What do you think of this site?

[AnnieG]

www[dot]olrl[dot]org

I've known this site since my high-school years, and it's the place where I learned many prayers and devotions in English.
However, although they aren't sedivacantists, I feel they are too traditional for my taste, or let's say, my conscience.
What do you think?

 

[QuantaCura]

Sadly, it is often the so-called traditionalist sites that have all the good devotions. Even more sadly, spending too much time with sites like that is more likely to destroy one's faith than help it. One will either go off the fundamentalist deep end or simply join another church or eccelesial community.

The problem is that they have a very narrow, limited and, skewed view of Tradition. They can splice little quotes here and there to make it look like recent popes and Vatican II teach error. Of course, they never put what they splice in context and they never show you the things from before Vatican II that coincide with what it and recent popes say. As someone who used to be quite partial to the traditionalist position, let's just say I was a bit surprised when I actually studied first hand and unedited the Councils and writings of the popes in their proper context.

I am currently working on refuting various traditionalist allegations and objections (NewMan99 is working on one for me). I won't be done for awhile but when it is complete I will post it on OBOB.

 

[AnnieG]

Thank you for your reply, quanta cura.
Good devotions is a good thing, but dividing the Church is bad, IMHO. Of course the "old Mass" is beautiful, nobody can deny this, but you can get lots of graces from a NOM Mass, too. It is neither a blasphemy, nor is Christ absent. Of course, there are abuses which are widely known, but they do not take place in every church, and if it is really an abuse, it is clear that it wasn't meant this way by the Council.
To me, it is weird to accept all Councils except one.
I'm looking forward to your explanations.

 

[QuantaCura]

Sadly, with almost every ecumenical council in history, there has been a group that didn't like it and have gone off to do their own thing. Likewise, the Church has had a variety of liturgies in her history--even to this day there are different ones in different rites. Certain ancient rites have been supressed over time as well as rites that were particular to various orders. Jesus just gave us the central part, it has been the Church's job to fill in the rest. Some forms of the liturgy are no doubt more beautiful than others. Personally, of all the different ones I have witnessed, I find the Tridentine Mass to be the most beautiful--that being said, the sublime transcendence of entering into the Holy of Holies and participating in the offering of the heavenly Sacrifice is present in all of them--and when one realizes this, the other differences are insignificant.

The abuses are sad, there were abuses throughout history. Have you ever heard of the Mass of Asses or the Mass of Fools that took place in the middle ages? Yikes! They make the abuses of today look tame.

Oh, as an aside, have you ever read this? It is a vision a woman had where Mary walked her through the Mass (it was the new rite). It is amazing!! You'll receive such a greater appreciation of any Mass, I promise you

http://www.greatcrusade.org/greatcrusade/Mass/Holy_Mass-Web.htm

 

[AnnieG]

No, I haven't heard of Catalina yet. Nor do I know what the Mass of the Fools or the Asses is. Does it involve donkeys, stupid people or posteriors?
As for the Tridentine Mass, I know the Mass as it is celebrated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64
Unfortunetely, the video is not very good quality, but it explains a lot to those people who do not know what we are talking about.
I think we also have a missal with the changes made by John XXIII in our vestry. And of course, we have the NOM in latin. I have participated in such masses with Gregorian chant as well as in at least one low mass. During Lent, one of our priests celebrated with his back to the people (I cannot say facing the tabernacle because it is in a chapel) -- for practical reasons. The altar picture was covered by a cloth he would defile otherwise when genuflecting.
And BOTH seemed to annoy most of the people. And I'm not talking about young people here. It was the elderly who complained. One lady said that she would appreciate a mass where the sung parts are in latin, but not all latin.
I think, if more people go to church when it is celebrated in the vernacular, facing the people, then it is better this way.

 

[QuantaCura]

Yes, I go to a very large Cathedral and we have four Masses on Sunday--the first three are Novus Ordo and they pack the Cathedral. The fourth is Tridentine and we barely fill the small chapel--and some people come from hours away. Sadly, I don't think there is a huge demand. Personally, as long as the Sacrifice is being offered and people are receiveing Jesus, I am content

 

[chilehed]

I see a HUGE problem with the bits about "the evils of the new liturgy", the claim that it violates Tradition, the insinuations that the new liturgy is heretical and deprives the world of the Mass, and all of that nonsense.

I find it offensive that this garbage is passed off as "traditionalist" - it isn't "traditional" at all, it's... well, I don't know WHAT to call it, but none of the things that come to mind are good.

"Traditional" reminds me of the words of Ignatius of Antioch:

"It is necessary, therefore, -and such is your practice, -that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ our hope...In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and the college of Apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church...anyone who acts without the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clean conscience....For Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the will of the Father, just as the Bishops, who have been appointed throughout the world, are the will of Jesus Christ. It is fitting, therefore, that you should live in harmony with the will of the Bishop - as indeed you do...Let us be careful, then, if we would be submissive to God, not to oppose the Bishop..."​