What do parallel universes mean for Christians

[Hieronymus]

Physicists often claim that there are multiverses or parallel universes.

Hmmm.... They're models they seem to like sometimes.
I don't think there are many who claim it is a fact.

Naturalism needs it sometimes, so that there is more chance of accidental (purposeless) coincidences that might perhaps result in things like formation of planets for example.

 

[Smidlee]

Black holes are certainly not beyond human reasoning; we can observe them.

We can observe a star's orbit but no one observed black holes. Look how wrong they were about Pluto and that is in our backyard. Scientist admits that black holes break every known laws of physics (supernatural by definition) which makes it something beyond human understanding.

 

[Wgw]

We can observe a star's orbit but no one observed black holes?

Not true; many have been observed. We can't observe the singularity, but we can infer what it is based on the way in which the black hole interacts with the environment. We could, I suppose, observe a singularity if we dared cross the event horizon, furthermore, although this would be a one way trip.

Look how wrong they were about Pluto and that is in our backyard.

How were they "wrong about Pluto"?

Scientist admits that black holes break every known laws of physics (supernatural by definition) which makes it something beyond human understanding.

Black holes do not break the "laws of physics." They are naturally occurring and in no sense supernatural.

 

[Smidlee]

Not true; many have been observed. We can't observe the singularity, but we can infer what it is based on the way in which the black hole interacts with the environment. We could, I suppose, observe a singularity if we dared cross the event horizon, furthermore, although this would be a one way trip.

How were they "wrong about Pluto"?

Black holes do not break the "laws of physics." They are naturally occurring and in no sense supernatural.

This is not what the scientist claim. My son loves black holes and I heard the scientist themselves claim that black holes break every known laws of physics. I did some reading black holes for him and learned they haven't exactly observed a black hole. In fact last year they thought they would observed for the first time a gas cloud getting spaghettified as it passed by a massive black hole in the center of our galaxy but nothing happen. It went by like it's wasn't there.
By the way, they did try explain it away... they thought it must have been binary stars instead of a gas cloud. They can't even tell the difference between a gas cloud from a binary star at that distance.


What scientist observe as a black hole is in their computer models but those models only know what man puts in them. Those models are based on a lot of assumptions. This is where that got the idea of dark matter and dark energy. These are fudge factors needed to make their computer models work.

How were they "wrong about Pluto?"

You didn't pay attention to the news last year? They even thought it would be blue but it was red like Mars.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Physicists often claim that there are multiverses or parallel universes. Some claim that there are an unimaginably large number of these universes (or even an infinite number).

I'm interested in how Christians should approach the idea of other universes. The idea seems completely incompatible with Christianity.

With awe and wonder hopefully!

 

[BobRyan]

This is in fact unrelated to the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, which resolves Shroedinger's Cat by saying after decoherence, you have two universes or realities: one in which the cat is alive, and one in which the cat is dead. Thus you get a world for each possible outcome of a quantum event.

Since there were no events before the Big Bang, there would have been only one world pertinent to the monobloc. After the Big Bang, one would see a geometric increase i the number of universes proportionate to the number of quantum events, which aligns neatly with the idea of entropy.

I am not greatly interested in adapting Christianity to give a mystica interpretation to this hypothesis, in that it itself is probably not falsifiable, in that communication between parallel worlds created in this manner is apparently impossible.

Quantum entanglement does not lead to alternate worlds where macro events are all the same "except for one". Creating an entire world for each such "alternate" event. Shroedinger did not believe such a thing either. He was strictly limiting his illustration for what he felt was the flaw in quantum superpositions,

The "many worlds" interpretation, which is a popular alternative to, for example, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, says otherwise. However at present we lack an epistemological basis for knowing, one way or the other. This thread however seems predicated on the basis of the sort of speculation that "many worlds" enables.

Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics does not deal with macro objects like solar systems and planets. It only applies to the quantum level. (and in certain contrived experiments to tiny macro level objects like diamonds)

Still if you could get objects in quantum entanglement to form into molecules that are used to build entire systems from paired devices. You could in theory have a camera recording video in one area of the universe where the video is seen "instantly" in some other part as the "paired camera" would behave as if it were watching the event in real time. That is the sort of modeling at the macro level for the entanglement problem - of action at a distance. But alternate universes is not where it goes.

 

[Wgw]

The "many worlds" interpretation is one of several "interpretations" of quantum mechanics; I am not defending it, I do not personally believe in it, but contrary to what @BobRyan says, it is a widely held view among people in the field.

 

[BobRyan]

it may be their "belief" -- but it is not science to "imagine" that entire planets are created by events on earth - having the exact same conditions on earth - save for one event-outcome in variance. That is "belief" system. Shroedinger did not "believe in it" he simply "imagined it" to demonstrate the absurdity on the macro level -- as an argument against what was observed at the quantum level. But that did not turn his "illustration" into its own "scientific observation of cats or planets or other worlds".

Details matter.

 

[Radrook]

The parallel worlds idea where every possibility is reflected in an alternate history does pose problems for Christians since accepting it would require them to believe that in some alternate reality Jesus never came to Earth was never sacrificed or succumbed to Satanic temptation when offered the kingdoms of the Earth for an act of worship..

 

[dms1972]

What scientist observe as a black hole is in their computer models but those models only know what man puts in them.

On the subject of black holes it needs to be remembered that collapsing stars may also evaporate (giving off radiation) before they become black holes (as suggested by Hawking radiation)

 

[mindlight]

Physicists often claim that there are multiverses or parallel universes. Some claim that there are an unimaginably large number of these universes (or even an infinite number).

I'm interested in how Christians should approach the idea of other universes. The idea seems completely incompatible with Christianity.

Guess it depends what you mean by parallel universes. I think there are strange things about our universe which we will have trouble explaining, there are massive mysteries to do with dark matter and energy, possible connections may exist between one part of the universe and the other (wormtunnels). If we step through a doorway to a sort of Narnian alternate reality then are we actually just in another part of our own universe or in another universe completely. Would anyone ever really know. In the Bible Phillip after talking with the Ethiopian seems to have been whisked away instantly to another place by the Spirit. The how is not described of course.

But as to the idea of alternate planes of reality this was a religious perspective on reality before it was a scientific one. Where did Enoch and Elijah go when God took them away to be with him and to where did Jesus ascend and from where will he return. Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they met Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Anyone who believes in the heavens (not just the stars), in hell, in hades and in the abyss believes that there are alternate planes of reality inhabited by creatures sometimes very unlike ourselves.

I am pretty sure that the topography of heaven will be quite alien to most of us at first. Johns mind tried to express some insights in his book of Revelation. It would take a seer or a poet to describe the place I think more than a scientist.

 

[Decrypted]

The Universe was made of him by his words, and all life from his breath (Psalm 33:6). That from the Speaking of God all things were made (Hebrews 11:3). That nothing exists that was not made by his word (John 1:3). Therefore its important to realize that since everything was made by him, that he also IS everything that exists. The Universe IS the word otherwise something other then the word would have been used to make it. The Word IS God (John 1:1). God's name "Is which Is" (Exodus 3:14). Since the Universe Is the Word, and the Word Is God, the Universe also Is part of God (Part since what Is only represents the past and the present). There is only one God (Mark 12:29). And that God IS the Past, Present, and Future (Revelation 1:8).

The Name of the Lord that gets translated as Lord in Hebrew is (יהוה) The Prefix (י) means "he will" and the root word
(הוה) means "Be" the future tense of the word "Is". Using the prefix (א) meaning "I will" means that (אהוה) as used in (Exodus 3:14) in the most strict of translating means "I will be" yet gets translated as "I am" meaning the present tense. Pushing the present tense with this prefix means "I is".
Taking this pronunciation to Greek we get "Ies" when Greek words have two syllables they use a contraction declension using the need O stem since the man was a male gives the declension "ous". Together this makes Iesous. Then In the 1800's the I became the letter J. Making the Word Jesous. Then when translating to English they dropped the o making the name "Jesus".

Since ex(sin)-IS-tence includes "All" (Allah) also works as his name. Since this gets pointed out that does not mean assumptions should BE(LORD) made about what I BE-lieve. Since God IS one, we have one universe.

Existence does indeed exist, and his name Existence does have Laws the we know as the Laws of Physics that are perfect. Specifically the Laws of Motion (אל) translated as "unto", "against", and "God".

Indeed Motion did make the Universe, even the big bang theory has to admit that. And that "All Power comes through Motion", and that Motion never breaks his own laws.

 

[daleksteve]

Physicists often claim that there are multiverses or parallel universes. Some claim that there are an unimaginably large number of these universes (or even an infinite number).

I'm interested in how Christians should approach the idea of other universes. The idea seems completely incompatible with Christianity.

Is the idea so incompatible with Christianity the God we worship EXISTS outside the physical universe.

I don't subscribe to multiverses or parallel universes, universe theory myself but this creator God of ours like i said exists outside that physical universe. This suggests there is some sort of other dimension or maybe even more than one beyond our Physical universe.

I

 

[daleksteve]

Guess it depends what you mean by parallel universes. I think there are strange things about our universe which we will have trouble explaining, there are massive mysteries to do with dark matter and energy, possible connections may exist between one part of the universe and the other (wormtunnels). If we step through a doorway to a sort of Narnian alternate reality then are we actually just in another part of our own universe or in another universe completely. Would anyone ever really know. In the Bible Phillip after talking with the Ethiopian seems to have been whisked away instantly to another place by the Spirit. The how is not described of course.

But as to the idea of alternate planes of reality this was a religious perspective on reality before it was a scientific one. Where did Enoch and Elijah go when God took them away to be with him and to where did Jesus ascend and from where will he return. Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they met Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. Anyone who believes in the heavens (not just the stars), in hell, in hades and in the abyss believes that there are alternate planes of reality inhabited by creatures sometimes very unlike ourselves.

I am pretty sure that the topography of heaven will be quite alien to most of us at first. Johns mind tried to express some insights in his book of Revelation. It would take a seer or a poet to describe the place I think more than a scientist.

I look at it like this. If a supreme being that exists OUTSIDE our physical universe created our universe then all bets are off the table regarding multi universes etc. Where Did God come from, what exactly is heaven.

Although i don't subscribe to the multi-universe theory you cannot get away from that theology and religion dips its toes into such matters at times.

 

[dms1972]

The only sense I accept the term 'multiverse' is in the sense of there being other galaxies making up the created universe. In a sense it might be said to be a 'multiverse', if we think of the solar system of which we still know only a little, things like the size of planets, a bit about the atmosphere content, likely surface temperatures. It used to be thought we were located in a backwater of the western spiral arm of the Milky Way. But now it seems we are not in a 'backwater' but on a branch of the Persius arm.

Other galaxies further away than the Milky Way are so far removed from us that all the galaxies considered together could be a kind of 'multiverse', while the universal constant of the speed of light would be the same in them all. As that is only a manner of speaking and is not saying anything new, we don't need the term 'multiverse' in that sense, we have the term universe which allows for the variety of galaxies and stellar objects astronomers know of.

But no I don't think other space-time universes outside ours actually exist, or that we need to say that God could have created them till we know for sure that they do. Of course He created them if they actually exist.

When Jesus said to his disciples that in His Father's 'house' (ecos) there are many mansions and that he went to prepare a place - what was he speaking of? CS Lewis said Jesus of Nazareth never spoke "vague idealistic gas" and that seems clear to me from the Apostolic testimonies. But speaking of a place prepared for the faithful after this life is over, need not be vague or idealistic, or cloudlike either.

 

[dms1972]

We can observe a star's orbit but no one observed black holes. Look how wrong they were about Pluto and that is in our backyard. Scientist admits that black holes break every known laws of physics (supernatural by definition) which makes it something beyond human understanding.

Maybe I misunderstanding what you are saying. I agree until you say "supernatural by definition" if you mean that breaking all the laws of physics means something is supernatural. Or do you mean the laws of physics are supernatural?

 

[BobRyan]

The parallel worlds idea where every possibility is reflected in an alternate history does pose problems for Christians

Poses problems for "real life" since it is pure fiction.

Your point that Christians would object to fiction - noted.

 

[Grafted In]

We have an infinate God. We are in an infinate universe. I also believe our universe is infinate in scale. Atoms look very much like solar systems. I believe that atoms are made up of yet another scale, made up of even smaller "solar systems" and so on infinately. The same is true, I believe, that the solar systems as our sun and planets make up yet another level of size infinately. And I see no reason that is not compatable with my faith. In fact, it seems to point to an infinate universe made up of infinate levels of scale as I metioned before.
We simply do not know, but we are learning in tiny steps that "out there" is far greater than our finite minds can imagine. I don't understand why but I have believed that since I was a small boy.

 

[dms1972]

Its the merely natural knowledge of God that apart from His Grace leads to eventually to idolatry.

The universe is finite, it had a beginning, it is a creation, early science accepted that and despite a few alternative non-standard cosmologies, the discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation as a relic of the earliest epoch in creation, and that a static universe is impossible under the theory of general relativity has meant such theories are now largely abandoned. To say God is infinite and so is the universe does not make sense.

The universe is certainly greater than any human imagination can conceive of but that doesn't mean that it is infinite.

 

[Grafted In]

Its the merely natural knowledge of God that apart from His Grace leads to eventually to idolatry.

The universe is finite, it had a beginning, it is a creation, early science accepted that and despite a few alternative non-standard cosmologies, the discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation as a relic of the earliest epoch in creation, and that a static universe is impossible under the theory of general relativity has meant such theories are now largely abandoned. To say God is infinite and so is the universe does not make sense.

The universe is certainly greater than anyone's imagination can conceive of but that doesn't mean that it is infinite.

Nor does that mean it isn't.
I try to be fair and honest about such things, particularly when my ideas are contraveseral.
Lets be honest with one another and admit that we do not know.