What is salvation?

Arsenios

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how can you lost something you never even had in the first place. toink.

We are speaking of those who:

Were once enlightened,
And have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
And were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good Word of God,
And the powers of the Age to Come...

What do you TOINK is missing here???
Straight from Heb 6:4-5

Arsenios
 
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Geralt

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there is nothing to disagree with the verses. however Heb 6:4-5 is not the whole of scripture and therefore arminian conclusions (like yourself) needs to be tempered. obviously there were a lots of defectors and heretics that time, like what we have also today.

1Jn 2:19 balances the perspective. they left it, simply for the reason they never genuinely had it.

they have other desires they'd rather follow than the truth they experienced. seeds on rocks, seeds on thorns.

We are speaking of those who:

Were once enlightened,
And have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
And were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good Word of God,
And the powers of the Age to Come...

What do you TOINK is missing here???
Straight from Heb 6:4-5

Arsenios
 
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EmSw

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You have addressed me as Arsenios... Thank-you... It is my Baptismal name...

By what name can I return your kindness?

My name is Wayne; you may use that name.

The Bible records that everything that is not of God is sin - Every word, every thought, every feeling, and every action and deed... So that when someone who is acting in this syndrome, or any other ego-centered complex of personality, is by that fact alone mentally disturbed, disordered, and dysfunctional...

Then are living in a world full of mentally disturbed people. :help:

You and I are not Jesus or Paul...

Are we not to follow and imitate Jesus? Just askin'.

What I am asking of you is to not do so at the expense of the person with whom you are speaking...
Proffering forth Truth for all the OTHERS is merely to be cheap grandstanding which denigrates the holy words you cite...

Every writer in the word is proffering truth for others to accept. You have proffered a proposal for me to accept.

And in this conviction you parade your "victory", because you made your brother to stumble???

I think you are bringing your 'convictions' of me way too far. I would never want victory over a fellow believer. Why do you think he has stumbled?

You need to learn to have kinship with their humility and love, to obey Christ when He said these holy words:

Mat 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Or the holy words of David the Prophet:

A heart that is broken and humbled...
God will not despise...

There is no one more important in a conversation than the person with whom one is having that conversation...

Arsenios

Your words are appreciated.
 
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EmSw

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there is nothing to disagree with the verses. however Heb 6:4-5 is not the whole of scripture and therefore arminian conclusions (like yourself) needs to be tempered. obviously there were a lots of defectors and heretics that time, like what we have also today.

1Jn 2:19 balances the perspective. they left it, simply for the reason they never genuinely had it.

they have other desires they'd rather follow than the truth they experienced. seeds on rocks, seeds on thorns.

1 John 2:19 is speaking of anti-christs, who do not have an anointing of the Spirit, and have denied Jesus is the Christ.

This certainly does not speak of those in Hebrews -

Were once enlightened,
And have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
And were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good Word of God,
And the powers of the Age to Come...
 
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Arsenios

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You wouldn't happen to be talking about my wife now, would you?

Blind luck does have a place in Christian Life! :)

TTTT*, I used to do PA as a regular feature of my coping skills...

So I speak from memory...

Arsenios

*ToTellTheTruth
 
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Arsenios

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My name is Wayne; you may use that name.

Servant of God Wayne! Thank-you!

Then are living in a world full of mentally disturbed people. :help:

Of course, and ourselves most of all...

Are we not to follow and imitate Jesus? Just askin'.

Yes, of course, but we cannot start with imitating Him rebuking the Pharisees...

Every writer in the word is proffering truth for others to accept. You have proffered a proposal for me to accept.

Thank-you for hearing me so carefully...

I think you are bringing your 'convictions' of me way too far. I would never want victory over a fellow believer. Why do you think he has stumbled?

The stumble would be his anger and his departure from your presence... I don't know if he actually did that or not, but I was observing you carefully getting under his skin with little psychological digs...

Your words are appreciated.

Well back at ya, Brother!

Now I can pray for you by name!

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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there is nothing to disagree with the verses. however Heb 6:4-5 is not the whole of scripture and therefore arminian conclusions (like yourself) needs to be tempered. obviously there were a lots of defectors and heretics that time, like what we have also today.

1Jn 2:19 balances the perspective. they left it, simply for the reason they never genuinely had it.

they have other desires they'd rather follow than the truth they experienced. seeds on rocks, seeds on thorns.

The two do not "balance" each other - Each is true in its own context. Paul in Hebrews is speaking of those who are fully saved falling away, and what their end will be if they do not turn things around... At that point, they are only fit for burning... The meaning of that, while harsh, is cleansing, for it means, I should think, not death and loss of Christ necessarily, but the fire of crises and trials and calamities designed to return the miscreant to Christ...

otoh, it probably does mean death and destruction...

We do not get to throw God away after we have known the powers of the Age to Come...

Turn away after THAT, and I deserve to burn...

Remember the Israelites in the Babylonian captivity, when their captors asked them to sing for them? How they were heart-broken, far from home, in an alien land? And how they sang: "IF ever I should forget Thee O Jerusalem, let (all manner of ills befall me...)"... When one has KNOWN Christ, one simply CANNOT return to a worldly life... There really is no turning back once begun in Him...

Arsenios
 
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Geralt

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- first of all not everyone is in agreement Paul wrote Hebrews, so this is an assumption

- it does not really define they "have been fully saved", this is a presumption from you. i mean even your own sect's soteriology do not agree that people are really "saved" (a definite, concluded event, past tense) until judgement day when the verdict falls down based on their own works+faith. so i do not understand why you turn tables now and became calvinistic in making a statement about this verse.

- thirdly is the reality of deception and heresy, i mean there are people really believing they know the gospel or are saved but eventually turn tails. since 2000 yrs past heresies have abounded which we still have until today. point is they have tested or even believed christ died for them, yet it is really questionable if they understood the gospel at all.

- as i have written already, seeds on rocks - seeds on thorns. Falling away is not an event issue but reality of which even Jesus gave a parable about it. seeds bloom for a moment into a plant but withered and die, either because of poor soil or choked by wordly desires, or taken by birds. BUT the plant founded on good soil grows to full bloom.

wrong belief, deception, even a wrong version of christ eventually leads to a falling away. they started yet they withered and died. but i will not agree that they are "saved" like you presume,

but here is the key : The farmer's intent was never on those seeds that fall on the sides but on the seeds he plants on good soil. and they will always bloom. Another way of saying is Jesus did not really save those who are not his, but only those whom He intentional calls his own, and they will never fall away. They are a new creation, God's workmanship, and sealed with the holy spirit.


The two do not "balance" each other - Each is true in its own context. Paul in Hebrews is speaking of those who are fully saved falling away, and what their end will be if they do not turn things around... At that point, they are only fit for burning... The meaning of that, while harsh, is cleansing, for it means, I should think, not death and loss of Christ necessarily, but the fire of crises and trials and calamities designed to return the miscreant to Christ...

otoh, it probably does mean death and destruction...

We do not get to throw God away after we have known the powers of the Age to Come...

Turn away after THAT, and I deserve to burn...

Remember the Israelites in the Babylonian captivity, when their captors asked them to sing for them? How they were heart-broken, far from home, in an alien land? And how they sang: "IF ever I should forget Thee O Jerusalem, let (all manner of ills befall me...)"... When one has KNOWN Christ, one simply CANNOT return to a worldly life... There really is no turning back once begun in Him...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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- first of all not everyone is in agreement Paul wrote Hebrews, so this is an assumption


That is how it is understood in the whole of the Apostolic Church and in the Eastern Orthodox Communion that gave you the Bible... I am good with that, and if you are not, then I am still good with you...

- it does not really define they "have been fully saved", this is a presumption from you. i mean even your own sect's soteriology do not agree that people are really "saved" (a definite, concluded event, past tense) until judgement day when the verdict falls down based on their own works+faith. so i do not understand why you turn tables now and became calvinistic in making a statement about this verse.

I sure didn't mean to turn Calvinist on you - What did I do to do so??

The words do say what they say, and the tasting of the Eord of God, and the Power of the Age to Come, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit both seem pretty conclusive evidence of being fully saved, from which Paul says one can depart and fall away...

- thirdly is the reality of deception and heresy, i mean there are people really believing they know the gospel or are saved but eventually turn tails. since 2000 yrs past heresies have abounded which we still have until today. point is they have tested or even believed christ died for them, yet it is really questionable if they understood the gospel at all.


From the Orthodox point of view, this is all made inevitable by the false doctrine of sola Scriptura...

- as i have written already, seeds on rocks - seeds on thorns. Falling away is not an event issue but reality of which even Jesus gave a parable about it. seeds bloom for a moment into a plant but withered and die, either because of poor soil or choked by wordly desires, or taken by birds. BUT the plant founded on good soil grows to full bloom.

So where do we disagree?

wrong belief, deception, even a wrong version of christ eventually leads to a falling away. they started yet they withered and died. but i will not agree that they are "saved" like you presume,

but here is the key : The farmer's intent was never on those seeds that fall on the sides but on the seeds he plants on good soil. and they will always bloom. Another way of saying is Jesus did not really save those who are not his, but only those whom He intentional calls his own, and they will never fall away. They are a new creation, God's workmanship, and sealed with the holy spirit.

I really hesitate to second-guess God's intent...
And I really question the my ability to discern good soil...
i know that you are aware of another Biblical place in which it tells us that God desires ALL to come to the Truth...
So we say that He knows some will come up short, but not that he wants them to fail...

Arsenios
 
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EmSw

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but here is the key : The farmer's intent was never on those seeds that fall on the sides but on the seeds he plants on good soil. and they will always bloom. Another way of saying is Jesus did not really save those who are not his, but only those whom He intentional calls his own, and they will never fall away. They are a new creation, God's workmanship, and sealed with the holy spirit.

What farmer who plants seeds, doesn't expect a return on his work? It is foolish speculation to believe a farmer sows and doesn't expect a harvest.
 
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Geralt

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yes i agree, i was pointing out to our orthodox friend turned calvinist for a moment that the farmer has no intention of harvesting seeds that fall NOT on good soils simply because it was not his intent.

arguing Hebrews 6:4-5 about the 'falling away' and writing in post #208 describing them as "fully saved falling away" discredits his position simply because in orthodox (like the RCC) does not believe anyone is "full saved" until judgment day when everyone is qualified saved or not by his so-called "faith+works". and yet he turns to a reformed position at this moment to argue his case haha

What farmer who plants seeds, doesn't expect a return on his work? It is foolish speculation to believe a farmer sows and doesn't expect a harvest.
 
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Arsenios

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yes i agree, i was pointing out to our orthodox friend turned calvinist for a moment that the farmer has no intention of harvesting seeds that fall NOT on good soils simply because it was not his intent.

arguing Hebrews 6:4-5 about the 'falling away' and writing in post #208 describing them as "fully saved falling away" discredits his position simply because in orthodox (like the RCC) does not believe anyone is "full saved" until judgment day when everyone is qualified saved or not by his so-called "faith+works". and yet he turns to a reformed position at this moment to argue his case haha

Here's the text...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Your argument is that those who have been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly Gift, have been made paartakers of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good Word of God, have tasted the Powers of the Age to Come, that these have NOT been fully saved, yes?

So what, Biblically, are they LACKING in the Salvation they do have???

Arsenios
 
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Job8

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What do you TOINK is missing here???
...to renew them again unto repentance.

But before that there is a BIG IF, and after that there is a BIG ASSURANCE that this is a hypothetical.
If they shall fall away,

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul is actually assuring believers that if they are genuinely saved, they will NOT fall away.
 
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Geralt

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its not what they lack, you are always looking at it at a different perspective.

they are not saved simply because they fell away. their falling away vindicated/proved that they were never saved.

much like the reasoning in James 2 which you would agree. their faith was never proven genuine because their fruits (or lack of it) prove it to be so.

im amazed, you should be the one agreeing with this position considering you belong to a works+faith based sect. now you turn tails assuming everyone is "totally saved" (even though its not yet judgment day), and that they fall away just for the sake of presenting an opinion.


it was never about "salvation" -> you simply inserted this text and presumed the verse tells this people are "saved". as i have written previously, the parable of the seed and the sower christ defines this reality and thus it's not an issue worth arguing UNLESS you insert the word "salvation" which in this case you become out of context.

Here's the text...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Your argument is that those who have been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly Gift, have been made paartakers of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good Word of God, have tasted the Powers of the Age to Come, that these have NOT been fully saved, yes?

So what, Biblically, are they LACKING in the Salvation they do have???

Arsenios
 
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DingDing

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its not what they lack, you are always looking at it at a different perspective.

they are not saved simply because they fell away. their falling away vindicated/proved that they were never saved.

...

Hello,
I just happened to come across this post. So, let me ask, was the servant in the parable in Matthew 18 not forgiven? That would seem to be the position you are taking, Geralt. Those who "fall away" were never saved (nor forgiven) to begin with. So is Jesus really in the business of saying that certain person's sins are forgiven, when in fact they are not? Wouldn't that make God a liar? I'm just trying to figure out if you have thought through your position - as for me, your position doesn't add up.
 
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DingDing

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Geralt: first of all not everyone is in agreement Paul wrote Hebrews, so this is an assumption

That is how it is understood in the whole of the Apostolic Church and in the Eastern Orthodox Communion that gave you the Bible... I am good with that, and if you are not, then I am still good with you...
...
Arsenios

Actually, I am of the opinion that it was not Paul who wrote Hebrews. I believe there is internal evidence that it was not Paul. I believe (and must admit I want to believe) that Barnabas wrote the Book of Hebrews. I believe internal evidence points away from Paul, but to someone closely associate with Paul. And I believe that person to be the "Son of Encouragement". And for those with understanding, I believe the Book of Hebrews is a book of encouragement.
 
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Geralt

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i doubt you can compare the 'master' to God like a santa clause making a list checking twice if you have been naughty. God knows the hearts of everyman and is not fooled by pretense to begin with. He does not save/forgive then later on proved to have made a mistake for the person 'fell' away.

as i have been telling over and over again, WHEN GOD SAVES PEOPLE HE ALSO CHANGES THEM. that is the missing factor why people wont believe that there is no such thing as "saved" and then "fall away" later. its not the argument about OSAS or the contrary, but rather a distorted view of God who saves people and then act like santa clause on the side checking them out and making a list.

that my friend is a puny version of god, pagan, indifferent. the God of Scripture engages man personally and directly, FORMS them as potter is to clay- basically they are his workmanship. The christian apart from being saved, is a NEW CREATION, a new person with a new heart and desire to serve God, sealed with the holy spirit.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Given this foundation, the only alternative to understand the argued Hebrews verse is simply : if they fall away, they never were; 1 John 2:19

Hello,
I just happened to come across this post. So, let me ask, was the servant in the parable in Matthew 18 not forgiven? That would seem to be the position you are taking, Geralt. Those who "fall away" were never saved (nor forgiven) to begin with. So is Jesus really in the business of saying that certain person's sins are forgiven, when in fact they are not? Wouldn't that make God a liar? I'm just trying to figure out if you have thought through your position - as for me, your position doesn't add up.
 
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Arsenios

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its not what they lack, you are always looking at it at a different perspective.

Thank-you - That is kinda the idea here...

they are not saved simply because they fell away. their falling away vindicated/proved that they were never saved.

Solipsistic drivel - I mean, if you define salvation as that from which you cannot fall away, then you are assuming what you cannot prove...
And calling it proof...

much like the reasoning in James 2 which you would agree. their faith was never proven genuine because their fruits (or lack of it) prove it to be so.
Faith is perfected by works. That is what James tells us...

im amazed, you should be the one agreeing with this position considering you belong to a works+faith based sect. now you turn tails assuming everyone is "totally saved" (even though its not yet judgment day), and that they fall away just for the sake of presenting an opinion.

We have radically differing understandings of just what it is that Salvation IS...


it was never about "salvation" -> you simply inserted this text and presumed the verse tells this people are "saved". as i have written previously, the parable of the seed and the sower christ defines this reality and thus it's not an issue worth arguing UNLESS you insert the word "salvation" which in this case you become out of context.

This text IS about Salvation, and the fact that one can possess it, and then lose it...

I gave you the list of attributes which indicate Salvation which are listed in the pericope, and I asked you to show which attribute was missing, and your reply is that they did not have Salvation from which they would be unable to fall away...

Thereby you are presuming that which is at issue...

Salvation can be lost...

From ANY attainment...

The Pope can fall...

Arsenios
 
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Geralt

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- NO this text is about people who have fallen away, NOT salvation. you PRESUME the list describes people who are "fully saved", yet the writer has not really said they were saved. so this is your extracted presumption.
- read #218
- "salvation can be lost" ?, your sect dont even teach you totally have it already so why bother.
- "pope can fall" ? he did fall yesterday in poland during his mass.

This text IS about Salvation, and the fact that one can possess it, and then lose it...
I gave you the list of attributes which indicate Salvation which are listed in the pericope, and I asked you to show which attribute was missing, and your reply is that they did not have Salvation from which they would be unable to fall away...
Thereby you are presuming that which is at issue...
Salvation can be lost...
From ANY attainment...
The Pope can fall...
Arsenios
 
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