What does Heaven mean to you?

LostWarrior

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I honestly don't get what is so meaningful about Heaven. What motivates you to go there?


  • Is it that you get to be next to Jesus/God? Well, how exactly is that "good"? Sure, it would be cool to talk with the creator of the Universe, but even I would get bored after a while.
  • Is it that you would be able to get to your friends and family? Even tho this is a more personal topic, my thoughts on this are that if I was able to re-connect to someone from my family who passed away, then everything that person did for me would become meaningless. Sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if my life or my materials are limited on some way.
  • Is it that your life will be stretched? Again, if we even remove the boredom factor, we fall into the same problem as above: my life only has meaning if it's limited in some way.

I personally don't want to go to Heaven. I don't want to go anywhere. But if I was to chose, I'd chose Hell. Most atheists I know would. As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".
 

aiki

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I honestly don't get what is so meaningful about Heaven. What motivates you to go there?
Love.

  • Is it that you get to be next to Jesus/God? Well, how exactly is that "good"? Sure, it would be cool to talk with the creator of the Universe, but even I would get bored after a while.
Your understanding of God is so small! And inasmuch as you have no love for God it is no wonder you would find His company less than compelling. In fact, I think that if you stood before God as you are now, you would find His presence downright unbearable.

Is it that you would be able to get to your friends and family? Even tho this is a more personal topic, my thoughts on this are that if I was able to re-connect to someone from my family who passed away, then everything that person did for me would become meaningless. Sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if my life or my materials are limited on some way.
From what I understand from Scripture, our relationships with each other will be far fuller, higher and richer than the most intimate and precious relationships we presently experience. We (I speak only of Christians here) will know one another unblemished and obscured by the foul effects of sin. Such wonderful communion with others seems to me to be something greatly to be desired.

I don't see how sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if life is limited in some way. Please explain.

Is it that your life will be stretched? Again, if we even remove the boredom factor, we fall into the same problem as above: my life only has meaning if it's limited in some way.
I think that depends upon what you believe gives your life meaning, doesn't it? Mere length of life is not the point of eternity in Heaven; face-to-face fellowship with God Himself is.

I personally don't want to go to Heaven. I don't want to go anywhere. But if I was to chose, I'd chose Hell. Most atheists I know would. As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".
It seems you're assuming you're going to be able to interact with all these "interesting people" when you're in Hell. If the Bible is right, you need to think again. And as far as who is interesting and who isn't, Nietzsche really can only speak for himself (and perhaps for those who think like him). I doubt very much that those people Nietzsche might find interesting would also be interesting to me. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Selah.
 
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ebia

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LostWarrior said:
I honestly don't get what is so meaningful about Heaven. What motivates you to go there?


[*]Is it that you get to be next to Jesus/God? Well, how exactly is that "good"? Sure, it would be cool to talk with the creator of the Universe, but even I would get bored after a while.
[*]Is it that you would be able to get to your friends and family? Even tho this is a more personal topic, my thoughts on this are that if I was able to re-connect to someone from my family who passed away, then everything that person did for me would become meaningless. Sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if my life or my materials are limited on some way.
[*]Is it that your life will be stretched? Again, if we even remove the boredom factor, we fall into the same problem as above: my life only has meaning if it's limited in some way.


I personally don't want to go to Heaven. I don't want to go anywhere. But if I was to chose, I'd chose Hell. Most atheists I know would. As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".

The historic Christian hope is not going to heaven when you die, but the life of heaven coming to earth. God putting to rights all that has gone wrong and resurrecting his people-put-right into and for that world-put-to-rights.

So a better question is "if you knew what God was doing to put the world right would you want to be involved?"
 
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LostWarrior

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Love.
Your understanding of God is so small! And inasmuch as you have no love for God it is no wonder you would find His company less than compelling. In fact, I think that if you stood before God as you are now, you would find His presence downright unbearable.

You may have a point there; no doubt. Still, my standards for relationships aren't that high that the creator of the Universe can't live up to them... I guess.

From what I understand from Scripture, our relationships with each other will be far fuller, higher and richer than the most intimate and precious relationships we presently experience. We (I speak only of Christians here) will know one another unblemished and obscured by the foul effects of sin. Such wonderful communion with others seems to me to be something greatly to be desired.

Again, this has only meaning if limited. I may not have been very clear in this part, so I'll make myself clearer: if you could enjoy everything in a deep level with your family, that would only have meaning if those moments were impossible to last forever or to repeat themselves (I'm avoiding "dark" words).


I don't see how sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if life is limited in some way. Please explain.

If I gave away 1 year of my life to love and raise you, would that be a sacrifice if I could live forever? If I gave you $1.000.000 would that have any meaning if I could have all the money on the world?


It seems you're assuming you're going to be able to interact with all these "interesting people" when you're in Hell. If the Bible is right, you need to think again. And as far as who is interesting and who isn't, Nietzsche really can only speak for himself (and perhaps for those who think like him). I doubt very much that those people Nietzsche might find interesting would also be interesting to me. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

We have very different standards for "interesting" people. My standards for someone interesting:

  1. Skeptical (nothing to do with religion).
  2. Present-oriented.
  3. Someone who knows how to enjoy life.
  4. Deep thinking.
  5. Someone who can talk with me for hours about pretty much everything and keep me interested.
I think both me and Nietzsche would agree on this.
 
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aiki

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You may have a point there; no doubt. Still, my standards for relationships aren't that high that the creator of the Universe can't live up to them... I guess.

Well, you see, your standards aren't what is important. God doesn't have to meet your standards; you must meet His. He is God, after all, your Maker and Sustainer and the Creator of all that exists.

Again, this has only meaning if limited. I may not have been very clear in this part, so I'll make myself clearer: if you could enjoy everything in a deep level with your family, that would only have meaning if those moments were impossible to last forever or to repeat themselves (I'm avoiding "dark" words).

Why? You're simply making statements here, not providing a rationale for them.

If I gave away 1 year of my life to love and raise you, would that be a sacrifice if I could live forever?

If you could have freely chosen to do otherwise, yes, I think so.

If I gave you $1.000.000 would that have any meaning if I could have all the money on the world?

This doesn't consider the value of the gift of money to the one who receives it who doesn't have all the money in the world. And what if it was given as a reward or to prevent some terrible alternative? Why does the fact that you have great reserves of money make the reasons for giving it away and the positive consequences of doing so any less good?

We have very different standards for "interesting" people. My standards for someone interesting:

  1. Skeptical (nothing to do with religion).
  2. Present-oriented.
  3. Someone who knows how to enjoy life.
  4. Deep thinking.
  5. Someone who can talk with me for hours about pretty much everything and keep me interested.
I think both me and Nietzsche would agree on this.

My point was that it is not a fact, but only an opinion that all the "interesting people" will be absent from Heaven. Personally, I don't know how anyone could be more interesting than the Maker and Sustainer of the Universe. Any one else would be an impossibly huge step down on the Interesting Scale from Him - even using the standard you've offered.

Selah.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I honestly don't get what is so meaningful about Heaven. What motivates you to go there?


  • Is it that you get to be next to Jesus/God? Well, how exactly is that "good"? Sure, it would be cool to talk with the creator of the Universe, but even I would get bored after a while.
  • Is it that you would be able to get to your friends and family? Even tho this is a more personal topic, my thoughts on this are that if I was able to re-connect to someone from my family who passed away, then everything that person did for me would become meaningless. Sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if my life or my materials are limited on some way.
  • Is it that your life will be stretched? Again, if we even remove the boredom factor, we fall into the same problem as above: my life only has meaning if it's limited in some way.

I personally don't want to go to Heaven. I don't want to go anywhere. But if I was to chose, I'd chose Hell. Most atheists I know would. As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".

In the West, specifically since the 18th-19th centuries there's been a lot of confusion over Christian teaching on "the after life".

The concept of "Heaven" has become deeply convoluted, confused, and amalgamated into this hodge-podge of ideas that has often left many with the idea that:

"When I die I go to heaven to live there forever with God."

This was never the historic teaching of the Christian faith. It's not the official teaching of any mainstream Christian Church. If you were to look at the various confessional literature of most Protestant denominations you'd find that they all confess the historic Christian belief in the resurrection of the body and eternal life in the age to come.

So let's unravel this whole thing by first stating emphatically that "Heaven" as in "this spiritual place, somewhere up there, where God and the angels dwell is to be our home for all eternity; where we with these ethereal 'bodies' strum harps like angels sing-songing it up forever and ever" is complete and utter garbage. This has never been the teaching of Christianity, you will not find it in the Christian Bible, you will not find it in any of the Christian Creeds, you will not find it in any of the writings of the ancient Church Fathers, or in teachings of Christian theologians throughout the centuries--whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. From St. Paul to St. Thomas Aquinas to Martin Luther to John Wesley and so on there is an emphatic belief that after Christ comes again at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and that God will make a new heavens and a new earth, restoring and renewing this creation where justice and peace will dwell forever and ever.

Now Christianity has taught that when we die we go to be with Christ. The Bible itself doesn't go into any detail whatsoever as to what this means or entails. However that isn't the full story, and Scripture isn't very interested in that part of the story. It's far more interested in resurrection. The locus of all Christian faith is the resurrection, Jesus from from the dead. But that is meaningless in and of itself, it would just be a sort of happy happenstance. But it's front and center in Christian thought precisely because it is the beginning of God's work of renewal, of new creation which is culminated, finalized at Christ's return when the dead are raised and there is the restoration of all things. St. Paul goes so far as to say that "if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen ... our faith is worthless".

Thus this "going to Heaven when we die" idea is really just an expansion upon the idea that between death and resurrection we are with Christ. Whatever that means is largely unspoken and we don't really know anything of it, though it does seem to indicate a living and conscious presence in and with God. It is intermediate, not final.

Now as for the final state, the real deal which Scripture does talk about quite frequently and which we have confessed for two thousand years--the resurrection of the dead and the world to come--we cannot say much about what exactly it will be like. There Scripture only offers us glimpses of this profound reality. St. Paul likens it to us currently seeing through a dim glass or mirror, but then "face to face"; St. John says that "what we will be has not been made known, but when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.". St. Paul contrasts our present bodily existence with that future bodily existence by calling the present body a psuchekos soma (a "soul-powered body") while calling the resurrected body a pneumatikos soma (a "Spirit-powered body"). We receive from the ancient Israelite Prophets a number of visionary depictions, for example Isaiah speaks of wolf and lamb laying together, of children playing near viper dens without fear, and that even the lion will eat straw like the ox.

This isn't harps and choirs on golden streets. This is dirt and soil, life and breath. It is walking, playing, running, doing, living.

I think life is a good thing, and for there to be a time when children and parents can be reunited, friends coming together again, and the whole of humanity, and the whole world, being restored to such a life gathered together in the unity, love and beauty of God; if this be, count me in.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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elman

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I honestly don't get what is so meaningful about Heaven. What motivates you to go there?


  • Is it that you get to be next to Jesus/God? Well, how exactly is that "good"? Sure, it would be cool to talk with the creator of the Universe, but even I would get bored after a while.
  • Is it that you would be able to get to your friends and family? Even tho this is a more personal topic, my thoughts on this are that if I was able to re-connect to someone from my family who passed away, then everything that person did for me would become meaningless. Sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if my life or my materials are limited on some way.
  • Is it that your life will be stretched? Again, if we even remove the boredom factor, we fall into the same problem as above: my life only has meaning if it's limited in some way.

I personally don't want to go to Heaven. I don't want to go anywhere. But if I was to chose, I'd chose Hell. Most atheists I know would. As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".

How dumb is it to chose eternal pain or eternal death over eternal life? Neitzsche's statement is stupid. Think about it. Assuming you would get bored talking to God is alright for a child, but if one matures a little, it makes no sense. You are assuming something about something you have no way to imagine. You don't know if God exist and you don't know if heaven exists and you have no idea of what heaven will be like if it does exist and you worry about getting bored. You might think about waiting until you are bored to complain about it. If there is no afterlife--no heaven then our destiny is oblivion and ultimatly meaninglessness. Heaven is my hope of meaning in this life. I trully cannot relate to your desire for oblivion. I love life and have loved life. Unless life became unbearable for some reason I would never prefer death over life.
 
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FundiMentalist

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In the West, specifically since the 18th-19th centuries there's been a lot of confusion over Christian teaching on "the after life".

The concept of "Heaven" has become deeply convoluted, confused, and amalgamated into this hodge-podge of ideas that has often left many with the idea that:

"When I die I go to heaven to live there forever with God."

This was never the historic teaching of the Christian faith. It's not the official teaching of any mainstream Christian Church. If you were to look at the various confessional literature of most Protestant denominations you'd find that they all confess the historic Christian belief in the resurrection of the body and eternal life in the age to come.

So let's unravel this whole thing by first stating emphatically that "Heaven" as in "this spiritual place, somewhere up there, where God and the angels dwell is to be our home for all eternity; where we with these ethereal 'bodies' strum harps like angels sing-songing it up forever and ever" is complete and utter garbage. This has never been the teaching of Christianity, you will not find it in the Christian Bible, you will not find it in any of the Christian Creeds, you will not find it in any of the writings of the ancient Church Fathers, or in teachings of Christian theologians throughout the centuries--whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. From St. Paul to St. Thomas Aquinas to Martin Luther to John Wesley and so on there is an emphatic belief that after Christ comes again at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and that God will make a new heavens and a new earth, restoring and renewing this creation where justice and peace will dwell forever and ever.

Now Christianity has taught that when we die we go to be with Christ. The Bible itself doesn't go into any detail whatsoever as to what this means or entails. However that isn't the full story, and Scripture isn't very interested in that part of the story. It's far more interested in resurrection. The locus of all Christian faith is the resurrection, Jesus from from the dead. But that is meaningless in and of itself, it would just be a sort of happy happenstance. But it's front and center in Christian thought precisely because it is the beginning of God's work of renewal, of new creation which is culminated, finalized at Christ's return when the dead are raised and there is the restoration of all things. St. Paul goes so far as to say that "if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen ... our faith is worthless".

Thus this "going to Heaven when we die" idea is really just an expansion upon the idea that between death and resurrection we are with Christ. Whatever that means is largely unspoken and we don't really know anything of it, though it does seem to indicate a living and conscious presence in and with God. It is intermediate, not final.

Now as for the final state, the real deal which Scripture does talk about quite frequently and which we have confessed for two thousand years--the resurrection of the dead and the world to come--we cannot say much about what exactly it will be like. There Scripture only offers us glimpses of this profound reality. St. Paul likens it to us currently seeing through a dim glass or mirror, but then "face to face"; St. John says that "what we will be has not been made known, but when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.". St. Paul contrasts our present bodily existence with that future bodily existence by calling the present body a psuchekos soma (a "soul-powered body") while calling the resurrected body a pneumatikos soma (a "Spirit-powered body"). We receive from the ancient Israelite Prophets a number of visionary depictions, for example Isaiah speaks of wolf and lamb laying together, of children playing near viper dens without fear, and that even the lion will eat straw like the ox.

This isn't harps and choirs on golden streets. This is dirt and soil, life and breath. It is walking, playing, running, doing, living.

I think life is a good thing, and for there to be a time when children and parents can be reunited, friends coming together again, and the whole of humanity, and the whole world, being restored to such a life gathered together in the unity, love and beauty of God; if this be, count me in.

-CryptoLutheran

I may be an atheist, but...

I have read a lot of theology across the centuries across the streams of Christianity and...

ViaCrucis is right.

What is described here *is* the historic, orthodox, mainstream understanding.

Much of modern pop Evangelicalism differs.

The "afterlife" is a relatively modern thing in its popularization:

Google Ngram Viewer

While the "resurrection of the body" is of increasingly less interest:

Google Ngram Viewer

Every Christian here affirms the Credal "resurrection of the body."

Yet I'm not sure what's believed by that by many corresponds much to the beliefs of Jesus of Nazareth, the Apostles, the patristics, etc.
 
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FundiMentalist

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As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".

Another interesting quote of Nietzsche about this is the contemplation of the eternal return.

Nietzsche asks:

What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more' ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: 'You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine.'

Even Immanual Kant encourages to:

Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

Perhaps not unrelated, the Orthodox conceptions of both Heaven and Hell pertain to being in the presence of God. Prior to Dante and prior to the Great Schism, was not this the commonest understanding?

And furthermore, being in the presence of God can't help but remind of the parable of the Sheep and the Goats.

Matthew 25:31-46 NIV - The Sheep and the Goats - “When the - Bible Gateway

Perhaps to Jesus of Nazareth, the Kingdom of God was more about how one treats one's neighbor and even one's enemy.

Should one wonder if [in a historic Christian context] Heaven relates more to how Abraham interacts with the stranger at Mamre than modern Hollywood Platonic conceptions of "going to Heaven" (or Roman Roads or Four Spiritual Laws of 20th century Evangelical evangelism for that matter).
 
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GrayAngel

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I honestly don't get what is so meaningful about Heaven. What motivates you to go there?


  • Is it that you get to be next to Jesus/God? Well, how exactly is that "good"? Sure, it would be cool to talk with the creator of the Universe, but even I would get bored after a while.

This is definitely a big part of it. To meet our greatest source of affection would be the most euphoric experience we could ever have. It's like what happens when a kid sees their father come home from war after years of waiting. They don't just think it's "cool" to see one another again.

Is it that you would be able to get to your friends and family? Even tho this is a more personal topic, my thoughts on this are that if I was able to re-connect to someone from my family who passed away, then everything that person did for me would become meaningless. Sacrifices done for another human being only have meaning if my life or my materials are limited on some way.

I will never understand atheistic rational. You don't want to see a lost loved one because it would make their sacrifice meaningless? How does that work exactly? How many people sacrifice their lives, even with the faith of an afterlife to follow? Most people live as if this were the only life they'd get. It takes a great deal of love and courage to live with an eternal mindset.

Is it that your life will be stretched? Again, if we even remove the boredom factor, we fall into the same problem as above: my life only has meaning if it's limited in some way.
Again, I don't understand your logic. If this is our only life, then when we die, all our memories will be gone, we'd cease to exist completely. If we're all going from points A to B, then what's the point of anything that comes between?

If, on the other hand, there's an afterlife, then everything matters.

I personally don't want to go to Heaven. I don't want to go anywhere. But if I was to chose, I'd chose Hell. Most atheists I know would. As Nietzsche would say "In Heaven all interesting people are missing".

There's not a group I love to be with more than my church friends. They're the most thoughtful, least judgmental, and overall most pleasant people to be around. I could do fine without those "interesting" people.
 
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Johnnz

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But heaven is not our destiny anyway. A renewed earth with renewed bodies living in an open relationship with God is the final scenario given to us in Revelation. The NT saints were never into some kind of cosmic travel to who knows where. This earth is 'home' for humans, now and in also when eternity begins.

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elman

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But heaven is not our destiny anyway. A renewed earth with renewed bodies living in an open relationship with God is the final scenario given to us in Revelation. The NT saints were never into some kind of cosmic travel to who knows where. This earth is 'home' for humans, now and in also when eternity begins.

John
NZ
We are going to have spiritual bodies. 1 Cor 15
 
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Johnnz

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We are going to have spiritual bodies. 1 Cor 15

'Spiritual' means something more like 'designed by God' or 'prepared by God'. It does not mean non physical, which would be Greek not biblical thinking.

John
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elman

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'Spiritual' means something more like 'designed by God' or 'prepared by God'. It does not mean non physical, which would be Greek not biblical thinking.

John
NZ
Spiritual does not mean physical or natural bodies. Paul specifically says we will not have natural bodies. Non physical is very bibical thinking. God is a spirit does not tell you God has a physical body.
 
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elman

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Empathy is centered in understanding another person. One may not necessarily agree with the other, but to have the richest of compassion might just require being able to appreciate things from the neighbor's/enemy's point of view.

The alternative to heaven which is eternal life is to not have eternal life--no existence. Why would you embrace that rather than life?
 
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ViaCrucis

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We are going to have spiritual bodies. 1 Cor 15

Pneumatikos soma is being contrasted to a psuchekos soma.

If Paul wanted to discuss physicality vs spirituality he would have chosen very different language.

If Paul means to say that the resurrection body is an immaterial body composed of "spirit-stuff" then he is saying that the present body is an immaterial body composed of "soul-stuff".

Such is, of course, ridiculous.

The contrast isn't in the composition of the body (σῶμα), but in what gives the body life, what moves or enlivens the body. Soul, our animal breath, now; and then Spirit, God's Divine Breath. "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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