1. Saying Goodbye to a Great Staffer: Edial
    Please help me wish Edial a wonderful blessed journey as he steps down from CF staff.
    His footprint on our ministry will always remain but his presence will be greatly missed. I'm sure he will come around as a member to all his favorite forums but for now please join me at his profile page to wish him many thanks for the years of service he has brought to us all.
    All of us on CF staff will miss him dearly!!
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
  • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
  • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
  • Access to private conversations with other members.

We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What Does Romans 8:29 Mean?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by zotah, May 16, 2010.

  1. zotah

    zotah Newbie

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    1
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What Does Romans 8:29 Mean?

    Rom 8:29 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Does this say that The Father was predestinated to be the Son. Making the Father into the Son?

    Zotah
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.

    The "whom" in your translation is "those whom" in others. It is a reference to those who are loved and called according to His purpose from v. 28.
     
  3. sealacamp

    sealacamp New Member

    Messages:
    1,359
    Likes Received:
    114
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Christian
    The KJV has it limitations especially for those that speak modern English. Maybe that will help shed some light on the subject for you.

    I don't really understand why so many people here are hung up on the KJV. That is nothing more than a translation from the original language yet many seem to think it it the only viable version of Gods word. How mistaken a view that is since the original is in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. So to understand what is said it is necessary to know how to read Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. So now do the Chinese, Guatamalian, Phillipine, Russian, etc read the bible in its original language or do they have a translation in their language? If it is in their language how does that jive with KJV? The translation that is the best is the one you can understand and the one that maintains its integrity to the original language.

    Sealacamp
     
    spiersdodgerblue likes this.
  4. JM

    JM Predestinarian

    Messages:
    11,343
    Likes Received:
    780
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    CA-Others
    Faith:
    Baptist
  5. Vince53

    Vince53 Junior Member

    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The verse teaches that those who accept Christ are predestined to be made like Him. There is no predestination to accept Christ, to repent, or to believe, however.
     
  6. RobertZ

    RobertZ New Member

    Messages:
    3,531
    Likes Received:
    108
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Baptist

    How does one dead in sins and trespasses choose or accept Christ?
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But you can't give any kind of meaningful exegesis of the passage to get it to say that. You have to divide and conquer. Sigh.
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And that, brother, is the million dollar question.
     
  9. dies-l

    dies-l Guest

    Can you provide any kind of meaningful exigesis to suggest that the foregoing interpretation is unreasonable.

    Honestly, I tend to be think more like an Arminian than a Calvinist. However, I now more open to the idea of predestination than I have been in the past. I look at the way one's circumstances seem to have a pretty significant impact on the choices that that person makes, and I don't think that it is such a logical stretch to say that God predestined it all. My problem has been, and still is, that I don't see how a God who is love could predestine the atrocities of the likes Mao, Stalin, and the risk of Godwinning this thread, Hitler. Also, I can't reconcile a God of love with the reality of Hell if individuals are predestined. So, logically, I am stuck with God is love, Hell is not real, and individual predestination may be accurate; or God is love, Hell is real, and individual predestination cannot be accurate; or God is not love, Hell may be real, and individual predestination may be accurate. The last of the these three options clearly contradicts a plain reading of Scripture, so I am inclined to dismiss it.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.

    The key is what is Paul talking about. He is talking about those who are called according to His purpose. His purpose is conforming people to the image of His son. Where we usually have issues is on what does "foreknew" mean. But regardless of your view of foreknowledge, the passage still says that he called those He foreknew. And it has to be a specific call (although there is a general call to all that is also talked about in Scripture). It has to be specific because it says that those he predestined (whatever your meaning of that) He called, AND those He called He justified. If it was a general call you would be left with everybody being justified, which would be universalism. I doubt you believe that. In reverse order, those who will be glorified are those who are justified. And those who are justified are those who are called. And those who are called are those who were predestined. And those who were predestined are those who were foreknown.

    We need to look at scripture as it reads, and not as we want it, or not based on tradition (which I was for years). I held your views and debated Calvinists on these forums. But it comes down to what scripture actually says, and not how we want to view God. He is sovereign and we are not. He owes us nothing except Hell. But by His grace He has chosen to save some. And by His grace, I mean by His grace.
     
  11. RobertZ

    RobertZ New Member

    Messages:
    3,531
    Likes Received:
    108
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I agree, I too held a free will type of view for the majority of my life as I was raised in a free will baptist church who taught alter calls and sinners prayers so for most of my life I have viewed salvation as something that was up to me.

    Im now seeing more and more evidence to support the calvanist doctrine of salvation and to say the least it has turned my whole world upside down. I often wonder if this is part of what has brought on my deep deep depression that im suffering with right now. Suddenly I feel as though for the majority of my life I have been deceived and im having a very very hard time dealing with that as some of it has led to bitterness and anger and I only hope that their is saving grace still available to me from God.
     
    graceskr likes this.
  12. dies-l

    dies-l Guest

    I am not trying to debate here, but I just want to explore the issue in a little more depth. As I said, I am open to the idea of predestination, but I am yet unconvinced.

    From an exigetical standpoint, one issue that I see is that predestination (which I understand to mean that an individual ultimately cannot choose to accept or reject God as God has already made the choice for him or her) is that the belief seems to be based on a relatively sparse amount of very brief passages in Scripture that seem to talk about the doctrine in passing. For example, the passage we are discussing at present reads as an aside to a discussion of the coming glory that awaits all believers. It would seem that if Paul was intending to suggest such a revolutionary viewpoint, he would have done so in a more extended discourse.

    OTOH, there appears to me to be strong suggestions throughout the NT that there is at least some element of choice involved in the salvation experience. Paul's discourses about faith and works of the law suggest that faith is something that one can choose. Jesus' words in John 3:16 seem to be a call to believe (which implies that one has the capacity to make that choice). The very existence of moral commandments throughout Scripture (especially in the OT) imply the existence of choice. albeit imperfect. IOW, all throughout Scripture, the existence of human will seems to be taken for granted, except for a few short passages within a few lengthy Pauline discourses.

    I acknowledge that I do not have a ready exegetical explanation for these selected passages, except for what has already been proposed. I also acknowledge that I do see a logical basis for predestination in the sense that there is quite a lot of sociological evidence that one's station in life, one's upbringing, and a host of other factors seem to play a huge role in what "choices" that person will ultimately make. As a criminal defense attorney, I have notices that very few of my clients come from well to do or genuinely Christian families (or even deeply spiritual backgrounds of other faiths). I also notice that there are certain similarities among people who do ultimately respond to the Gospel that precede their conversion experience. I say all this to illustrate that I do not think that the doctrine of election/predestination is all that illogical.

    The logical problem that I see comes by way of the biblical understanding of who and what God is. John teaches that God is love. Does love cast one into eternal torment without giving that person so much as the benefit of choosing whether or not to accept the free gift of eternal life? Does love make the offer of salvation for anyone who believes while at the same time denying the power to choose to believe? Does love make commands of those who lack the ability to choose to obey?

    I agree with you that universalism is problematic. The biggest issue that I have with universalism is that it insists that God denies the individual the ability to make choices about his own destiny. In this sense, universalism and electionism are very close cousins, intellectually and theologically. However, as much as I am ready to dismiss universalism as the intellectual fantasy of the few who are not willing to believe in a God who would allow individuals to choose their own demise, I do see enough evidence for electionism that I am not at the point of denying it so outrightly. Nonetheless, I do feel the need for more convincing than I have seen thus far.
     
    graceskr likes this.
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good. I am growing weary of debating.

    Here is the first problem I see in your view of my view. :D I don't believe that predestination is what you say above. I believe that a person can choose, but that their will is to reject God (see Rom 3). In other words, it isn't so much that they can't choose God, but that they won't choose God and have no desire to do so. So predestination means that that because no one will choose God, and that He desires to save some, He will give them a new heart (see Ezekiel 36) and with that new heart (regeneration) will freely choose Christ because to do otherwise would be insane. Plus, I don't think that it is such a revolutionary idea that Paul is promoting. He is promoting what Scripture has always taught.


    There is. The question is why does one choose the way that they choose.

    Go back and read John 3:16. All it is is and if/then statement. If a person believes they will have eternal life. The previous verses suggest that regeneration is needed before one will choose to believe in Christ. But I don't want to get too sidetracked to another passage, unless you choose to do so.
    Again, the question isn't of choice. It is a question of why one chooses a certain path. IOW, are you saved because you are smarter, more spiritual, etc., than then person next to you who heard the same message.


    Interesting perspective.


    Yes, God is love. He is also just. He is also a wrathful God that punishes sin. So with that premise, does God have the right to punish sin? Yes. Do we all deserve the punishment? Yes. Is God obligated in any way to offer us salvation? No. Can God choose to save some? Yes. Does that make Him culpable for those whom He chooses not to save? Not in my view. God isn't fair. And by that, that fact that He chose to save anyone isn't fair. But the fact that He chooses to punish sinners is just.


    I could come up with the most solid case for election. I could give sound exegesis for Romans 8 and 9. John 6 and 8. Ephesians 1 and 2. But that won't convince you. It surely didn't convince me when I was debating Calvinists. For me it was finally letting go of my traditional presupposition. And I let go kicking and screaming because I felt the same as you. But I do appreciate the fact that you haven't condemned us Calvinists as heretics. That happens a lot. So if you want to continue to discuss and ask questions and the such, I am all for it. If not, that is cool too. I just am appreciative of your attitude. Just remember that most of us Calvinists on here are a bit gunshy. So we might overreact to a question. But I will try not to do that.

    Blessings.
     
  14. dies-l

    dies-l Guest

    So, your view is that our natural choice is always to reject God. Do you have a belief as to why that is? Were we made this way or did we choose to be this way?






    Ultimately, the question for me is why would Jesus, Paul et al tell us to believe and have faith if ultimately we will not do so short of divine intervention? Also, why evangelize if certain people will be regenerated and others not as a matter of course? Unless, of course, our very conduct is predetermined, right down to whether we evangelize and obey or disobey, in which case, we run into the problem of evil, which would seem itself to have been predestined by God.






    See, here is where I have a sticking point. I don't see how one can be just and not fair. Fairness does not mean that everyone is treated the same, but it does mean that we are all held to the same standard. Justice to me, seems inseparable from fairness. It is not just, imho, to arbitrarily punish some while excusing others for the same thing.


    I appreciate your openness and the background that you bring to the discussion. And, I agree that it probably is a matter of presuppositions. But, I do think that it is important to explore what the presuppositions of the biblical authors. If the common presupposition was different than the the reality taught by Scripture, I would expect that biblical authors (esp. Paul) would spend a great deal of ink correcting the presupposition. So, I guess it is worthwhile to ask, what were the presuppositions on this question of the 1st Century Jew or Christian?
     
  15. sealacamp

    sealacamp New Member

    Messages:
    1,359
    Likes Received:
    114
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Christian
    Was this a choice or was it predestined or did God just know what the choice would be?

    Sealacamp
     
  16. Phileoeklogos

    Phileoeklogos Alten Schule Baptist

    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    98
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A question for all,


    Is God free? Does He have freedom?
     
  17. faceofbear

    faceofbear Veteran

    Messages:
    1,377
    Likes Received:
    90
    Marital Status:
    In Relationship
    Politics:
    US-Others
    Faith:
    Christian
    This is a lot of questions conservative Calvanists bring up with predestination. However, God commands everyone, everywhere to repent and because He commands to everyone, anyone can choose to accept Christ because it's been made available to everyone.

    At least that's how I view it. In a sense, I drink water day to day, that was predestined, but it was still my choice to drink water. Just because you're "dead" doesn't mean you don't have power to make a decision if God commands it of you (even those who are dead), and He does. He died for the WORLD, He command the WORLD to repent, but the WORLD must receive. It's like Lazarus, Jesus commanded, "Come forth." Hence it was possible, he was raised to life, but he didn't have to walk out of the tomb. He chose to.

    Perhaps this is just my mind, but I see the argument rather futile... though I suppose I'm not the best to be answering this question.
     
  18. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

    Messages:
    7,080
    Likes Received:
    511
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Christian
    Good Day,

    It teaches that which it does not say....:doh:
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It was a choice. And one freely made. But the bigger question, in my view, is why was there a choice to begin with? Why did God give a law in the first place?
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    62,222
    Likes Received:
    1,799
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It isn't a matter of whether or not you have the power to make a decision. It is a matter of whether or not you have the desire to make the correct one.
     
Loading...