What if it were you?

Geralt

Unsurpassed Сasual Dating - Verified Women
Supporter
Apr 9, 2016
793
258
GB
Visit site
✟67,802.00
Country
Philippines
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
i'm not sure the point to all these questions and not related to eternal suffering, unless of course you want to suggest a loophole in scripture to support your original contention. just go straight to the point, what is it that really troubles you ?

Surely. I posted as concise an understanding as possible. To actually write out everything in respect to this question would necessitate novel-length replies. Though, I will do so, but beginning small to get agreement in the small things first.

First I would cite: Matthew 13:34

Would you agree then, that all of the words of Jesus were to the people "in parables"?

Secondly: John 6:63, 1 Corinthians 2:14

Would you agree that the words of Jesus are "spirit"? And that the "things of God" are "spiritually discerned"?

Thirdly: John 1:1, John 1:14

Would you agree that Jesus is "the Word made flesh"? And thereby perfectly expresses the nature of the Word to speak to the people "in parables"?
 
Upvote 0

wayfaring man

Veteran
Jan 25, 2004
7,761
1,169
✟20,565.00
Faith
Non-Denom
After reading the 1st Page -

Any group / denomination that claims exclusively to be the only heaven-bound people are wrong / dead wrong.

Not sure if this is common among Church of Christ....? Maybe only some claim that....but it's not too rare in this competitive world where bravado and hyperbole overshadow discernment and humility.

Personally find it hard to be absolutely definite about things I've not personally witnessed or experienced.

I believe without Salvation, we are lost, and destined for an eternal, horrible fate...And that is largely why Salvation is such a Tremendous Gift !

If we were only being saved from a temporary waitng period which was only mildly uncomfortable....why would Christ have had to suffer so terribly ?!

Or how could we be so overwhelmingly grateful that our everlasting, joyful allegiance is secured as a supernatural outcome ?!

It appears that God is using juxtaposed, ultimate extremes to create a stability where a 'bliss only' environment had previously allowed for insurgency. And that state of rebellion was allowed, so that we could accept the necessity of the much more extreme proposal which we now face.

But these things are seen, 'through a glass darkly', so some of the exact details are unclear.

I do accept that it is wrong to wish hell for anyone....for we should not wish for others, what we would not wish for ourselves.

And if God is just trying to scare us (which I personally don't believe), then to dismiss hell as an idle threat - would defeat it's purpose, would it not ?

Say for a moment no one really knows - would it not be better to believe hell awaits us if we reject God's will, and then find out it did not. Then to believe hell did not await as such a fiery consequence, only to find out it really does ?!

But besides these things...many appear to try to intimidate others, out of a prejudicial sense of duty to an entity much less sovereign than The Living God. Or even throw the idea of hell around as a form of assault.

A word came to me to address this -

We all get what we wish for.....what we wish for our enemies !

And what do most wish upon their enemies ?

But that they die and go to hell ?!

And what happens to most people ?

They die and go to hell !

I rest my case.

**********************************************

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. <---> Matthew 5:43-48

May The Lord Be Pleased !
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If one reads the Bible and only what it offers, there is little indication of the 'fiery hell' created by the Catholic Church.
But for the fact that the "Catholic Church" did not create the "fiery hell." There was no "Catholic Church" to create anything until 1075 AD when the bishop of Rome unilaterally assumed control of the church by issuing 27 Dictatus Papae, Dictates of the Pope. The ECF wrote about hell as it is understood today 400-900 years before 1075.
Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: "I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter 19
And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,” and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,
A certain woman lived with an intemperate husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63
In the Apocalypse also, we read the anger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.
2. Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols, how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed and served the priests of the devil; . .
Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3
Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] Address Chapter 13
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First
the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal! a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?
Origen [A.D. 185-230-254] De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3
nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.
Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35
Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.
[It's pretty clear that if one wanted to 'scare' their followers into obedience, the creation of eternal punishment would be a pretty potent tool.
Presupposition is not evidence
From what I have read in the Bible, those that are judged according to 'second death' will simply 'cease to exist'.
See quotes from native Greek speaking ECF, above, none of whom mention "cease to exist."
The idea of 'eternal pain and suffering' would require eternal life. Since only those 'saved' will receive eternal life, it is pretty obvious that those that are 'not saved' will NOT inherit eternal life. Therefore it would be impossible for them to suffer eternally.
Blessings, MEC
Circular argument. The same type of circular reasoning could be used for the eternal punishment argument. The wicked must have some kind of eternal life because Jesus said eternal punishment. Jesus and the original disciples were Jews. Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,576
6,063
EST
✟992,249.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
i.e. did you read all that.
"hell" did not come from rcc catholics.
it came from other (severe, fatal) errors before rcc catholics.
Of course I read it. I posted it. Assumes that the Jews were wrong before and during the time of Jesus and Jesus didn't criticize or correct them but taught virtually the same thing they believed about hell e.g. these go away into eternal punishment," "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,”“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”“woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
 
Upvote 0

wayfaring man

Veteran
Jan 25, 2004
7,761
1,169
✟20,565.00
Faith
Non-Denom
If one reads the Bible and only what it offers, there is little indication of the 'fiery hell' created by the Catholic Church.

It's pretty clear that if one wanted to 'scare' their followers into obedience, the creation of eternal punishment would be a pretty potent tool.

From what I have read in the Bible, those that are judged according to 'second death' will simply 'cease to exist'.

The idea of 'eternal pain and suffering' would require eternal life. Since only those 'saved' will receive eternal life, it is pretty obvious that those that are 'not saved' will NOT inherit eternal life. Therefore it would be impossible for them to suffer eternally.

Blessings,

MEC


Familiar with that idea....but there are a several Bible verses which indicate an eternal torment, which includes both fallen angels and lost human beings. Some are referenced below -

**********************************

Matthew 25:31-46

Revelation 20:7-15

**********************************

I prayed for understanding about the fallen / lost having an eternal. tormented existence.

What came to me is that while our bodies and souls may die / be destroyed, our spirit (which is a tiny measure of God's Spirit ) cannot die. And the offense of unrepentantly rejecting / rebelling against The Son is so offensive to The Father, that He doesn't even want that residue of spirit (from such beings) to return unto Himself...and consequently, that consciousness is sentenced to eternal separation / punishment.

**********************************

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, <---> Hebrews 12:22+23
 
Upvote 0

Victor E.

Disciple of Christ
Supporter
Aug 3, 2016
2,712
404
31
U.S
✟201,211.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's easy to say "God is just" and "God is love" and "Hell is necessary to implement Divine Justice" when the one that is going there is, the other guy. But I wanted to see honest replies here, so please state in your comment, if you believe in a literal fiery hell where people suffer for eternity, no chance of parole.

I was raised in a denomination called the "Church of Christ", I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's extremely legalistic, we might say. No dancing. Musical instruments in the singing of hymns is a one-way ticket to fire and brimstone. They believe, and up until I was in my teens so did I, that they are the only true church. If you're not a member of the Church of Christ? Bad news. It's hell for you. It's hell fire. It's eternal horror for you.

Now, they "reason" much like any other literal "hellfire" teachers- it's completely moral and justified because "Divine Justice". God can't just not be Holy, and so you pay the price like any other "sinner". Because you're in the wrong church, and didn't understand the bible the right way. Did you trust God to guide your steps home to heaven? Doesn't matter because your feet are going into the fire. Did you pray for understanding day and night, and try and try to be a good Christian? Doesn't matter, you joined the wrong church. It's endless horror for you. Because Holy Justice.

So my question to you, if you are a literal "you're going to hell" teacher/believer who says this to others; if the dreadful day comes, and the Lord says to you "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire" would you still believe your own words about "Divine Justice" (or, whatever is the excuse for having such a literal end for people of any kind) justifying your eternal horror to come? It's one of those goose-gander questions.

If a Church of Christ member were right here telling you, you are going to burn in hell forever for not being in our church... would you agree with them that it would be just and holy and loving for God to thrust you into your eternal nightmare for, not understanding correctly? And bear in mind, to them, you are "willingly ignorant" and it is all your fault that you choose the wrong church; after all, the bible (to them) is easy to understand, and you have no excuse for your failure to leave your false Christian church and worship God rightly, as He commands: without musical instruments, and absolutely no dancing.

Also, if you're a member of the Church of Christ, I mean no offence to you at all. I respect your walk, and simply use this denomination as a hypothetical since I know the teachings concerning the other churches.

To answer that question is to assume that the question being asked is NOT earthly, unspiritual, or demonic in nature. It is a trap question, in that regard. In this case, I would just say yes. Knowing the assurance of my salvation, and praying that they could come to know the truth that God's kindness is to lead us to repentance and mercy rather than judgment. It is hard to answer a question that has already attained an answer for itself. I mean this with all due respect.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ChristianFromKazakhstan

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2016
1,585
575
45
ALMATY
✟29,800.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's easy to say "God is just" and "God is love" and "Hell is necessary to implement Divine Justice" when the one that is going there is, the other guy. But I wanted to see honest replies here, so please state in your comment, if you believe in a literal fiery hell where people suffer for eternity, no chance of parole.

I was raised in a denomination called the "Church of Christ", I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's extremely legalistic, we might say. No dancing. Musical instruments in the singing of hymns is a one-way ticket to fire and brimstone. They believe, and up until I was in my teens so did I, that they are the only true church. If you're not a member of the Church of Christ? Bad news. It's hell for you. It's hell fire. It's eternal horror for you.

Now, they "reason" much like any other literal "hellfire" teachers- it's completely moral and justified because "Divine Justice". God can't just not be Holy, and so you pay the price like any other "sinner". Because you're in the wrong church, and didn't understand the bible the right way. Did you trust God to guide your steps home to heaven? Doesn't matter because your feet are going into the fire. Did you pray for understanding day and night, and try and try to be a good Christian? Doesn't matter, you joined the wrong church. It's endless horror for you. Because Holy Justice.

So my question to you, if you are a literal "you're going to hell" teacher/believer who says this to others; if the dreadful day comes, and the Lord says to you "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire" would you still believe your own words about "Divine Justice" (or, whatever is the excuse for having such a literal end for people of any kind) justifying your eternal horror to come? It's one of those goose-gander questions.

If a Church of Christ member were right here telling you, you are going to burn in hell forever for not being in our church... would you agree with them that it would be just and holy and loving for God to thrust you into your eternal nightmare for, not understanding correctly? And bear in mind, to them, you are "willingly ignorant" and it is all your fault that you choose the wrong church; after all, the bible (to them) is easy to understand, and you have no excuse for your failure to leave your false Christian church and worship God rightly, as He commands: without musical instruments, and absolutely no dancing.

Also, if you're a member of the Church of Christ, I mean no offence to you at all. I respect your walk, and simply use this denomination as a hypothetical since I know the teachings concerning the other churches.

Oh no. What a cult!!! Sorry. You got out, right? Good!!! Glad for you. Any family still stuck in this nightmare???? Oh no I hope not . Must be so terrible. Totalitarian cult.

Why you need explanation for divine justice, I don't know. God is God. If He wants, He can burn all in literal hell forever and ever and ever. Huge torments . Just to make Himself happy...

Well, not. We copy-paste our ideas of ourself to God. He's not us. So, answering your question, people "send" other people to hell, God doesn't.
 
Upvote 0

John Hyperspace

UnKnown ReMember
Oct 3, 2016
2,385
1,272
53
Hyperspace
✟35,143.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To answer that question is to assume that the question being asked is NOT earthly, unspiritual, or demonic in nature. It is a trap question, in that regard. In this case, I would just say yes. Knowing the assurance of my salvation, and praying that they could come to know the truth that God's kindness is to lead us to repentance and mercy rather than judgment. It is hard to answer a question that has already attained an answer for itself. I mean this with all due respect.

I understand. The key words in your post are "knowing the assurance of my salvation": again the hypothetical is asking, what if you have "believed wrongly"; is it moral to place such a sentence on you for being "wrong" about your theology. As I said, it is easy to say "yes" when you follow with the words "knowing assurance of my salvation" since all you are really doing is judging someone else as "worthy of justified eternal horror for, being wrong"
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Victor E.
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

John Hyperspace

UnKnown ReMember
Oct 3, 2016
2,385
1,272
53
Hyperspace
✟35,143.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
According to my watch, it's time for me to bow out of this thread. Thanks to all for the lively discussion, and I hope I've offended no one through raising this question to discuss. I've enjoyed all thoughts and replies, and consider and respect them all, as do I each of you.

Peace.

p.s. ChristianFromKazakhstan I am not a member of that particular denomination but confess that, to this day, I still do not dance. Not that I think it is a sin, but that, I simply refuse to dance.
 
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It's easy to say "God is just" and "God is love" and "Hell is necessary to implement Divine Justice" when the one that is going there is, the other guy. But I wanted to see honest replies here, so please state in your comment, if you believe in a literal fiery hell where people suffer for eternity, no chance of parole.

I was raised in a denomination called the "Church of Christ", I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's extremely legalistic, we might say. No dancing. Musical instruments in the singing of hymns is a one-way ticket to fire and brimstone. They believe, and up until I was in my teens so did I, that they are the only true church. If you're not a member of the Church of Christ? Bad news. It's hell for you. It's hell fire. It's eternal horror for you.

Now, they "reason" much like any other literal "hellfire" teachers- it's completely moral and justified because "Divine Justice". God can't just not be Holy, and so you pay the price like any other "sinner". Because you're in the wrong church, and didn't understand the bible the right way. Did you trust God to guide your steps home to heaven? Doesn't matter because your feet are going into the fire. Did you pray for understanding day and night, and try and try to be a good Christian? Doesn't matter, you joined the wrong church. It's endless horror for you. Because Holy Justice.

So my question to you, if you are a literal "you're going to hell" teacher/believer who says this to others; if the dreadful day comes, and the Lord says to you "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire" would you still believe your own words about "Divine Justice" (or, whatever is the excuse for having such a literal end for people of any kind) justifying your eternal horror to come? It's one of those goose-gander questions.

If a Church of Christ member were right here telling you, you are going to burn in hell forever for not being in our church... would you agree with them that it would be just and holy and loving for God to thrust you into your eternal nightmare for, not understanding correctly? And bear in mind, to them, you are "willingly ignorant" and it is all your fault that you choose the wrong church; after all, the bible (to them) is easy to understand, and you have no excuse for your failure to leave your false Christian church and worship God rightly, as He commands: without musical instruments, and absolutely no dancing.

Also, if you're a member of the Church of Christ, I mean no offence to you at all. I respect your walk, and simply use this denomination as a hypothetical since I know the teachings concerning the other churches.

it should be worked for overall salvation, the self-interested salvation is not a priority in the true Lord God, so what if we keep our hands off one thing or another but all or many people around us suffer and die and there is no salvation for them?!, Jesus Christ as well as each of His true disciples had worked for overall salvation, not just on their own

Blessings
 
Upvote 0