What comes next?

[ac28]

When posting on this thread, please stick to the subject. I know this is very difficult for BAB2 but, in this case, I wish he would make an exception.

I think that the APPEARING, as mentioned several times in Paul's post Acts epistles will be the first event. It says that when Christ Jesus appears in Glory (above the heavens - Psalms 8:1), we shall appear with Him (Colossians 3:4). This is not the same as the ill-named rapture discussed in the books from the Acts period. That "rapture" is made up of those Israelites and grafted in Gentiles. It will occur at the 7th and last trump of Revelation.

Then, the tribulation will start. Please note the following verses:

1 Corinthians 7:29 ...the time is short...
Matthew 16:28 ...there be some standing here which shall not taste of death...
Matthew 24:34 ...this generation shall not pass, til all these things are fulfilled...
Matthew 23:34-39 ...All these things shall come on this generation...
1 Thessalonians 4:17 ...then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up...
James 5:8 ...the coming of the Lord draweth nigh...
Mark 13:13 ...he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved...
Luke 21:31-36 ...when YE see these things come to pass...
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 ... YE...waiting for the Coming...
1 Corinthians 15:51 ... WE shall not all sleep...
Hebrews 10:37 ...He that shall come will come, and will not tarry...
1 Thessalonians 4:15 ...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
Mark 13:30 ...that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
1 Peter 4:7 ...the end of all things is at hand...

There are many more similar verses. Those saved back then were told and believed that the second coming would occur during their lifetimes (at least those that lived through the tribulation).

As things presently stand, all of these verses are lies. However, they can't be lies because God is not a liar. So, the only solution I can see is that the present 2000 years must disappear from history when the tribulation starts, at some certain point before AD 70. It will revert back to the time, probably, late during the Acts period, with only the technology that exixted back then. Sort of like System Restore in Windows. I believe that all Israel from day one (Valley of dry bones plus the proselytes during the OT and those Gentiles grafted into Israel during Acts) will be alive for the tribulation. After all, it is Jacob's trouble. They all will have the opportunity of accepting Jesus Christ.

And, this would certainly cancel all the phoney preterist beliefs.

All this makes perfect sense to me.

I didn't think this up. About 15 years ago, I read it in a book. Lately, though, I started thinking that this was the only way to satisfy those verses I listed. Those verses have been bothering me for 30 years. Also, I've seen those same verses used by those who try to prove that the Bible is not true.

 

[LastSeven]

Subscribing.

 

[BABerean2]

I think that the APPEARING, as mentioned several times in Paul's post Acts epistles will be the first event.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

He will judge both those alive and those dead at His appearing and His kingdom.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This verse says the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet.
How long is "forever"?

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This provides the timing of the judgment of the dead.

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[Danoh]

Ac28, I disagree with most all you wrote as to the appearing that Paul has in mind in 2 Tim. 4, as not being about the Pre-Trib Rapture.

For, while I see that this passage here...

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

...is referring to this judgement here...

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

That is this here...

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Which is this here...

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[ac28]

Ac28, I disagree with most all you wrote as to the appearing that Paul has in mind in 2 Tim. 4, as not being about the Pre-Trib Rapture.

For, while I see that this passage here...

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

...is referring to this judgement here...

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

That is this here...

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Which is this here...

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

What is your Biblical proof that 2 Timothy 4:1 and 1 Timothy 4:8 are the same event as 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 and 2 Corinthians 5:9-10

 

[Razare]

... nevermind.

I think where you're tripping up is mixing up verses with different meanings, thinking they have the same meaning.

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." - Matthew 16:28

Christ's kingdom is in heaven. When he comes to rule an Earthly kingdom in the future, he does that out of obligation, love, and God's word, but not because an Earthly kingdom is the fulfillment of who he is... it is according to the flesh and the lineage of David... but it is not his kingdom according to his divine nature.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." - John 18:36

And some saw Christ coming into his kingdom... which is the kingdom of Heaven, when he ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father.

So don't mix this up. Christ has 2 kingdoms. That Earthly kingdom in the future, promised to an heir of David, is a kingdom established under the covenant of the law, which is an inferior kingdom and an inferior covenant. The greater kingdom and the greater covenant belongs to those who live with God in New Jerusalem in heaven.

So Christ did not lie with his statement, he fulfilled his statement in his lifetime. "The kingdom of God comes not with observation..." It wasn't observed with the natural eye, but it certainly happened spiritually at the atonement of Christ.

As for how soon it is for the end, as Peter and Paul mention. Sometimes, they were mentioning calamities that would befall people in their present generation, for example, when Christ prophesied leave Jerusalem. Those verses can be confused with Revelation, but they weren't meant to be, since they were epistles to specific churches that had persecution in their immediate future.

Then also, when they do refer to how soon the tribulation is. It is a perspective thing:

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. - 2 Peter 3:8

It was soon 2,000 years ago, and it is soon today. Soon must be filtered through the lens of God.

 

[BABerean2]

... nevermind.

I think where you're tripping up is mixing up verses with different meanings, thinking they have the same meaning.

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." - Matthew 16:28

Christ's kingdom is in heaven. When he comes to rule an Earthly kingdom in the future, he does that out of obligation, love, and God's word, but not because an Earthly kingdom is the fulfillment of who he is... it is according to the flesh and the lineage of David... but it is not his kingdom according to his divine nature.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." - John 18:36

And some saw Christ coming into his kingdom... which is the kingdom of Heaven, when he ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father.

So don't mix this up. Christ has 2 kingdoms. That Earthly kingdom in the future, promised to an heir of David, is a kingdom established under the covenant of the law, which is an inferior kingdom and an inferior covenant. The greater kingdom and the greater covenant belongs to those who live with God in New Jerusalem in heaven.

So Christ did not lie with his statement, he fulfilled his statement in his lifetime. "The kingdom of God comes not with observation..." It wasn't observed with the natural eye, but it certainly happened spiritually at the atonement of Christ.

As for how soon it is for the end, as Peter and Paul mention. Sometimes, they were mentioning calamities that would befall people in their present generation, for example, when Christ prophesied leave Jerusalem. Those verses can be confused with Revelation, but they weren't meant to be, since they were epistles to specific churches that had persecution in their immediate future.

Then also, when they do refer to how soon the tribulation is. It is a perspective thing:

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. - 2 Peter 3:8

It was soon 2,000 years ago, and it is soon today. Soon must be filtered through the lens of God.

We do not find 2 Peoples of God with 2 separate kingdoms in the words of Christ below.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Many of the older classic Dispensationalists claim the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same. However, a parallel study of the Gospels reveals the error of this logic.


Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.



Circumcision is of the heart and not of the Flesh.

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[ac28]

Razare,

It's hard to tell from your writings but I assume you are an Acts 2 dispensationalist that erroneously believes the present church, which is His actual body, where Christ is the Head, started at Pentecost. If so, your brand of dispensationalism is the "milkiest" of the 3 basic types. It's almost Baptist and I discard it as I do much of the Baptist doctrine.

If you want some real "meat", stay out of Acts and read up on the real truth for today found only in Ephesians and Paul's other prison epistles. There you'll learn that your calling is not the earthly kingdom or that of the New Jerusalem found in the created heavens. Instead, the Ephesians calling is in the uncreated "far above all heavens" where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. The only place in the Bible that this calling exists is in Paul's last 7 epistles.

 

[BABerean2]

It's hard to tell from your writings but I assume you are an Acts 2 dispensationalist that erroneously believes the present church, which is His actual body, where Christ is the Head, started at Pentecost.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven. (CJB)


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

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