What are your views on the doctrine of penal substitution?

[MoreCoffee]

hmm the church is the body .. and Christ is the head .. so ... hmmmm

if the afflictions are not full .. so then .. the sufferings of the saints .. fulfills something .. like a prophecy .. or like when the sin of the amorites were full .. so it could be like .. the fullness of it is very ephesians 2:22 .

I think it is more related to:

I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, it says: He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men. What does he ascended mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body's growth and builds itself up in love.
Ephesians 4:1-16
​

 

[Seeking Him]

What the faithful add is themselves; their pain, their suffering, their hope, their failures, their successes, everything that they are is added to the saving work of Christ on the cross and then it is offered to God in the timeless offering of Christ to God. Saint Paul expressed it thus: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God's stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Colossians 1:24-27

I don't believe we can add on to Christ's redemptive sufffering. It was redemptive. We can't add our merits.

 

[Seeking Him]

The Christian Doctrine on forgiveness is based on the Bible concept of "Atonement" and begins with "God so Loved the World that HE Gave His only Son..." John 3:16

in 1 John 2:2 Christ is the "ATONING SACRIFICE for OUR sins and not for our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"

Sin "IS transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4 as we are told in the NT.

Christ paid our "debt of Sin" as you point out in Isaiah 53.

The moral Law says "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 - it is the second death of Rev 20 in the lake of fire - suffering and torment in fire and brimstone Rev 14:10-11.

Luke 12:45-48 says that each person owes a different level of suffering and torment death - that goes to hell. Each one is judged by their deeds. Each one suffers the exact punishment owed for sins committed. And Luke 12 says some suffer more and some suffer less depending on the case.

Christ paid for ALL of it - accumulated the full level of debt owed for each sin by each person in all of time.

The moral LAW shows that ALL are under sin - and all owe some level of debt in that 2nd death - lake of fire event, according to Romans 3.

Christ suffered and died for all the debt -- all of it accounted for.

This is the level of "provision" in the Gospel - and all we need to do is accept it. For those who reject the Gospel - well they pay again - their own level of debt - in that 2nd death Lake of Fire of Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks for your post.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think it is more related to:

I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, it says: He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men. What does he ascended mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body's growth and builds itself up in love.
Ephesians 4:1-16
​

that one's good as well .

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for your post.

I am glad you were blessed by this. I too am blessed by your comments and interest in so important a Bible topic. What a joy to see fellow believers in Christ so eager to study the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The work of redemption is incomplete until it is applied and saint Paul along with Christians in every age have, through their testimony to Christ, added the application to the work of redemption.

That is a play on words using them for two different meanings.

The work of redemption was completed at the cross by the "once for all" sacrifice of Christ according to Hebrews 10 and so Christ declares "It is Finished!" at the cross not "it is ongoing!".

That provides all of the "atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2 - and not "for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the whole WORLD"

There is no text saying that by someone else's sufferings we are forgiven of sins. We only find our payment for sins, or forgiveness of sins in the blood of Christ - His suffering and death alone - pay our debt of sin.

But that does not mean that no part of the body of Christ will ever suffer any persecution or sickness or unfair treatment from our fellow man. All who choose to live Godly will suffer persecution - that is a Bible prediction we cannot avoid it.

But what we suffer does not expiate sin in any measure for anyone - not even for ourselves. Our own sufferings in this life do not pay even our OWN debt of sin - much less that of someone else. Hebrews 10 does not say that "the blood of animals could never take away sins but our own sufferings in this life help pay for our debt of sin".

Beyond that - I do agree that using redemption beyond the concept of "paying the sin debt" does include the fact that we must choose to Accept Christ and to persevere in remaining faithful to Christ as Christians even through trials and persecution.

The "redeemed" are not the lost wicked people in hell - only because they rejected salvation.

Christ sends the apostles as his witnesses to complete the work of redemption

I have yet to find one single text in actual scripture saying that "the apostles were sent to complete the work of Redemption"

and the Holy Spirit is given to them (and to us) to enable those who labour to finish the work.

The work of spreading the Gospel -- yes.

The work of paying for mankind's debt of sin? no.

We find forgiveness of sins "in Christ alone".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is a play on words using them for two different meanings.

The work of redemption was completed at the cross by the "once for all" sacrifice of Christ according to Hebrews 10 and so Christ declares "It is Finished!"

Saint Paul summarised how redemption works by writing:

For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring (the) good news!
Romans 10:13-15
​

Without somebody to preach the message would not be heard and without being heard it would not be believed and without being believed none would be saved. Thus the work of redeeming people from the world requires the ministry of the body of Christ which is the church.

 

[Setyoufree]

Hi, Isaiah 53 shows how Jesus suffered vicariously for us. The more I meditate on this chapter, the more I see that. It was God's will to cause him to suffer. He was pierced, he was crushed. He was punished, his soul suffered, he was the sin offering. But he justified many.

But Jesus wasn't the sinner. The Bible clearly states that the person who sins he must die. Here it is:

Ez 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Jesus cannot bear our guilt because He was & is sinless. The law demands that the sinner must die. If you say Christ died the curse of the law (see Gal 3:13) then Christ had to be a sinner for the law to justly and ethically condemn Him. But we know that Christ as the Son of God was sinless & without blame.

If a someone murdered your family and you went before the judge and exclaimed, "I'll die in this man's place" the judge would say, "You aren't the murderer! The law demands that the murderer must die, not you." And then the judge would have you sent to the nuthouse.

So not even earthly courts allow the innocent to die for the guilty.

Is there a solution?

Yes!

It's called the gospel, not this vicarious, heretical gospel. The vicarious gospel makes God unjust and unethical.

Will the real gospel please stand up???

 

[Gregory Thompson]

yeah using the roman legal system as an example was a parable because God operates in a contrary manner to that of the world .. sometimes in ways we might not expect .

 

[seeingeyes]

You are right, I had to develop one that worked.

What is the name of your model? Mind giving a summary? (Perhaps in a new thread if the OP wants to stay on topic.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

What is the name of your model? Mind giving a summary? (Perhaps in a new thread if the OP wants to stay on topic.)

If you handle via pm, I would appreciate hearing. Don't wish to derail this thread.

Thanks.

 

[Seeking Him]

I can understand how one ought to be comforted in suffering for the sake of the Gospel.

I guess the part I don't understand is "what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body".

On the surface, it seems to imply that something is lacking in the sacrifice of Christ, which of course we know can't be true. So I have to assume I am misunderstanding that part completely.

Thank you for the reply.

Here's a quote from commentator John Phillips:
"Paul links his suffering with the sufferings of Christ and also the sufferings of the church. Christ suffered for our sins; that was redemptive suffering, Christ suffers with his saints; that is responsive sufferings."
Paul said if we suffer with him we'll reign with him. We'd suffer persecution. Since we are connected to the head as the body, we and Christ suffer together. Just some thoughts.

 

[Seeking Him]

I am glad you were blessed by this. I too am blessed by your comments and interest in so important a Bible topic. What a joy to see fellow believers in Christ so eager to study the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

Here is another quote from commentator John Phillips:

"Then the problem arose. God's holiness said "Punish them." God's love said "Pardon them." The solution was costly beyond anything that we can conceive. God passed sentence against the human race, the maximum senrtence commensurate with absolute holiness-death, followed by eternal damnation, in those dread mysterious fires prepared for the devil and his angels. Then Jesus paid the penalty himself. Thus the demands of God's holiness and the demands of his love have been fully met."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here's a quote from commentator John Phillips:
"Paul links his suffering with the sufferings of Christ and also the sufferings of the church. Christ suffered for our sins; that was redemptive suffering, Christ suffers with his saints; that is responsive sufferings."
Paul said if we suffer with him we'll reign with him. We'd suffer persecution. Since we are connected to the head as the body, we and Christ suffer together. Just some thoughts.

Thank you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What the faithful add is themselves; their pain, their suffering, their hope, their failures, their successes, everything that they are is added to the saving work of Christ on the cross and then it is offered to God in the timeless offering of Christ to God. Saint Paul expressed it thus: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God's stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Colossians 1:24-27

The work of redemption is incomplete until it is applied and saint Paul along with Christians in every age have, through their testimony to Christ, added the application to the work of redemption. Some Christians, in their zeal to elevate Christ, miss the obvious meaning of the great commission and associated passages. Christ sends the apostles as his witnesses to complete the work of redemption and the Holy Spirit is given to them (and to us) to enable those who labour to finish the work. Thus saint Paul really and truly does "supply what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body". Without the testimony of Christians (Matth 28:18-20), their work in forgiving sins (John 20:19-23), and all the other things that are necessary for the life of the church (1 Corinthians 12-14, and a bunch of other passages) none would be saved.

One is glad to have been of service

Personal suffering can be a testimony to Christ. I think of pope John Paul II's suffering in his last years and I cannot help but conclude that his persistence in office and bravery in the face of great personal suffering was a tremendous testimony to Christ for all those who are suffering from the same kinds of debilitating illnesses that he had and also for all of us who struggle with far smaller impediments to service.

I don't believe we can add on to Christ's redemptive suffering. It was redemptive. We can't add our merits.

Above I've included some posts that I wrote for sister Kylissa. I hope they are helpful in answering your implied objection.

God bless

 

[FireDragon76]

The whole idea of penal substitution suggests a contradiction in the Godhead, which is a sub-Christian notion. That God's holiness struggles with his love. Yet, God's holiness is his love, especially in his love for those we would consider undeserving of it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Say what you may, but the book of Romans presents the argument for the penal substitution of Jesus Christ for our sins. I choose to believe Romans rather than speculative theology.

 

[Near]

The idea of penal substitution is totally ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with justice.
It paints the false image that God has to pour his wrath on someone (Jesus), in order to forgive someone else.
What I do when someone is mean to me is: forgive...
I don't have to go out and find an innocent victim to kill in the name of justice.
Jesus' death on the cross was for his cleansing blood and to show his victory over death in the Resurrection, and to make a New Covenant. The book of Hebrews offers a clear portrayal of Christ's death.
There seems to be to much focus on punishment rather than the holy blood of Jesus.

Say what you may, but the book of Romans presents the argument for the penal substitution of Jesus Christ for our sins. I choose to believe Romans rather than speculative theology.

The book of Romans in no way presents an argument for penal substitution; what about Romans 8:3? It says sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned.
That doctrine was literally made up by the Reformers a thousand plus years after the Passion of Christ; that's speculative theology.

A few excerts from the book of Romans:
Heb 9:14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(...)
16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid onlywhen men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
(...)
21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The idea of penal substitution is totally ridiculous.
It has nothing to do with justice.
It paints the false image that God has to pour his wrath on someone (Jesus), in order to forgive someone else.
What I do when someone is mean to me is: forgive...
I don't have to go out and find an innocent victim to kill in the name of justice.
Jesus' death on the cross was for his cleansing blood and to show his victory over death in the Resurrection, and to make a New Covenant. The book of Hebrews offers a clear portrayal of Christ's death.
There seems to be to much focus on punishment rather than the holy blood of Jesus.


The book of Romans in no way presents an argument for penal substitution; what about Romans 8:3? It says sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned.
That doctrine was literally made up by the Reformers a thousand plus years after the Passion of Christ; that's speculative theology.

A few excerts from the book of Romans:
Heb 9:14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(...)
16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid onlywhen men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
(...)
21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[FireDragon76]

A vicarious death is not the same as a penal substitutionary death.

Penal substitution involves a lot of speculation on the nature of God, and its ideal of justice is not particularly biblical. It's late medieval. God's justice is covenant faithfulness, not retribution.