What is salvation?

[Marvin Knox]

Now that's opinion. I think your re-reading of those verses should be sufficient. But here are some more anyway:

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

“A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture.

11“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Luke 8:7-6 & 11-13

These examples are altogether fitting for you to use to bolster your teaching that saved people can lose their salvation.

The reason is that they, like the ones you used before, do not say what you say that they say.

I happen to believe what Jesus said about not losing any that the Father gives to Him. I happen to believe that those who believe will not come again into condemnation (as Jesus promised).

You, on the other hand, do not believe that. You are not alone in that.

You and I can disagree on the doctrine which says that He is the author and the finisher of the faith of true believers.

That's fine. I can live with that. I'm sure that you can as well.

But you have to use verses which fit the context to bolster your teaching if you are going to continue teaching loss of salvation.

You can't use verses which do not say what you are trying to say.

I take that back. You can use verses out of context. It just won't be acceptable exegesis of scripture.

 

[EmSw]

These examples are altogether fitting for you to use to bolster your teaching that saved people can lose their salvation.

The reason is that they, like the ones you used before, do not say what you say that they say.

I happen to believe what Jesus said about not losing any that the Father gives to Him. I happen to believe that those who believe will not come again into condemnation (as Jesus promised).

You, on the other hand, do not believe that. You are not alone in that.

You and I can disagree on the doctrine which says that He is the author and the finisher of the faith of true believers.

That's fine. I can live with that. I'm sure that you can as well.

But you have to use verses which fit the context to bolster your teaching if you are going to continue teaching loss of salvation.

You can't use verses which do not say what you are trying to say.

I take that back. You can use verses out of context. It just won't be acceptable exegesis of scripture.

Yet you believe God predestined some to heaven, and foreordained some to hell. The sad thing is that you don't have even one verse which says that. Do you believe this to bolster your teachings, Marvin?

 

[Marvin Knox]

HOWEVER, you said trust in the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross. Is it finished or not? Are you just playing word games with us?

Why is Christ working now, if He finished it on the cross?

Do you really not understand that Christ's finished work at Calvary secured for Him the position of intercessor,advocate, and baptizer in the Holy Spirit for all who the Father gives to Him?

Obviously (even if you say you do) you obviously do not believe that He is any good at it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yet you believe God predestined some to heaven, and foreordained some to hell. The sad thing is that you don't have even one verse which says that. Do you believe this to bolster your teachings, Marvin?

The predestination by God of all that takes place in His creation is the simplest and most straight forward concept imaginable considering what the Bible teaches about the nature of God, His creation, and His providential control of that creation.

You have been provided material over and over again.

We have nothing new to cover here. Go and try to deal yourself into the conversation of someone else.

If you continue to interject yourself into the conversations of others - I will leave the thread and others will be the poorer for it IMO.

 

[EmSw]

Do you really not understand that Christ's finished work at Calvary secured for Him the position of intercessor,advocate, and baptizer in the Holy Spirit for all who the Father gives to Him?

Obviously (even if you say you do) you obviously do not believe that He is any good at it.

Do you have any scripture to back up what you are saying? Do you mean the finished work on the cross DID NOT secure for Him the position of Savior?

Either you mean His work is finished or you don't, Marvin. What is it, finished or not finished?

 

[EmSw]

The predestination by God of all that takes place in His creation is the simplest and most straight forward concept imaginable considering what the Bible teaches about the nature of God, His creation, and His providential control of that creation.

You have been provided material over and over again.

Go and try to deal yourself into the conversation of someone else.

We have nothing new to cover here.

Let's not get hasty Child of God. I asked you to provide passages which state what you believe about predestination, and you had rather take it out on me because you can't find any. You can't even take them out of context, because they don't exist.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Do you have any scripture to back up what you are saying? Do you mean the finished work on the cross DID NOT secure for Him the position of Savior?

Either you mean His work is finished or you don't, Marvin. What is it, finished or not finished?

Let's not get hasty Child of God. I asked you to provide passages which state what you believe about predestination, and you had rather take it out on me because you can't find any. You can't even take them out of context, because they don't exist.

There you go then.

You've made your choice.

You can continue the dialog I was engaged in with others if they want to continue with you.

 

[EmSw]

There you go then.

You've made your choice.

You can continue the dialog I was engaged in with others if they want to continue with you.

Are you leaving because you have no answer? Remember, others see that you have no answer.

 

[Arsenios]

The verses cited do not speak about the possibility of losing salvation.

In Revelation??? Of course they do...

Cite verses which teach loss of salvation if there are any.

Heb 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed,
receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,
and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

But don't take verses which don't and say that they do - the way you did.

He didn't.

Lucifer lost his salvation...
Adam lost his salvation...
Judas lost his salvation...
And so can you and I...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Let's not get hasty Child of God. I asked you to provide passages which state what you believe about predestination, and you had rather take it out on me because you can't find any. You can't even take them out of context, because they don't exist.

Well, you ARE a little hard to take...

Ever heard of a passive aggressive personality disorder?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Are you leaving because you have no answer? Remember, others see that you have no answer.

Are you trying to be helpful here?

Arsenios

 

[EmSw]

Well, you ARE a little hard to take...

Ever heard of a passive aggressive personality disorder?

Arsenios

Hello Arsenios. I never heard of that disorder. The prophets were hard to take also; that's why many of them lost their lives.

 

[EmSw]

Are you trying to be helpful here?

Arsenios

If a man can't handle the heat of the sun, I suggest he stay indoors.

 

[Arsenios]

Hello Arsenios.

Hello, EmSw... Do you have a better handle than EmSw??

I never heard of that disorder.

It is a disorder of the personality that lives behind snide remarks designed to get under the skin of the person with whom one is arguing, rather than openly have a discussion and speak from a loving heart as God calls us to do... It takes great pleasure in getting someone angry, and feels it has won the argument when a person, say, loses his or her temper and marches off from the discussion... It suffers therein a lot of smug...

The prophets were hard to take also; that's why many of them lost their lives.

I would not classify my own being hard to take as having any kinship with the holy Prophets...

Are you doing so in this observation of yours?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

If a man can't handle the heat of the sun, I suggest he stay indoors.

So you are not trying to be helpful, but instead are trying to drive a man away from YOUR heat??

Lord have mercy!

Psa 142:4
I looked on my right hand, and beheld,
but there was no man that would know me:
refuge failed me;
no man cared for my soul.

Do you not care for his soul?

Arsenios

 

[Geralt]

how can you lost something you never even had in the first place. toink.

In Revelation??? Of course they do...

He didn't.

Lucifer lost his salvation...
Adam lost his salvation...
Judas lost his salvation...
And so can you and I...

Arsenios

 

[EmSw]

Hello, EmSw... Do you have a better handle than EmSw??

No, this is the only one I have.

It is a disorder of the personality that lives behind snide remarks designed to get under the skin of the person with whom one is arguing, rather than openly have a discussion and speak from a loving heart as God calls us to do... It takes great pleasure in getting someone angry, and feels it has won the argument when a person, say, loses his or her temper and marches off from the discussion... It suffers therein a lot of smug...

I can understand your concern about this personality. I do not know if it is a disorder or not. I would take a disorder as someone who is mentally disturbed or dysfunctional.

If someone called another a viper or a dog, would that remark be considered snide? Jesus got under the skin of a lot of people, yet I think it was from a loving heart. Paul got under the skin of a lot of people.

I can even see saying a person with passive aggressive personality disorder a snide remark. But sometimes the truth has to take stronger measures for others to see.

I am certainly not angry and have not lost my temper, and do not plan to walk away from the discussion.

I would not classify my own being hard to take as having any kinship with the holy Prophets...

Are you doing so in this observation of yours?

Arsenios

If I speak the very words of the prophets, then in a sense, I have a kinship with the prophets.

 

[EmSw]

So you are not trying to be helpful, but instead are trying to drive a man away from YOUR heat??

Lord have mercy!

Psa 142:4
I looked on my right hand, and beheld,
but there was no man that would know me:
refuge failed me;
no man cared for my soul.

Do you not care for his soul?

Arsenios

It's not my heat; it's from the sun. Yes, the Lord has mercy.

Why would you think I care not for his soul? I haven't sent him to hell with my words. In fact, it is my total desire for him to enter the kingdom. But thank you for your concern.

 

[Arsenios]

It's not my heat; it's from the sun. Yes, the Lord has mercy.

Why would you think I care not for his soul? I haven't sent him to hell with my words. In fact, it is my total desire for him to enter the kingdom. But thank you for your concern.

My brother, you can ONLY lead a man to God from WITHIN THE MAN...

You cannot lead him from behind...

You cannot batter anyone into the Kingdom of Heaven with your Bible-words...

Nor can you do so with snide barbs and remarks and needling...

You MUST, in order to do so, GO FIRST...

And only THEN can you DRAW that man forth...

By his own understanding...

And through his own love...

By God's Holy Grace...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No, this is the only one I have.

You have addressed me as Arsenios... Thank-you... It is my Baptismal name...

By what name can I return your kindness?

I can understand your concern about this personality. I do not know if it is a disorder or not. I would take a disorder as someone who is mentally disturbed or dysfunctional.

The Bible records that everything that is not of God is sin - Every word, every thought, every feeling, and every action and deed... So that when someone who is acting in this syndrome, or any other ego-centered complex of personality, is by that fact alone mentally disturbed, disordered, and dysfunctional...

If someone called another a viper or a dog, would that remark be considered snide? Jesus got under the skin of a lot of people, yet I think it was from a loving heart. Paul got under the skin of a lot of people.

You and I are not Jesus or Paul...

I can even see saying a person with passive aggressive personality disorder a snide remark. But sometimes the truth has to take stronger measures for others to see.

What I am asking of you is to not do so at the expense of the person with whom you are speaking...
Proffering forth Truth for all the OTHERS is merely to be cheap grandstanding which denigrates the holy words you cite...

I am certainly not angry and have not lost my temper, and do not plan to walk away from the discussion.

And in this conviction you parade your "victory", because you made your brother to stumble???

If I speak the very words of the prophets, then in a sense, I have a kinship with the prophets.

You need to learn to have kinship with their humility and love, to obey Christ when He said these holy words:

Mat 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Or the holy words of David the Prophet:
A heart that is broken and humbled...
God will not despise...

There is no one more important in a conversation than the person with whom one is having that conversation...

Arsenios