What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

Greg Merrill

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Sure, but you can accept those things without being dispensationalist. The main contention happens when we shift from the age of the apostles to our current age. I forget the proper terms for them. Most dispensationalists/baptists believe that when the apostles basically died, or most notably, 'when that which is perfect comes' IE the Bible, these things will pass away. See 1 Cor 13:8-11. Pentecostals hold 'that which is perfect' to be Christ either at the rapture, or his second coming when he sets foot upon this rock to set up his earthly kingdom.

If you go through the A/G's theology it will show them to be just a hair shy of being dispensationalist.

I agree that tongues have ceased with the understanding that 1Co 13:10 "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" is referring to the completion of the written Word of God, not to Jesus in any way.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Although I am not a secessionist, I must admit on an emotional level, Speaking in tongues makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

Sounds like you are in tune with the Holy Spirit enough to feel uncomfortable.
 
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OzSpen

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I agree that tongues have ceased with the understanding that 1Co 13:10 "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" is referring to the completion of the written Word of God, not to Jesus in any way.

Greg,

I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture.

In context, it makes better sense to see the gifts as ceasing when we are ‘face to face’ with God himself (v. 12).

I find that perfection = completion of Scripture to be an imposition on the text. It's a standard view of cessationists, but is not what I find in the text.

Therefore, the gift of tongues will continue as long as the gift of teachers, helps and administration continues - as well as apostles, prophets, etc (1 Cor 12:28-32), and that will be until Jesus returns.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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[Staff edit].

Don't forget what Paul exhorted the Corinthians, 'I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you' (1 Cor 14:18 ESV).

Even though the Corinthians were out of order in their practice of tongues speaking in the church gathering (see 1 Cor 12-14), Paul corrected them and gave teaching on law and order when tongues is practised. Interpretation is required for tongues in the public gathering.

However, Paul affirmed his own practice of the gift of tongues and he exhorted all of us, 'Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy' (1 Cor 14:1 ESV).

Would Jesus contradict Paul's authoritative Scripture?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Huh? That's defeats the purpose. Tongues were to reach those of another known language. Unknown tongues were only unknown to the person using them and that happened during the Apostolic period.

JM,

Yes, on the Day of Pentecost, the purpose of tongues was more to reach those of another known tongue, but it also had another purpose in fulfilling Joel's prophecy (Acts 2:16-21).

There's another purpose of tongues that you seem to be missing in 1 Cor 14:2 (ESV): 'For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit'. The NLT translates this verse as: 'For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious'.

When God gives the gift of tongues to a Christian and it is not in the public gathering, that person is not speaking to people but to God, uttering mysteries in the Spirit.

You may not understand this, but I do.

Blessings,
Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Although I am not a secessionist, I must admit on an emotional level, Speaking in tongues makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

Josh,

May I suggest that you consider the gift of tongues as God-given and that when it is used in private, it has this purpose: 'For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God' (1 Cor 14:2 NLT).

Also remember what 1 Cor 14:4-5 (ESV) teaches, 'The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself [which Paul considers legitimate], but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy'.

There is the need for tongues in the congregation to be accompanied by the gift of interpretation so that there will be 'revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching' for the church (1 Cor 14:6 ESV).

This is Paul's exhortation: 'I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy'.

Oz
 
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Greg Merrill

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Greg,

I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture.

In context, it makes better sense to see the gifts as ceasing when we are ‘face to face’ with God himself (v. 12).

I find that perfection = completion of Scripture to be an imposition on the text. It's a standard view of cessationists, but is not what I find in the text.

Therefore, the gift of tongues will continue as long as the gift of teachers, helps and administration continues - as well as apostles, prophets, etc (1 Cor 12:28-32), and that will be until Jesus returns.

Oz
Oz, you say "I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10)"
"But when that which is perfect ("complete" as in the written scriptures) than that which is in part (gifts like speaking in tongues) shall be done away. V. 9 says "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease:..."
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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I agree that tongues have ceased with the understanding that 1Co 13:10 "when that which is perfect (complete) is come" is referring to the completion of the written Word of God, not to Jesus in any way.

That which is perfect is Jesus. There can be no other possible meaning to that one.
 
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Greg Merrill

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That which is perfect is Jesus. There can be no other possible meaning to that one.

Psa 19:7 says "The law of the LORD is perfect,..." The completion of the written scriptures, or just "the written scriptures" would be synonymous with that law of the LORD which is perfect, and not the Lord Jesus Christ, who is also perfect, as is the Holy Spirit, and God the Father.
 
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GingerBeer

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Hi everyone. I am just curious as to what Baptists believe about speaking in tongues. I was raised Southern Baptist but I don't remember this issue ever coming up in church. I am slowly beginning to do research about various denominations because I am considering possibly going back to church again. Anyway, if you could, please identify which specific Baptist denomination you are in. I'll appreciate your answers. :)

God Bless,
Holly
Looks like you did go back to church again. Why did you choose to be a Catholic? I'm interested to know. You wrote the original post in 2004, 13 years ago. A lot happens in 14 years.
 
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DeaconDean

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Here I want to quote an essay:

"When is that time?

One respected tradition says that the coming of perfection or completeness refers to the coming of the day when Scripture is complete, that is, when the last inspired writings are gathered into the Bible and the canon of Scripture is closed. Let me quote from one of these writers whom I highly respect:

When Scripture is completed, then the church will have revelation thoroughly suited to her condition on earth. Our completed Bible is perfect in the sense that it is utterly sufficient revelation for all our needs. Paul is saying, "When the sufficient comes, the inadequate and partial will be done away. Tongues will vanish away, knowledge [and prophecies] will cease at the time that the New Testament is finished."

So when verse 10 says, "When the perfect comes," they say it means, "When the perfect New Testament comes." Is that what Paul means by perfect?

The other view says that the coming of the perfect refers to the experience of perfection at the return of Christ.

So you see what is at stake in these two interpretations. If the coming of the perfect in verse 10 refers to the finishing of the New Testament, then the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all passed away because that time came 1900 years ago. But if the coming of the perfect in verse 10 refers to the second coming of Christ then the natural understanding of the text is that the gifts will continue until Jesus comes.

Let's test these two suggestions by the rest of the passage.

In the next verse (11) Paul says, "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways." Paul compares the experience of partial prophecy and knowledge to the experience of childhood, and he compares the passing away of these gifts to the experience of adulthood. That comparison doesn't seem to decide the issue for us.

Let's go to the next verse. Verse 12: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." Now this is really helpful in making our decision! Here in verse 12 Paul is describing what verse 10 refers to, namely, "when the perfect comes."

I want to make sure that you see this. Notice the contrast in verses 9 and 10 between "our knowledge is imperfect" (v. 9) and "when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away" (v. 10). Then drop down to verse 12 and notice the same contrast in the second part of the verse: "Now I know in part" contrasts with "then I shall understand fully." So verse 12 is clearly describing the coming of "the perfect" referred to in verse 10.

Now does the description of the coming of the perfect in verse 12 fit with the second coming or with the completing of the New Testament?

Let's take the two halves of the verse one at a time. First it says, "Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face." Is it more likely that Paul is saying, "Now before the New Testament is written we see in a mirror dimly, but then when the New Testament is written we shall see face to face"? Or is it more likely that he is saying, "Now in this age we see in a mirror dimly, but then when the Lord returns we shall see face to face"? In the Old Testament there are half a dozen references to seeing God "face to face". Revelation 22:4 says that in heaven we shall see God's face. 1 John 3:2 says that when Jesus appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

My conclusion is that the contrast between seeing fuzzily in an old mirror made out of metal and seeing face to face is not a contrast between first century spiritual knowledge and the knowledge we have from the New Testament today, but rather it's a contrast between the imperfect knowledge we have today in this age and the awesome personal knowledge of God we will have when the Lord returns.

The second half of verse 12 points in the same direction. It says, "Now I know in part (the very same words used at the beginning of verse 9); then I shall be understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." Now is this a contrast between before and after the New Testament or before and after the second coming?

It's hard for me to imagine Paul or any of us saying that after the New Testament was written we now in this age understand fully, even as we have been fully understood. This surely refers to knowing in some sense the way God knows us not omniscience; it doesn't say we will know everything. But we will "be freed from the misconceptions and inabilities to understand (especially to understand God and his work) which are part of this present life . . . [Our knowledge] will contain no false impressions and will not be limited to what is able to be perceived in this age."

So my conclusion on this question is this: Paul is saying that prophecies will pass away not when the New Testament is completed but when this age is completed at the second coming of the Lord from heaven. That's when "the perfect comes" (v. 10). That's when all speaking and thinking and reasoning like a child will be put away (v. 11). That's when we will see "face to face" (v. 12a). That's when we will "know fully even as we have been fully known" (v. 12b)."

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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Oz, you say "I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease ‘when perfection comes’ (v. 10)"

Greg,

That is not what I stated. You have created a straw man. This is the full statement of what I stated: 'I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease "when perfection comes" (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture' (#432).

Now you continue to push your eisegesis on the text with your statement:

"But when that which is perfect ("complete" as in the written scriptures) than that which is in part (gifts like speaking in tongues) shall be done away. V. 9 says "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease:..."

There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to the written Scriptures. That is your belief superimposed on Scripture, which is called eisegesis (reading your meaning into the text and not getting the meaning out of the text).

As I've stated above, the context demonstrates when the gifts of the Spirit will cease: when we are 'face to face' with God. See #432.

Oz
 
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Greg Merrill

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Greg,

That is not what I stated. You have created a straw man. This is the full statement of what I stated: 'I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease "when perfection comes" (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture' (#432).

Now you continue to push your eisegesis on the text with your statement:



There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to the written Scriptures. That is your belief superimposed on Scripture, which is called eisegesis (reading your meaning into the text and not getting the meaning out of the text).

As I've stated above, the context demonstrates when the gifts of the Spirit will cease: when we are 'face to face' with God. See #432.

Oz
To use your own words "There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to" Jesus.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Greg,

That is not what I stated. You have created a straw man. This is the full statement of what I stated: 'I don’t find anything in the text of 1 Cor 13 to state that these gifts will cease "when perfection comes" (v. 10) and that perfection is the completion of the canon of OT and NT Scripture' (#432).

Now you continue to push your eisegesis on the text with your statement:



There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to the written Scriptures. That is your belief superimposed on Scripture, which is called eisegesis (reading your meaning into the text and not getting the meaning out of the text).

As I've stated above, the context demonstrates when the gifts of the Spirit will cease: when we are 'face to face' with God. See #432.

Oz
This is obviously your eisegesis, that perfect refers to Jesus 2nd coming when we shall see him "face to face." Though 1Co 13:12 does use the phrase "face to face," Paul was not using that phrase literally anymore than when he said "For now we see through a glass, darkly;" There was no literally glass, and no literal seeing face to face. What he is saying is that this use of spiritual sign gifts was LIKE looking at yourself in a polished piece of metal (for they didn't have the kind of mirrors we have today). You could get an idea of your appearance, but not a real clear one with ancient mirrors. Sign gifts gave an idea of what was God's stamp of approval on his representatives using them. But when the written Word was complete, then we would have his clear revelation of the authority of His representatives using it, in black and white. We would have the authority of the written Word of God, not just the experiential, miraculous, sign gifts, which would no longer be needed.
 
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Ave Maria

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Looks like you did go back to church again. Why did you choose to be a Catholic? I'm interested to know. You wrote the original post in 2004, 13 years ago. A lot happens in 14 years.

Well, I chose to be Catholic because I was convinced by the historicity of the Catholic Church that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
 
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DeaconDean

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John Gill commented:

"But when that which is perfect is come,.... When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say Midrash Haneelam in Zohar in Gen. fol. 69. 1. that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,

"the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";'

which is what the apostle refers to here:

and then that which is in part, shall be done away: the imperfection of knowledge shall be removed; the imperfect manner of communicating knowledge, and of receiving and acquiring it, will cease: thus the apostle explains what he means by the cessation and failing of knowledge, and prophecy; not that knowledge itself will be no more, and a state of ignorance and darkness succeed; but imperfect knowledge will vanish away, or rather will be perfected, or be swallowed up in perfect knowledge; the imperfection of it will disappear; and it will be no more taught and received in part; the whole of truth will be clearly known."

Source

I am doing a study on textual criticism, and I can tell you for a fact there is no "perfect" version.

The only "perfect" version that I know of was lost some time around the first century. The original autographs, as penned by the Apostles themselves by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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To use your own words "There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to" Jesus.

I wrote in #442: 'There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to the written Scriptures'.
This is obviously your eisegesis, that perfect refers to Jesus 2nd coming when we shall see him "face to face." Though 1Co 13:12 does use the phrase "face to face," Paul was not using that phrase literally anymore than when he said "For now we see through a glass, darkly;" There was no literally glass, and no literal seeing face to face. What he is saying is that this use of spiritual sign gifts was LIKE looking at yourself in a polished piece of metal (for they didn't have the kind of mirrors we have today). You could get an idea of your appearance, but not a real clear one with ancient mirrors. Sign gifts gave an idea of what was God's stamp of approval on his representatives using them. But when the written Word was complete, then we would have his clear revelation of the authority of His representatives using it, in black and white. We would have the authority of the written Word of God, not just the experiential, miraculous, sign gifts, which would no longer be needed.

Not a word in the NT that they concluded with the completing of the canon of Scripture. Not a word.

They all will continue until we are 'face to face'.

They continue as long as there also is a need for teachers, helping and administration (1 Cor 12:28-31). Have those gifts also ceased with the formation of the NT canon of Scripture?

Oz
 
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JM

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Baptists believe in scripture alone. No tongues. The canon is closed. God speaks to us through His revealed word and nothing else.

If you do not believe this you are a charismatic that believes in confessor or credo baptism.

Yours,

j
 
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OzSpen

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Baptists believe in scripture alone. No tongues. The canon is closed. God speaks to us through His revealed word and nothing else.

If you do not believe this you are a charismatic that believes in confessor or credo baptism.

Yours,

j

JM,

Assertions prove nothing. You have not provided exegesis of Scripture to support your position.

Oz
 
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Greg Merrill

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I wrote in #442: 'There is not one word in this text that states that 'complete' refers to the written Scriptures'.


Not a word in the NT that they concluded with the completing of the canon of Scripture. Not a word.

They all will continue until we are 'face to face'.

They continue as long as there also is a need for teachers, helping and administration (1 Cor 12:28-31). Have those gifts also ceased with the formation of the NT canon of Scripture?

Oz
Gifts that are said to have ceased are referred to as "sign gifts" by theologians (tongues, interpretation of tongues, "gifts" of healings, "gifts" of miracles, the "gift of knowledge, prophecy." 1Co 13:8 gives examples of these gifts ceasing when it lists "prophecies, tongues, and knowledge." Gifts such as teaching, ministry, exhortation, mercy, and giving are listed among the gifts in Ro 12:7,8 that are usually recognized as gifts that still are in use today.
 
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