what do you think?

[Jason19]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this part of the forums, but I love Creation Science, and look forward to maybe getting in on some conversations here.
So, I wanted to get a feel for who is out there, so just wondering whay you all think on the following things I believe in:

Man, the earth, and all that is in them were created in 6 days, normal 24 hour like days.

God rested from His work on the seventh, not because He needed too have a break, but because He was finished. He also set the weekly pattern for man.

In that original creation, God said everything was very good, and perfect, no death.

Through Man's direct disobedience death entered the world, corrupting all things, and since then things have been going in a downward trend.

Through sin, man's human desire is to sin, and for since then, evolution has wiggled its way in (as has many others) as a belief that people claim is true even when the evidence is not there, just so that they can not be called on their sin.



Well, these are the basics, I know all you guys gomuch deeper then this, and i would like to also, but like i said, if this post makes it, I would like to get a feel for who is out there, so I can understand what is being talked about.

Thank you all, look forward to hearing from you!

 

[Deamiter]

On the first, I would disagree. The evidence just doesn't support this conclusion though there's no doubt that a "plain" or "literal" reading of Genesis does. I won't get into the details here as this is more of a welcome thread than anything else. Do feel free to start a thread on evidence for (or against) a global flood, or genetic evidence of common descent if you like!

Of all the rest, I entirely agree -- though not in the way you might initially think. The Garden of Eden was metaphorical. Adam is representative of "mankind" as evidenced by the pun in his name. The story of creation IS intended to delineate the work-week, and was probably a strong response to other mythologies (creation stories) where there were many Gods. It gives YHWH the power that was usually split up among many different figures, and indeed demonstrates that the YHWH God is master over all manmade Gods -- something common in that time period.

But again, I don't think this is an appropriate thread for trying to discuss all that. I DO welcome you to the boards though! You'd probably find discussion here much more enjoyable if you pick one or two (if related) small facts, points, or beliefs and start a thread on them specifically. Trying to cover all of creationism vs. theistic evolution in a single thread would be quite impossible!

And feel free to post in the subforums. As a creationist, you can post freely in the creationist subforum, and you can post humble questions in the Theistic Evolution subforum (the kind that don't suggest an answer) in a new thread if you're honestly curious about a particular point. Be careful though, because debate is not allowed in either subforums. They're there to give you a place for partisan discussion.

 

[gluadys]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this part of the forums, but I love Creation Science, and look forward to maybe getting in on some conversations here.

Welcome Jason

As Deamiter says, it is probably a good idea to start separate threads on topics you would like to discuss in detail. Or to join threads already started on that subject. So I'll just supply a few questions you might like to think about.

Man, the earth, and all that is in them were created in 6 days, normal 24 hour like days.

Given this, how do you explain all the evidence that contradicts this?

In that original creation, God said everything was very good, and perfect, no death.

I read "very good" in Genesis. I don't see the word "perfect", nor that there was no death.

Through Man's direct disobedience death entered the world, corrupting all things, and since then things have been going in a downward trend.

I am not convinced there was no death before the fall. You might like to check out this thread in the Creation and Evolution forum, and perhaps add your comments there.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2521369-the-fall-death-decay-the-ecology-of-eden.html

Through sin, man's human desire is to sin, and for since then, evolution has wiggled its way in (as has many others) as a belief that people claim is true even when the evidence is not there, just so that they can not be called on their sin.

Where did you hear this? Looks like somebody has been telling you some fairy tales about evolution.

Well, these are the basics, I know all you guys gomuch deeper then this, and i would like to also, but like i said, if this post makes it, I would like to get a feel for who is out there, so I can understand what is being talked about.

Thank you all, look forward to hearing from you!

Take time to check out some other threads. It will give you a feel for the arguments used both ways. And some idea of things you might want to learn about before trying to comment on them.

 

[Jason19]

Hey thanks guys for the directions and pionting me in the ways I should go, thats what i was hoping for.

I do hope to only discuss creation/evolution.....debating just never works out real great with someone getting mad and all.

I was being very general in my statements above,I hope to find the threads you all suggested for each topic.

Thanks allot guys, yo u have been a big help.

 

[WAB]

Hi Jason19... A "plain" or "literal" reading of Genesis does indeed support (or rather demand) the conclusion that the days mentioned there are meant to be of the 24 hr. (approx.) variety.

Here is what some "experts" in the Hebrew language have to say on the matter....
"So far as I know, there is no Professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer of Gen.1:1-11:32 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience, (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story, (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world wide and extinguished all human and animal life except for those in the ark." Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew, at Oxford University).

Note that the experts are not saying they BELIEVE the account; they are just dealing honestly with what the Scriptures actually say with the realities of the language.

Also, when our Lord was speaking to non-believing Jews in John chap. 5, He said: "...you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." (vs.40) and... "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (vs.46,47 all from the NKJV).

If one thinks that the Genesis account is mythological or metaphorical or other than literal, then in that case one cannot take the plain words of Jesus as truth. But He never lied or misled anyone, and He is the Way, and the Truth and the Life... and nobody enters into the presence of Almighty God except through Him!

 

[Deamiter]

Also, when our Lord was speaking to non-believing Jews in John chap. 5, He said: "...you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." (vs.40) and... "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (vs.46,47 all from the NKJV).

If one thinks that the Genesis account is mythological or metaphorical or other than literal, then in that case one cannot take the plain words of Jesus as truth. But He never lied or misled anyone, and He is the Way, and the Truth and the Life... and nobody enters into the presence of Almighty God except through Him!

Interestingly enough, just in the past week, I've heard people refer to fictional or metaphorical stories no fewer than ten times! It's not at all uncommon for people to refer to the "boy who cried wolf" as if he were real. Indeed, among my Christian friends who accept evolution, we'll routinely discuss Adam and Eve and what that story has to teach us about sin. Though we too believe what Moses wrote as Christians, we don't at ALL see it as a literal historical text!

I've found that whenever Jesus refers to these texts, he's making a point that was first made in the Mosaic texts long before he came to Earth. He's always using the allegorical meaning, and claiming that the Genesis account holds truth based on this meaning. Yes, he COULD have thought that these accounts were historical, but Jesus' references to the OT writings are really fully compatable with an allegorical mythology. Just as Jesus refered to Adam and Eve to discuss sin in the world, I have no problem refering to Neo (in the Matrix) when talking about faith.

 

[FreezBee]

Hi Jason19 and welcome to this forum

Here is what some "experts" in the Hebrew language have to say on the matter....
"So far as I know, there is no Professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer of Gen.1:1-11:32 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience, (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story, (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world wide and extinguished all human and animal life except for those in the ark." Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew, at Oxford University).

Occasionally claims, that the days are not meant to be literal days of 24 hours, are based on evidence for "yom" being used in a very loose sense. But it is here worth adding that while it is true that "yom" can refer to other time-perionds, it never does that when combined with an ordinal number - such as the first day, the second day, and so on. In these cases a literal 24 hour days is always meant.

Also, when our Lord was speaking to non-believing Jews in John chap. 5, He said: "...you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." (vs.40) and... "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (vs.46,47 all from the NKJV).

If one thinks that the Genesis account is mythological or metaphorical or other than literal, then in that case one cannot take the plain words of Jesus as truth. But He never lied or misled anyone, and He is the Way, and the Truth and the Life... and nobody enters into the presence of Almighty God except through Him!

John is referring to the prophetic passages in the Torah, not necessarily to the Torah as such - and even if he did, then the creation story would have to be a story about the earthly life of Jesus! How's that for size?


- FreezBee

 

[tamtam92]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this part of the forums, but I love Creation Science, and look forward to maybe getting in on some conversations here.
So, I wanted to get a feel for who is out there, so just wondering whay you all think on the following things I believe in:

Man, the earth, and all that is in them were created in 6 days, normal 24 hour like days.

God rested from His work on the seventh, not because He needed too have a break, but because He was finished. He also set the weekly pattern for man.

In that original creation, God said everything was very good, and perfect, no death.

Through Man's direct disobedience death entered the world, corrupting all things, and since then things have been going in a downward trend.

Through sin, man's human desire is to sin, and for since then, evolution has wiggled its way in (as has many others) as a belief that people claim is true even when the evidence is not there, just so that they can not be called on their sin.



Well, these are the basics, I know all you guys gomuch deeper then this, and i would like to also, but like i said, if this post makes it, I would like to get a feel for who is out there, so I can understand what is being talked about.

Thank you all, look forward to hearing from you!

I'm new to this subforum too

 

[disciple777]

On the first, I would disagree. The evidence just doesn't support this conclusion though there's no doubt that a "plain" or "literal" reading of Genesis does. I won't get into the details here as this is more of a welcome thread than anything else. Do feel free to start a thread on evidence for (or against) a global flood, or genetic evidence of common descent if you like!

Of all the rest, I entirely agree -- though not in the way you might initially think. The Garden of Eden was metaphorical. Adam is representative of "mankind" as evidenced by the pun in his name. The story of creation IS intended to delineate the work-week, and was probably a strong response to other mythologies (creation stories) where there were many Gods. It gives YHWH the power that was usually split up among many different figures, and indeed demonstrates that the YHWH God is master over all manmade Gods -- something common in that time period.

But again, I don't think this is an appropriate thread for trying to discuss all that. I DO welcome you to the boards though! You'd probably find discussion here much more enjoyable if you pick one or two (if related) small facts, points, or beliefs and start a thread on them specifically. Trying to cover all of creationism vs. theistic evolution in a single thread would be quite impossible!

And feel free to post in the subforums. As a creationist, you can post freely in the creationist subforum, and you can post humble questions in the Theistic Evolution subforum (the kind that don't suggest an answer) in a new thread if you're honestly curious about a particular point. Be careful though, because debate is not allowed in either subforums. They're there to give you a place for partisan discussion.

EVIDENCE FOR THE UNIVERSAL FLOOD:

The Tamil Language is as old as Greek and Hebrew. According to the history of literature, there was one piece of land extending from South Africa to Philippines as far down to South Pole. The language was Tamil. It was a Golden age of the civilization. Then, came a flood which altered the entire geography of the world. This happened around 5000 years ago. What could this be? This is described as Noah's flood in Genesis. NOt only this, but the historical evidence for a universal flood is also recorded in every civilization. These are outside the Bible.

 

[WAB]

FreezBee.... You say: "John is referring to the prophetic passages in the Torah, not necessarily to the Torah as such - and even if he did, then the creation story would have to be a story about the earthly life of Jesus! How's that for size?"

Afraid it doesn't fit at all. #1... It is not John that is making the reference, but Jesus.
#2... Do you think that Jesus would endorse part of the writings of Moses, but not the entire account?
#3... Jesus is... "...the way, the truth, and the life..." Do you think He would ever lie or deceive?
#4... The creation account (not "story") is precisely that; the account of the creation. You might not want to admit that for fear of ridicule by old-earthers, but it is true nevertheless.
#5... If we cannot accept the straightforward account of creation presented in the book of Genesis, which Jesus endorsed, then the rest of Scripture is brought into question. Even the parts we happen to like. Suggest you read the quote from Prof. Barr again.

 

[gluadys]

#5... If we cannot accept the straightforward account of creation presented in the book of Genesis, which Jesus endorsed, then the rest of Scripture is brought into question. Even the parts we happen to like. Suggest you read the quote from Prof. Barr again.

Are you saying that Jesus cannot endorse truth presented in a mythical account? Why not?

 

[tamtam92]

By definition myth is not truth. Why would God have deceived all men until Darwin supposedly showed the truth?

 

[WAB]

Are you saying that Jesus cannot endorse truth presented in a mythical account? Why not?

No, I am not saying He couldn't, just that He didn't. Also, it might help clarify things a bit to present the definition of mythology. Here it is...

"MYTHOLOGY, n. [Gr. a fable, and discourse.] A system of fables or fabulous opinions and doctrines respecting the deities which heathen nations have supposed to preside over the world or to influence the affairs of it." (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

Webster's ninth New Collegiate Dictionary says of "mythical"... ":existing only in the imagination: FICTITIOUS, IMAGINARY..." (upper case in orig.).

Do you actually think Jesus endorsed fables respecting heathen deities? Or fictitious, imaginary concepts?

 

[gluadys]

No, I am not saying He couldn't, just that He didn't. Also, it might help clarify things a bit to present the definition of mythology. Here it is...

You need a better dictionary.

Here are some more comprehensive definitions of "myth".

myth (mth)
n.
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" Leon Wolff.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/myth

When we speak of myth in the bible, definitions 1 & 2 apply, not definition 3 or 4.

Myths are tales or traditions that seek to explain:
1. the place of humans in the universe and their origin
2. the nature of society
3. the relationship between the individual and the world
4. the meaning of natural phenomena especially individual events (no attempt to fit into a system of general laws)

Myths coincided originally with nature knowledge transmitted by story telling in an oral tradition.
Mythos literally means the telling [of the story].

Encylopedia (Encarta) definition of myth.

Biblical myths have all of these characteristics. None of them imply falsehood.

Main Entry: myth
Pronunciation: 'mith
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek mythos
1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : PARABLE, ALLEGORY
2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism -- Orde Coombs> b : an unfounded or false notion
3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4 : the whole body of myths

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Note that only definition 2b suggests "false notion". 1a is most applicable to biblical myths.

Definitions of Myth
Before defining the term "mythology" one needs to define the meaning of the word "myth". The word itself comes from the Greek "mythos" which originally meant "speech" or "discourse" but which later came to mean "fable" or "legend". In this document the word "myth" will be defined as a story of forgotten or vague origin, basically religious or supernatural in nature, which seeks to explain or rationalize one or more aspects of the world or a society.
Furthermore, in the context of this document, all myths are, at some stage, actually believed to be true by the peoples of the societies that used or originated the myth. Our definition is thus clearly distinguished from the use of the word myth in everyday speech which basically refers to any unreal or imaginary story.
A myth is also distinctly different from an allegory or parable which is a story deliberately made up to illustrate some moral point but which has never been assumed to be true by anyone.

Some myths describe some actual historical event, but have been embellished and refashioned by various story tellers over time so that it is impossible to tell what really happened. In this last aspect myths have a legendary and historical nature.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/mythology.html

Emphasis added.

 

[Jason19]

Wow! Such good discussions, thanks everyone! I am so excited now to keep on reading and maybe posting in these origins/creation threads. I have to say though, logicly, all those who posted with the stand that the Bible is truth and not a myth, you guys have much better support for your claims, others are built on personal assumptions. Keep up the good discussion guys!

 

[WAB]

By definition myth is not truth. Why would God have deceived all men until Darwin supposedly showed the truth?

PRECISELY!