in Jesus Christ.
(b) Salvation is in having Christ Directed Works in your life as a part of having faith in Jesus and in abiding in Him.

In other words, Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and Salvation is not in Faith Alone Salvationism (That seeks to attempt to ignore God's morality or goodness, i.e. His Commands under the New Testament (And not the Old Testament)).

Side Note:

But make no mistake, though. Sin can separate a believer from God; And God is not a respecter of persons. For if a person commits horrible sins and does not repent of them, things will not go well for them when they die. For Jesus warns us within His Word that even looking upon a woman in lust can lead one to have their whole body cast into the Lake of Fire (Matthew 5:28-30); And Paul essentially says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).



...
 
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Ron Coates

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To me, there are 3 basic aspects to salvation.

1. Justification happened when I first encountered Christ. When I first believed John 3:16, my spirit was reborn. In regards to my legal standing with God, when I took Christ's payment for my sin, I was found not guilty.
2. Sanctification is the process of healing the soul. The soul consists of one's mind, will and emotions. The goal of sanctification is to crucify the carnal nature, break curses and expel the enemy. Once this process starts, it continues throughout life.
3. Glorification happens when Christ returns and we are taken up into the clouds and are given new bodies. After this time, we will always be with Him.
Justification is for the spirit. Sanctification is for the soul. Glorification is for the body.
 
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DingDing

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The Bible talks about salvation, justification, adoption, heirship, redemption, sanctification, glorification, among other terms.

What is the relationship between these concepts? Are they different ways of describing the same thing? Is salvation a general term that is summed up by two or more of the other terms?

I ask these questions because I feel like so much of the discussion of soteriology is about OSAS or eternal security vs. conditional security. But, I wonder if these terms have any meaning if we don't first identify what it means to be "saved". For example, it seems that the adoption, heirship, and redemption are all treated as part and parcel of justification. And, some would say that these are all aspects of salvation. But, what if a person who has been justified never becomes sanctified? Or is the fact that that person never becomes sanctified proof that he or she never was justified? Or are justification and sanctification two sides of the same coin? I guess I wonder if the whole debate about eternal security really comes down to how well established our understanding of all of these topics is.

Hello,
I kind of agree with the sentiment that these terms are all connected/related. I think the problem with some people is that they try too much to disconnect/distort them. Perhaps you could think of a six-sided dice. There are six sides, but each is a part of the whole. Sometimes we miss the big picture by overly distorting certain individual views. Can we really possess the whole without also possessing the parts? And if our view of certain parts is distorted, then is not our view of the whole also distorted?
 
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Arsenios

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In Revelation 3:5-6 Christ promises every true Christian that He "will not erase his name from the book of life, but will confess his name before the Father and before His angels."
Incredibly", although the text says just the opposite, some people assume that this verse teaches that a Christian’s name can be erased from the book of life.

Rev 3:5
He that is overcoming [sins/temptations],
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,

The text states that the one who is overcoming [demonic principalities] is the one whose name shall not be blotted out of the Book of Life... This would seem to mean that the one who, say, STOPS OVERCOMING, is in danger of being taken out of that Book...


I am only on page one and have not yet read the thread, but Salvation is union with God in this Life...
"And this is eternal Life, to KNOW the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ." [John}
Paul refers to it as the great Mystery, the Marriage of the Lamb...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Holiness is to live like Jesus lived, a life that, in every moment exhibits the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

It actually means to be separated from the world unto the purposes of God...

Arsenios
 
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