What is God without a universe?

[Curious Atheist]

I hear a lot of random statements made about God, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, timeless and so on. But before he supposedly made everything, what meaning did his existence actually have? This is kind of a spin off question regarding the ‘chicken and the egg’ situation of the big bang and pre-universe. But it doesn’t seem reasonable to not apply this same scrutiny to God.

The first problem is, with nothing in existence he has no power over anything at all, there is nothing to know or anywhere to be. But then at some point he realised he could create atoms and molecules in this odd existence he must have had, which formed stars and over billions of years we had a universe with planets, moons, black holes and particles so small and fast we have only just detected them. He then decided after a dozen billion years or so to create life in his image (how can he look like a human in a non-existent place??) so out of the trillions of rocks decided to create life on one of them. He set about a system where this life could replicate itself and altered the way they evolved over another billion years by laboriously altering the environment to produce hundreds of millions of species. He changed the environment enough, or gave some creatures such an advantage that 99.99% of all of these new species were extinct before the first signs on humanity evolved, which was his sole purpose in the first place. So that seems to be the modern version of the creation story. He now has a universe where is all powerful, which for some reason he wanted. So, if he is timeless does he also still exist in this pre-universe place too? If he is timeless why did he need to create anything at all, if he is in all times and all places at once then he cannot possibly be bored or be surprised by anything can he? So what purpose does it serve for him to actually do anything? He doesn’t seem to have free will of his own in other words, because he has already done anything he could think about doing at some point in time, meaning he doesn’t think…he has done everything he could ever do.

Does this make sense to anyone? If he is timeless then he cannot achieve anything new, it is a set destiny he has to follow. Or if you argue that he is timeless but still alters things at will at that time, then he is not timeless. Or if you insist that he does both ‘cos he is god’ then what possible joy could he get from creation since he knows what will eventually happen in the billions of years, which requires no waiting for a timeless being. The first three rules out of the ten commandments he gave revolve around him being selfish and wanting attention, but since he has already experienced all of the worship he will ever get, before the creation of time and the universe then why is it important? One argument could be that God and the universe began at the same time, but then he is not timeless either.

If this makes any sense, can anyone explain how God can be timeless and what he did with himself before the universe, or why a universe needed to exist for him to enjoy it?

 

[ViaCrucis]

In a fairly big way, it really doesn't even make sense to speak of a "time before the universe".

Rather we would say God is, and that the universe is God's creation. It may not even be meaningful to try and talk about God apart from His creation. Our very concept of existence is based upon our observation of a universe that exists, when we speak about God we are not speaking about "an existence", but rather The Existant; of which any intelligible concept of existence (i.e., the universe) is a reflection of.

Our observational perspective is that we see that there is existence (the universe) and that is our only reference point. The only way we can relate to God (The-One-That-Is) is through what He has created.

Even if it were possible to talk about God apart from the universe it would likely only be idle fancy. That's assuming that it's possible at all, of which I'm not sure I'm convinced. I'm not sure it's even possible to disconnect the created from the Creator, being from the Ground of Being.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Curious Atheist]

In a fairly big way, it really doesn't even make sense to speak of a "time before the universe".

Rather we would say God is, and that the universe is God's creation. It may not even be meaningful to try and talk about God apart from His creation. Our very concept of existence is based upon our observation of a universe that exists, when we speak about God we are not speaking about "an existence", but rather The Existant; of which any intelligible concept of existence (i.e., the universe) is a reflection of.

Our observational perspective is that we see that there is existence (the universe) and that is our only reference point. The only way we can relate to God (The-One-That-Is) is through what He has created.

Even if it were possible to talk about God apart from the universe it would likely only be idle fancy. That's assuming that it's possible at all, of which I'm not sure I'm convinced. I'm not sure it's even possible to disconnect the created from the Creator, being from the Ground of Being.

-CryptoLutheran

But doesn't the fact that you say he created the universe imply that at some point in time, there was no universe? So if God IS the universe, then how can god be timeless?

 

[bling]

If nothing changes is there really time?

We really do not need to know to help us fulfill our objective, so this is just speculation. Angles are created beings, so could they have not gone through a human type existence before becoming angels in some prior universe?

Part of the logic behind the idea of the trinity is the fact that Godly type Love might have to have someone to Love, so the trinity has always been needed.

 

[Curious Atheist]

If nothing changes is there really time?

We really do not need to know to help us fulfill our objective, so this is just speculation. Angles are created beings, so could they have not gone through a human type existence before becoming angels in some prior universe?

Part of the logic behind the idea of the trinity is the fact that Godly type Love might have to have someone to Love, so the trinity has always been needed.

The concept of time is confusing, but since Chrsitians very firmly assert that God is real and timeless, it seems reasonable to question this. So maybe it is irrelevant to you, but surely anything about understanding God is important?
I don't see what angels have to do with this, but if they did exist as humans before the universe..then where exactly was that? Where did they come to be in the nothingness, which surely contains only God. But then if God IS the universe, did God not exist before the Big Bang 13 billion years ago?

 

[ViaCrucis]

But doesn't the fact that you say he created the universe imply that at some point in time, there was no universe? So if God IS the universe, then how can god be timeless?

Two things:

1) I didn't say God is the universe. God is wholly other; I said that it's probably meaningless to try and conceive of God apart from the universe.

2) There was no time before the universe. Time is intrinsically part of the universe (space-time). It's no more meaningful to talk about the "time before the universe" than it would be to talk about "space outside the universe". There was no "when" before the universe just as there is no "where" outside the universe.

Together the thrust of my point is that it's impossible to talk about God "before" the universe as though there was time "then" (there was no "then" either); it is also probably not meaningful to describe God apart from how He relates to the universe, as existence reflects Existence.

I realize that last part is probably a difficult one. We tend to think of things as "existing", that is, a thing with ontological reality. When I talk about God as "Existent" "Existence" "Being" as "Is" I'm trying to go beyond saying God just happens to exist.

To say God is is a far more profound statement than to say "that cloud is there" or "I am here". God is, therefore things are. This isn't just describing God as cause, but as the foundational reality that makes talking about existence meaningful and comprehensible.

Some philosophers talk about "necessary being" and "contingent being", with God as "necessary being"; everything we observe is contingent upon something else. I am contingent on the fact that my parents met and procreated, the clouds are contingent upon the atmospheric conditions which produce them, in turn the act of particles interacting with one another, with atoms which make up the building blocks of matter all relies on the physical properties and laws which govern the universe, and subsequently all of the laws of physics are contingent on the fact that anything exists at all.

God is not contingent, God is "necessary being", that is He is because He is. There's no when or where with God; God is.

What that means is that when I say God is Existence, I'm saying He's Existence beyond existence, Being beyond being. There is nothing more real than God. This isn't a denial that the universe is real--it is--but it is a contingent reality; contingent on there Being something of which makes reality a meaningful concept in the first place, and that is God.

In turn, we are contingent beings part of a contingent universe; we are part of the universe and it's the only thing we experience and observe: as such our only experience of existence is that of created existence, of the universe itself. Therefore we ultimately "perceive" God from the reference point of what we experience as creatures in the universe; and this is ultimately the only way with which God has ever related to us.

Therefore is there any possible meaningful discourse possible in discussing God apart from His relation to and with the universe? I'm not sure, but I'd wager probably not.

This is probably just a really, really complicated way of talking about God as being fundamentally ineffable in His Essence, where we can only know God through His Energies (His acts, e.g. in creation, in the universe).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[elman]

I hear a lot of random statements made about God, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, timeless and so on. But before he supposedly made everything, what meaning did his existence actually have? This is kind of a spin off question regarding the ‘chicken and the egg’ situation of the big bang and pre-universe. But it doesn’t seem reasonable to not apply this same scrutiny to God.

The first problem is, with nothing in existence he has no power over anything at all, there is nothing to know or anywhere to be. But then at some point he realised he could create atoms and molecules in this odd existence he must have had, which formed stars and over billions of years we had a universe with planets, moons, black holes and particles so small and fast we have only just detected them. He then decided after a dozen billion years or so to create life in his image (how can he look like a human in a non-existent place??) so out of the trillions of rocks decided to create life on one of them. He set about a system where this life could replicate itself and altered the way they evolved over another billion years by laboriously altering the environment to produce hundreds of millions of species. He changed the environment enough, or gave some creatures such an advantage that 99.99% of all of these new species were extinct before the first signs on humanity evolved, which was his sole purpose in the first place. So that seems to be the modern version of the creation story. He now has a universe where is all powerful, which for some reason he wanted. So, if he is timeless does he also still exist in this pre-universe place too? If he is timeless why did he need to create anything at all, if he is in all times and all places at once then he cannot possibly be bored or be surprised by anything can he? So what purpose does it serve for him to actually do anything? He doesn’t seem to have free will of his own in other words, because he has already done anything he could think about doing at some point in time, meaning he doesn’t think…he has done everything he could ever do.

Does this make sense to anyone? If he is timeless then he cannot achieve anything new, it is a set destiny he has to follow. Or if you argue that he is timeless but still alters things at will at that time, then he is not timeless. Or if you insist that he does both ‘cos he is god’ then what possible joy could he get from creation since he knows what will eventually happen in the billions of years, which requires no waiting for a timeless being. The first three rules out of the ten commandments he gave revolve around him being selfish and wanting attention, but since he has already experienced all of the worship he will ever get, before the creation of time and the universe then why is it important? One argument could be that God and the universe began at the same time, but then he is not timeless either.

If this makes any sense, can anyone explain how God can be timeless and what he did with himself before the universe, or why a universe needed to exist for him to enjoy it?

We don't know what existed before the universe existed. I don't see that making very much difference to us. I don't know what God did with Himself before the universe. I don't know what He does with Himself now all the time. I don't see the problem there you apparently see. It makes sense to me that a being that is by nature loving would create a universe and other beings that could be the receipiant of His/Her/It's love and could respond to the love of the Creator with love. Why would it not make sense such a Creator existed before what it created existed. It certainly makes no sense that the Creator and the creation began at the same time and it makes no sense at all to me that the Creator did not exist before the creation existed. I see no reason to believe the Creator does not have free will. Being created in the image of God would mean being able to chose to love or not love as He is able to do.

 

[elman]

But doesn't the fact that you say he created the universe imply that at some point in time, there was no universe? So if God IS the universe, then how can god be timeless?

I don't think God is the universe. I don't believe the Creator is the creation. If God is the creation, He cannot be the Creator.

 

[CriticalThought]

I hear a lot of random statements made about God, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, timeless and so on. But before he supposedly made everything, what meaning did his existence actually have? This is kind of a spin off question regarding the ‘chicken and the egg’ situation of the big bang and pre-universe. But it doesn’t seem reasonable to not apply this same scrutiny to God.

The first problem is, with nothing in existence he has no power over anything at all, there is nothing to know or anywhere to be. But then at some point he realised he could create atoms and molecules in this odd existence he must have had, which formed stars and over billions of years we had a universe with planets, moons, black holes and particles so small and fast we have only just detected them. He then decided after a dozen billion years or so to create life in his image (how can he look like a human in a non-existent place??) so out of the trillions of rocks decided to create life on one of them. He set about a system where this life could replicate itself and altered the way they evolved over another billion years by laboriously altering the environment to produce hundreds of millions of species. He changed the environment enough, or gave some creatures such an advantage that 99.99% of all of these new species were extinct before the first signs on humanity evolved, which was his sole purpose in the first place. So that seems to be the modern version of the creation story. He now has a universe where is all powerful, which for some reason he wanted. So, if he is timeless does he also still exist in this pre-universe place too? If he is timeless why did he need to create anything at all, if he is in all times and all places at once then he cannot possibly be bored or be surprised by anything can he? So what purpose does it serve for him to actually do anything? He doesn’t seem to have free will of his own in other words, because he has already done anything he could think about doing at some point in time, meaning he doesn’t think…he has done everything he could ever do.

Does this make sense to anyone? If he is timeless then he cannot achieve anything new, it is a set destiny he has to follow. Or if you argue that he is timeless but still alters things at will at that time, then he is not timeless. Or if you insist that he does both ‘cos he is god’ then what possible joy could he get from creation since he knows what will eventually happen in the billions of years, which requires no waiting for a timeless being. The first three rules out of the ten commandments he gave revolve around him being selfish and wanting attention, but since he has already experienced all of the worship he will ever get, before the creation of time and the universe then why is it important? One argument could be that God and the universe began at the same time, but then he is not timeless either.

If this makes any sense, can anyone explain how God can be timeless and what he did with himself before the universe, or why a universe needed to exist for him to enjoy it?

I've often wondered this myself. After watching some lectures with Carl Sagan (from the Cosmos series) Sagan explains that creatures of different dimensions always cast a shadow one dimension lower than what dimension they exist in. For example your or I are three dimensional and cast a two dimensional shadow. Would it be possible that "God" or the mortal embodiment "Jesus Christ" would just be a fourth dimensional creature? If he were a fourth dimensional creature, he would be able to do things that are outright impossible in our dimension. Just a thought.

 

[jpcedotal]

What is God without or before the universe?

Everything...

God had to create a space apart from Himself first...

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

heaven as referred to here is the universe...without the anything in it, no planets or stars or anything...just outer "space"...that was not God, that was something else.

 

[CriticalThought]

heaven as referred to here is the universe...without the anything in it, no planets or stars or anything...just outer "space"...that was not God, that was something else.

How could there be "space" without anything in it? Even the "space" in our universe is not empty. There is more dark matter than there is matter. And where there is matter space is occupied by various elements (ergo Hydrogen Helium and the planets are composed mostly of metals or other elements.) How could there exist a space that is perfectly empty? That is absurd.

 

[jpcedotal]

How could there be "space" without anything in it? Even the "space" in our universe is not empty. There is more dark matter than there is matter. And where there is matter space is occupied by various elements (ergo Hydrogen Helium and the planets are composed mostly of metals or other elements.) How could there exist a space that is perfectly empty? That is absurd.

If we can't agree on the truth of the first four words, "In the beginning God."..then there is nothing gained by talking about anything that comes after.

 

[Theofane]

What is God without a universe?

We don't know what God is with a universe, now do we?

 

[jpcedotal]

We don't know what God is with a universe, now do we?

i don't know...the Bible gives us a pretty good picture of what God is and what He is not.

 

[CriticalThought]

If we can't agree on the truth of the first four words, "In the beginning God."..then there is nothing gained by talking about anything that comes after.

Okay, let's take for granted for a moment that there is a God. And let's say that this God did in fact create an alternate universe called "heaven" along with the known universe. Now when I was a kid I was told that in "heaven" the streets would be paved with gold. And from Chemistry I know that gold is an element with 79 protons in it's nucleus. So when you told me there there was nothing (I think you called it "space) in the universe known as heaven, I have to ask myself how you came to this conclusion. Do you understand? If there are elements in "heaven" there has to be matter. And probably some form of physics. Now it's possible that "heaven" exists in another universe and different laws of physics apply there. But if there are elements that are the same as they are in our universe, there has to be matter. Furthermore there has to be Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons.

 

[Theofane]

Would it be possible that "God" or the mortal embodiment "Jesus Christ" would just be a fourth dimensional creature? If he were a fourth dimensional creature, he would be able to do things that are outright impossible in our dimension. Just a thought.

A very good thought! Even if you reject the concept of Deity altogether, it's possible for the mind to wrap itself around the miracles of the Man Jesus Christ by thinking of him as having hyperdimensional powers or access to higher dimensions!

 

[CriticalThought]

A very good thought! Even if you reject the concept of Deity altogether, it's possible to for the mind to wrap itself around the miracles of the Man Jesus Christ by thinking of him as having hyperdimensional powers or access to higher dimensions!

I get the feeling that you are being sarcastic here. So I am going to explain my thought process further. Again, I stated that in higher dimensions entities that exist in those dimensions (physicists theorize there are up to eleven dimensions in our universe) are capable of things that are completely impossible in our universe. For example you exist in the third dimension and cast a two dimensional shadow. Now if your shadow existed in it's own universe running around with other shadows and you did something that were impossible in the second dimension (reaching inward -- depth -- instead of lengthwise or heightwise) your shadow would have to translate that to it's dimension and it would be doing something that did not make sense or would otherwise be impossible in it's universe. The bible says that mankind is unable to understand God, what if that is because he exists in another dimension?

 

[jpcedotal]

Okay, let's take for granted for a moment that there is a God. And let's say that this God did in fact create an alternate universe called "heaven" along with the known universe. Now when I was a kid I was told that in "heaven" the streets would be paved with gold. And from Chemistry I know that gold is an element with 79 protons in it's nucleus. So when you told me there there was nothing (I think you called it "space) in the universe known as heaven, I have to ask myself how you came to this conclusion. Do you understand? If there are elements in "heaven" there has to be matter. And probably some form of physics. Now it's possible that "heaven" exists in another universe and different laws of physics apply there. But if there are elements that are the same as they are in our universe, there has to be matter. Furthermore there has to be Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons.

I never said there was nothing in the universe known as heaven. There are actually three places one being the day sky (earth's atmosphere), the night sky (the black space where the stars and planets reside), and spiritual heaven (where God resides on his throne)

 

[Theofane]

I get the feeling that you are being sarcastic here. So I am going to explain my thought process further. Again, I stated that in higher dimensions entities that exist in those dimensions (physicists theorize there are up to eleven dimensions in our universe) are capable of things that are completely impossible in our universe. For example you exist in the third dimension and cast a two dimensional shadow. Now if your shadow existed in it's own universe running around with other shadows and you did something that were impossible in the second dimension (reaching inward -- depth -- instead of lengthwise or heightwise) your shadow would have to translate that to it's dimension and it would be doing something that did not make sense or would otherwise be impossible in it's universe. The bible says that mankind is unable to understand God, what if that is because he exists in another dimension?

I wasn't being sarcastic at all.

God, I think, exists in all dimensions, so what we can see and understand is of course limited by that. Just because something manifests in our dimension, doesn't mean it originated there.

(Carl Sagan really was gifted!)

 

[Theofane]

I never said there was nothing in the universe known as heaven. There are actually three places one being the day sky (earth's atmosphere), the night sky (the black space where the stars and planets reside), and spiritual heaven (where God resides on his throne)

And the "firmaments" in the heavens actually refer to the 8/9 planets and their orbits.