What is Messianic Judaism

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Against SOME Pharisees as an insider, or against ALL Pharisees as an outsider?

I submit it was the former.

What evidence do you have that Yeshua was a Pharisee?

 

[Dave-W]

What evidence do you have that Yeshua was a Pharisee?

His teachings and the fact that He was asked / allowed to read and speak in synagogues. (ran by the Pharisees)

Have you ever read anything about the gospel teachings from a traditional Jewish source? they are unanimous (those who actually bother to look at HIS teachings) that He was a Pharisee - fitting somewhere between Hillel and Shammai. (closer to Hillel on most points)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

His teachings and the fact that He was asked / allowed to read and speak in synagogues. (ran by the Pharisees)

Have you ever read anything about the gospel teachings from a traditional Jewish source? they are unanimous (those who actually bother to look at HIS teachings) that He was a Pharisee - fitting somewhere between Hillel and Shammai. (closer to Hillel on most points)

I agree that Yeshua held many of the same beliefs as the Pharisees, but that does not mean He was one. Many Jews held the same beliefs and were Rabbis but were not Pharisees. Sadducees were the upper social and economic echelon of Judean society. The Pharisees gave oral tradition equal authority to the written Word of God, while the Sadducees considered only the written Word to be from God. Yeshua was not part of the ruling classes in Israel nor part of the Sanhedrin...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

His teachings and the fact that He was asked / allowed to read and speak in synagogues. (ran by the Pharisees)

John 7 Now about the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marveled, saying, How knows this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory: but he that seeks his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Matthew 7 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matthew 13 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, From where has this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? From where then has this man all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and in his own house. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mark 6 And he went out from there, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From where has this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given to him, that even such mighty works are worked by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus, said to them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands on a few sick, and healed them. And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Mark 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people were astonished at his doctrine.

Luke 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

John 7:15 And the Jews marveled, saying, How knows this man letters, having never learned?

 

[Sundown]

Proof that the above statement is incorrect.

http://www.jewishvoice.org/who-is-yeshua/

I know a lot of messianic that refused to say Jesus and say that Yeshua is his name, if you call him Jesus you are referring to another Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

"Jesus Christ" WAS a Pharisee.

If you do not agree, compare HIS doctrines with that of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

No way. He could be an Essene. He was highly critical of Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[Dave-W]

No way. He could be an Essene.

No way. No Essene would step foot into the Temple. They had no use for the synagogues either outside their own remote community. So this scripture says otherwise:

Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

 

[Truthfrees]

First, where do you see where I wrote we discard the Torah? If you read my post I am talking about our relationship is with Yeshua, not Torah. I know that the Torah proceeded up of the mouth of God, therefore, we cannot discard the Torah, we must be obedience to the law of God, keep them and observe them and the Spirit of God will guides us to walk rightly and blameslessly especially now that they are stored in our minds and engraved in our hearts, but we are not made God's righteousness through the law, we are made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart for the law. No man can know God through the law, the law brings a man to Yeshua so that man can know God through Yeshua.

I didn't say anything about you! Check it out! You weren't mentioned at all in my post!

Torah is not for righteousness, or salvation!

Torah is showing us how to live the way God wants us to live!

Which happens to be the same way Yeshua lived!

He told us to follow Him!

How to treat God, man, animals, situations, healthy eating, etc!

IT's not done away with and it's against the rules of the MJ forum to say so.

Please read our SOP to make sure you don't teach or debate against our SOP.

Our SOP should help you understand what we really believe.

 

[Sundown]

I don't know why my post went to you, sorry about that.

 

[rockytopva]

"Jesus Christ" WAS a Pharisee.

If you do not agree, compare HIS doctrines with that of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20

 

[rockytopva]

26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee. - Genesis 27

The blessings of Israel... "Cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee."

I simply find it wise to bless, whether they have accepted the second covenant or not, the children of Israel.

 

[ContraMundum]

How is that?!?!? He railed AGAINST the Pharisees and called them a brood of vipers and hypocrites!

Not all pharisees were the same- Nicodemus also was a pharisee for example.

 

[Righttruth]

No way. No Essene would step foot into the Temple. They had no use for the synagogues either outside their own remote community. So this scripture says otherwise:

Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

That was the old pattern that he followed learnt from His parents. Whether He was a Pharisee or Essene don't matter much. Jesus insisted that one should be born from above to enter the kingdom of God.

 

[pat34lee]

His teachings and the fact that He was asked / allowed to read and speak in synagogues. (ran by the Pharisees)

Have you ever read anything about the gospel teachings from a traditional Jewish source? they are unanimous (those who actually bother to look at HIS teachings) that He was a Pharisee - fitting somewhere between Hillel and Shammai. (closer to Hillel on most points)

One argument against Yeshua as a Pharisee.

Matthew 10:24-25
24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
25 "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.

Who could have been his teacher/master other than Yahweh?

 

[Alithis]

His teachings and the fact that He was asked / allowed to read and speak in synagogues. (ran by the Pharisees)

Have you ever read anything about the gospel teachings from a traditional Jewish source? they are unanimous (those who actually bother to look at HIS teachings) that He was a Pharisee - fitting somewhere between Hillel and Shammai. (closer to Hillel on most points)

what a hill of non-existant beans

 

[Dave-W]

Wow. I am amazed at the amount of vitriol against Pharisees in this forum. I would expect it in the Baptist or Pentecostal forums, but HERE???

 

[pat34lee]

Wow. I am amazed at the amount of vitriol against Pharisees in this forum. I would expect it in the Baptist or Pentecostal forums, but HERE???

Did you expect Messianics to disregard Yeshua's words
because the object of them happened to be Jews? It
sounds like the only reason to oppose them, in your
mind, would be antisemitism, which makes you sound
anti-Christian from bashing Baptists and Pentacostals.

 

[visionary]

Not all pharisees were the same- Nicodemus also was a pharisee for example.

I wonder if his uncle, Joseph of Arimathaea, was also a Pharisee.

 

[Dave-W]

I wonder if his uncle, Joseph of Arimathaea, was also a Pharisee.

Indeed he was.

 

[Dave-W]

Did you expect Messianics to disregard Yeshua's words
because the object of them happened to be Jews?

Of course not. But Yeshua's words were not directed at all Pharisees, only those particular ones He was dealing with at the time. Antisemitism extends those words to ALL Pharisees. Anyone who has studied the history and beliefs of the Pharisees would realize that the Lord's criticisms were for violating their own purpose in existing. (i.e. one insider to another)

It sounds like the only reason to oppose them, in your
mind, would be antisemitism,

I have found those who oppose ALL Pharisees are often antisemitic. They describe them as a group in terms that are basically a bunch of evil thugs. That was NOT the case at all. They never even note the difference between Hillel's Pharisees and those from Shammai.

which makes you sound anti-Christian from bashing Baptists and Pentecostals.

I am certainly not anti-christian or anti pentecostal. (I was raised pentecostal) I do have a few doctrinal issues with the Baptists. But the attitude across the board in mainstream protestant Christianity demonizes the Pharisees. That attitude is what I am opposing.