What is salvation?

[Fozzy]

As a teenager, Fischer lost interest in the “narcissistic” and shallow idea that Christianity existed just to provide him security and make him feel good, he said. So, his youth minister at Denman Avenue Baptist Church in Lufkin suggested he read Piper’s book, Desiring God.

“It decentered me. It helped me realize it’s not all about me,” Fischer said in an interview. Instead, he learned from Piper, “It’s all about God’s glory.”

'A place for postmodern refugees'

For him and many of his peers, Calvinism became “a place for postmodern refugees,” he explained. In a culture of skepticism when many see truth as relative, Calvinism offers stability, he said.

“It is something to hold it all together and give clarity,” he said. “Calvinism has a place for everything. It’s like a big, beautiful house with clear lines and strong accents of black and white. It offers a compelling remedy to postmodern skepticism.”

The writings of Piper and Jonathan Edwards, the 18th century Puritan theologian, gave him “a lens to see the Scripture through,” he said. And when read through that lens, he concluded, the Bible left him no option but to accept belief in unconditional election and the other teachings of Reformed theology.

 

[Fozzy]

Eventually, however, he became unable to accept the idea God could create a relatively small number of people to elect for salvation and create much of humanity for no other purpose than damnation—a position called “double predestination” not all Calvinists hold, but one he believes consistent Calvinism demands. Fischer could not reconcile that with descriptions of God as loving, just and good.

“Calvinism forced me to call things ‘good,’ when they could only be considered the most morally repugnant atrocities imaginable, perpetrated by the Creator himself,” he wrote.

Goodness, love and justice

Furthermore, he realized if God speaks truthfully about himself and his purposes in the Bible, that demands belief in a trustworthy God. But God, as he understood him to be taught in Calvinism, defies human understandings of what goodness, love and justice means.

“If Calvinism is right and we are so unbelievably wrong about God’s love, justice and goodness due to our humanity, why should we think we are right about God’s integrity and truthfulness in revealing himself in the Bible?” Fisher asked.

“The relentless emphasis on mystery and transcendence had completely untethered God from the realm of ‘knowability.’ I could not relate to a God whose white was my black.”

Fischer found his way out of Calvinism when he grasped a simple but profound principle: “God looks like Jesus.” He asked if the God of his Calvinist understanding matched the God revealed in Jesus—particularly as seen in his sacrificial death on the cross.

“I found the crucified God very difficult to square with the God of Calvinism,” he said.

Jesus revealed a completely free and sovereign God who graciously chose to limit himself and give himself away in love on a cross, he concluded.

 

[Fozzy]

“Having let God speak for himself, I had found—or been found by—an infinitely glorious God, but it was not the God of Calvinism. It was the sovereign, self-giving, suffering, crucified God of Jesus Christ. It was the God who does not need us but does not want to be without us—not because we deserve it, but because that’s just who he is,” he wrote.

“And for me, this was a glory far beyond the self-glorifying God of Calvinism.”

At age 15, Fischer believed Calvinism gave him answers. Today, he knows he doesn’t have all the answers. Because of that, he can minister humbly alongside others at his church who interpret some of the Bible differently than he does—including those who identify themselves as Calvinists.

Fischer emphasized he did not write the book about his journey of discovery to bash Calvinists. Rather, he wants young evangelicals attracted by the mystery of God’s glory as emphasized in Calvinist theology to consider what he sees as a more compelling mystery.

“The Creator would rather die than give us what we deserve—that’s the supreme mystery at the heart of the universe, and it’s the kind of mystery I can live into,” he said. “There is nothing bigger and more challenging than self-giving love.”

 

[Fozzy]

Calvinism is man made post modern elitist rubbish.

 

[DingDing]

Calvinism is man made post modern elitist rubbish.

It kind of sounds like this Fischer guy came to the right conclusions concerning calvinism (at least from what my skimmings of your posts would indicate). Good for him.

 

[Fozzy]

It kind of sounds like this Fischer guy came to the right conclusions concerning calvinism (at least from what my skimmings of your posts would indicate). Good for him.

Indeed. Seems James White has come to the same position - www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL7CrSW_bSI

 

[DingDing]

Indeed. Seems James White has come to the same position - www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL7CrSW_bSI

I will watch this, but from from everything I have seen, James White is an ungodly and self-centered man. But perhaps there is a grace that even he can accept. Praise be to God if he has come to his senses.

 

[Arsenios]

Calvinism is man made post modern elitist rubbish.

There are some God fearing people who are Calvinists...

And it is not post-modern at all...

Hard-hearted judgmentalism that condemns Calvinists is no more than that...

One of the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that whenever one condemns another for some sin, God releases the demon causing that sin upon the one doing the condemning...

A great Mercy, that!

Arsenios

 

[Fozzy]

There are some God fearing people who are Calvinists...

I am sure you are correct. However, as White notes in his video, there are a lot who "cannibalise" (his words) those who do not agree with them.

And it is not post-modern at all...

Again you are correct. I wonder though, how Calvinism today reflects its historical beginnings way back in 1618 or thereabouts.

Hard-hearted judgmentalism that condemns Calvinists is no more than that...

And of those who are badly damaged and wounded by Calvinism, beaten down for upholding the things they were taught from Sunday School onwards ? Speaking out against those who come with a new doctrine - Jesaus cam th eve that which was lost.... but no, not any more, that is for the kids, Jesus came to save only the elect as God pre dammed all the others.

One of the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that whenever one condemns another for some sin, God releases the demon causing that sin upon the one doing the condemning...

A great Mercy, that!

Arsenios

I see your point ( to a point) but, God releasing demons ? NO. Also, defending ones faith is not condemning. Defending Jesus to an ISIS terrorist for instance! - an extreme example.
The Dark Side of Calvinism is that it does a huge amount of hurt and at the end of the day, has no better answer than the non calvinist.[/QUOTE]

( Just for info - my church was trashed by a young untrained Calvinist Pastor. Vilified and bullied members who did not agree with him, Banned others who 'did not attend regularly' even when they were hospitalised and convalessing Real bad experience.

 

[Fozzy]

Hard-hearted judgmentalism that condemns Calvinists is no more than that...

Ephesians 4:14-15New International Version (NIV)
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.


1 Timothy 6:20-21 ESV /
O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith.

Colossians 2:8 ESV /
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

And of those who are badly damaged and wounded by Calvinism, beaten down for upholding the things they were taught from Sunday School onwards ? Speaking out against those who come with a new doctrine - Jesaus cam th eve that which was lost.... but no, not any more, that is for the kids, Jesus came to save only the elect as God pre dammed all the others.

The battles we engage are not against flesh and blood but dark powers and principalities in high places...

Your enemy is not the man, but the demon that has him ensnared and enslaved...

I see your point ( to a point) but, God releasing demons ? NO.

He holds them in abeyance in His Great Mercy, but when you deny mercy to the merciless, you will lose the Mercy you once had...

Judge yourself, that you be not judged...

1Cor 11:31
For if we were judging ourselves,
we would not be being judged.

Also, defending ones faith is not condemning.

That depends on how you are doing it...

Defending Jesus to an ISIS terrorist for instance! - an extreme example.

You will best defend your Faith to such a man by loving him genuinely from your heart as he is cutting off your head with a reasonably sharp knife - You will not be permitted to speak...

The Dark Side of Calvinism is that it does a huge amount of hurt and at the end of the day, has no better answer than the non calvinist.

Indeed, and the most hurt it does is to those who do such hurt to others...

( Just for info - my church was trashed by a young untrained Calvinist Pastor. Vilified and bullied members who did not agree with him, Banned others who 'did not attend regularly' even when they were hospitalised and convalessing Real bad experience.

He needs your prayers and your love - His victims need the Truth of the Love of Christ...

Our fallen human condition is messed up, my brother...

You, me, and the Calvinist abuser...

Attacking the Calvinist only adds to the problem...

I am sorry he was so abusive - Many are control freaks... It is a messed up doctrine... And messes up many who come under its aegis...

The whole of the Protestant Reformation is in a self-destruction mode now, holding few of its adherents... That is simply the way it is now... They had their day, and it is over and coming apart...

That is the real post-modernism...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Ephesians 4:14-15New International Version (NIV)
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.


1 Timothy 6:20-21 ESV /
O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith.

Colossians 2:8 ESV /
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

These are but a few of the reasons I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian - Out of the Church of Antioch where the followers of Christ were first called Christians - The Ancient Faith of Christ... Paul founded that Church, and it exists to this day... We have been discipling the Faith of Christ for 2000 years now and counting, consistently bringing Salvation to the Faithful - And more correctly, bringing the faithful to Salvation...

One Body with One Head in One Church that is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth...

Arsenios

 

[Fozzy]

The battles we engage are not against flesh and blood but dark powers and principalities in high places...

Your enemy is not the man, but the demon that has him ensnared and enslaved...ddddddddddddddd



He holds them in abeyance in His Great Mercy, but when you deny mercy to the merciless, you will lose the Mercy you once had...

Judge yourself, that you be not judged...

1Cor 11:31
For if we were judging ourselves,
we would not be being judged.



That depends on how you are doing it...



You will best defend your Faith to such a man by loving him genuinely from your heart as he is cutting off your head with a reasonably sharp knife - You will not be permitted to speak...



Indeed, and the most hurt it does is to those who do such hurt to others...



He needs your prayers and your love - His victims need the Truth of the Love of Christ...

Our fallen human condition is messed up, my brother...

You, me, and the Calvinist abuser...

Attacking the Calvinist only adds to the problem...

I am sorry he was so abusive - Many are control freaks... It is a messed up doctrine... And messes up many who come under its aegis...

The whole of the Protestant Reformation is in a self-destruction mode now, holding few of its adherents... That is simply the way it is now... They had their day, and it is over and coming apart...

That is the real post-modernism...

Arsenios

Thanks Arsenois

I was going to take issue with you but after reading your post several times thought better not to.

A couple of questions if I may.

"Your enemy is not man". I kind of think it is man, not sure to what extent. I am thinking of man's responsibility. Jesus said "If anyone lead my sheep astray..." and went on to say stuff that is not politically correct these days. Regarding the calvinist - and yes, I believe you have stated what I hoped to express much better than I could - "That is the real post-modernism" - Many know full well what they are doing, is it them doing it rather than a demon in them. Many would say all things are predestined by God, inferring what they do is Godly.

The most gob smacking event for me was when a Christian was so badly bullied he walked away. There were remonstrations by other members of the meeting. The Calvinist leader stated something to the effect

"It is best he gives up and goes and has a good time enjoying his life rather then believing he was saved and throughout out his life only to find out when he dies he was not one of the elect."

My disgust for calvinism increased 100 fold. So, was it demons infesting this calvinist or was it his own responsibility?


You say "The whole of the Protestant Reformation is in a self-destruction mode now, holding few of its adherents... That is simply the way it is now... They had their day, and it is over and coming apart..."

Interesting. I am probably wrong (hope so) but I think the closet Calvy is rip roaring fine and dandy. The message from the pulpit during a recent funeral ( the only reason I went back) was "repent and believe, it is your choice "!!!
Really ? not what one was bashed over the head with when one was a member, rather "knuckle down to my authority..." ( I am getting wound up now just remembering it all).

How do you conclude your comment above ?

 

[Fozzy]

These are but a few of the reasons I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian - Out of the Church of Antioch where the followers of Christ were first called Christians - The Ancient Faith of Christ... Paul founded that Church, and it exists to this day... We have been discipling the Faith of Christ for 2000 years now and counting, consistently bringing Salvation to the Faithful - And more correctly, bringing the faithful to Salvation...

One Body with One Head in One Church that is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth...

Arsenios

Many thanks Arsenois.

 

[Arsenios]

Thanks Arsenois

My name is Greek, not French - The smell is just as bad, but has different origins!

I was going to take issue with you but after reading your post several times thought better not to.

Thank-you for caring enough to look closely...

A couple of questions if I may.

With one caveat - I do occasionally, be it ever so seldom, actually sometimes inadvertently tell the truth...

So with that warning, let's see what happens!

"Your enemy is not man"

. I kind of think it is man, not sure to what extent.

Calvinists think the same - Ascribing total depravity to all men, and giving Christ's death on the cross as the asbestos suit to protect the elect from God's flame-thrower of righteousness at the Judgement... But more to your point, we understand the human soul to be the arena of contest between Good and evil, and holy lives to be those lived in the God-quest for Truth and integrity... The result is a joyful Life in Christ that welcomes sufferings and in that life takes away suffering from others as occasion permits...

I am thinking of man's responsibility.

Each of us is responsible for our conduct...

Jesus said "If anyone lead my sheep astray..." and went on to say stuff that is not politically correct these days.

To paraphrase Obama, political correctness is beneath my pay-grade...

But more directly, life on this earth is not about life on this earth, but is about the Kingdom of Heaven... It is about Love and Joy and Kindness that flows downward from the God we KNOW... And blesses all creation... It is expressed in the words: "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace, good will toward men..."

Regarding the calvinist - and yes, I believe you have stated what I hoped to express much better than I could - "That is the real post-modernism" - Many know full well what they are doing, is it them doing it rather than a demon in them. Many would say all things are predestined by God, inferring what they do is Godly.

Self-justification is a common and really, fwiw, a banal and garden-variety demon common to most men... When such gain power over others, it can get ugly... But their day came and is now going - Indeed it is gone - And we need guide-lines in its absence...

The most gob smacking event for me was when a Christian was so badly bullied he walked away. There were remonstrations by other members of the meeting. The Calvinist leader stated something to the effect

"It is best he gives up and goes and has a good time enjoying his life rather then believing he was saved and throughout out his life only to find out when he dies he was not one of the elect."

My disgust for calvinism increased 100 fold.

Simple reality 101 - The sane thing to do is walk away, and God's mercy gave the one departing full vindication...

So, was it demons infesting this calvinist or was it his own responsibility?

Yes...

You say "The whole of the Protestant Reformation is in a self-destruction mode now, holding few of its adherents... That is simply the way it is now... They had their day, and it is over and coming apart..."

Interesting. I am probably wrong (hope so) but I think the closet Calvy is rip roaring fine and dandy. The message from the pulpit during a recent funeral ( the only reason I went back) was "repent and believe, it is your choice "!!!
Really ? not what one was bashed over the head with when one was a member, rather "knuckle down to my authority..." ( I am getting wound up now just remembering it all).

How do you conclude your comment above ?

The adherents are getting more shrill as they lose control...

There are great forces afoot...

Hanging on to outrage and anger toward them is counter-productive...

People become what they do - Do anger and you will become anger...

You sure that is what you want for your soul?

Jes' sayin!

Love ya bro'! (or Sis' ??)

Arsenios, the smelly Greek named imitator of real Christians!

 

[Fozzy]

.......

People become what they do - Do anger and you will become anger...

You sure that is what you want for your soul?

Nope. Quite sure the opposite.

Ευχαριστώ Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Nope. Quite sure the opposite.

Ευχαριστώ Arsenios

Now you know the real reason not to judge others...

And especially those dirty-rotten-no-good judgmentalists!!

There is simply no way for it to come out good...

Thank-you for your gracious reply...

Blessings to you too...

Arsenios

 

[Fozzy]

.....
The adherents (Calvinists) are getting more shrill as they lose control...

Can you give some examples.
A famous Calvinist load speaker is James White. He seems to have changed direction recently

There are great forces afoot...

Please elaborate.


Kind regards

Foz

 

[Arsenios]

Can you give some examples.
A famous Calvinist load speaker is James White. He seems to have changed direction recently

I simply look at the culture and see Calvinist Churches emptying, and the Calvinist culture is often heavily tied to control issues, and your own example is one of what can happen as they lose control with one person... They end up saying very evil things... It is just how the world works, or more precisely, how it dys-functions...

Please elaborate.

The great forces that are stripping western Christianity from its Churches, and leaving behind a secular and carnal culture, and into this gap, if we can garner the workers, the Orthodox Church is coming to flower in the west, where the Roman Catholic Church lost its mission in Her error...

Those are large forces in my book - The Holy Spirit is afoot as the culture itself burrows itself into a consumer driven secularity that exalts fantasy and virtual reality and video-tech self-absorption...

Finding approaches that penetrate this pervasive veneer is a part of the Orthodox Mission in the US and the West...

Kind regards

Back at ya!

Arsenios

 

[Fozzy]

I simply look at the culture and see Calvinist Churches emptying, and the Calvinist culture is often heavily tied to control issues, and your own example is one of what can happen as they lose control with one person... They end up saying very evil things... It is just how the world works, or more precisely, how it dys-functions...

Thanks Arsenios.

Looking at your profile it seems you are in Russia. I am intrigued how you see what is going on in the West. At least in my location, I think you are right. Calvinist churches I know of are dying out, either through those who won't conform being fired ( not literally like Servetus) or the oldies not being replaced fast enough.

Being non conformist I think this is good, but...

The great forces that are stripping western Christianity from its Churches, and leaving behind a secular and carnal culture,

Including very liberal Churches.

and into this gap, if we can garner the workers, the Orthodox Church is coming to flower in the west, .

I wish you well on that and look forward to new blooms. We sure need it.

Those are large forces in my book - The Holy Spirit is afoot as the culture itself burrows itself into a consumer driven secularity that exalts fantasy and virtual reality and video-tech self-absorption...

Finding approaches that penetrate this pervasive veneer is a part of the Orthodox Mission in the US and the West...

Indeedy. Internet, Smart phones, 4G.... When I was a lad at college calculators were only just invented. All but one of us used slide rules. The guy who had a calculator was, or became, hopeless at sums, addicted to not thinking e.g how many zeros in 1000. At the exam calculators were not allowed - he failed. This addiction has increased many fold. So many people unable to get by for 10 minutes without phoning someone or looking at an 'app'.

God bless you.