What are your views on the doctrine of penal substitution?

[bling]

Why believe any of the atonement models, then? :shrug:

You are right, I had to develop one that worked.

 

[Seeking Him]

Nice. Timothy George is a great teacher.

Yes, I've learned alot from him. This was from his commentary on Galatians.

 

[Seeking Him]

Expiation is the act of redemption and atonement for sin which Christ won for us by the pouring out of his Blood on the cross, by his obedient love “even to the end” (Jn 13:1) (433, 616, 1475). The expiation of sins continues in the mystical body of Christ and the communion of saints by joining our human acts of atonement to the redemptive action of Christ, both in this life and in Purgatory.

The name of the Savior God was invoked only once in the year by the high priest in atonement for the sins of Israel, after he had sprinkled the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies with the sacrificial blood. The mercy seat was the place of God’s presence.(Ex 25:22; Lev 16:2,15–16; Num 7:89; Sir 50:20; Heb 9:5, 7) When St. Paul speaks of Jesus whom “God put forward as an expiation by his blood,” he means that in Christ’s humanity “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”(Rom 3:25; 2 Cor 5:19)

It is love “to the end”(Jn 13:1) that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.(Gal 2:20; Eph 5:2, 25) Now “the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.”(2 Cor 5:14) No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

(from the CCC)

Hi, I don't believe we can add on to the atonement. Jesus cried, It is finished. We can't add our merits, works. It can't be earned. We can't meet the divine standard. God demands perfect holiness reign in his economy, and there is nothing we can contribute to that. Only his perfect son could. Perfect holiness and divine justice came back under the Father's satisfaction and domain through the son's sacrifice. animal sacrifice he did not desire, but a body He prepared for the son.

 

[Seeking Him]

Penal substitution tends to paint god as an entity that one can make a deal with . and Jesus made that deal .

the premise lacks in its presentation of God, the attributes Jesus described his father as in the gospels .

Hi, I think God in his great love hasn't charged us for our redemption. When we think of justice,all sin has to be punished. God's holiness demands it. That is the wrath to be revealed against all unrighteousness. Sin purged and destroyed. But because God is love, his love put the demand that he make a way to uphold his divine justice, yet save us from destruction and the suffering of the punishment we deserve. Then to bless us with his own divine nature and gift of rightnessness imputed. I think this is in keeping with the Fathers attributes.
I think the church on the whole doesn't realize the horror of sin and greatness of righteousness. The unfathomable suffering Jesus endured for us, the price he paid. I know in all my years as a christian I hardly ever heard these truths taught. I want to learn more about them.

 

[Seeking Him]

Have people stopped sinning? Is sin still in the world? Can Christians sin? If all this still happens what does it meant by: “take away sins?”

We know: “it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.” So that would suggest Christ’s sacrifice on the cross could enable the taking away of sins, so does that mean we can now have our sins forgiven and forgotten by God or is there more to it?

You say: “Our old nature was crucified with him...” but Paul did not say it was his “nature” that was crucified with Christ, but specifically says: “I have been crucified with Christ…” , so how does that happen?

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

You say: “If we had a part to play… it would not be atonement.” But looking at the atonement process for unintentional sins in Lev. 5 there was a “part” the sinner played in the atonement process. I am not saying the part is anything beyond trusting, understanding, accepting and allowing what happen to affect you.

What “demands of Love” are you talking about? Yes, Love compels God and Christ to do all they do, but does “Love” itself have to be satisfied or does Love demand the helping of others?

Gabriel said: “…decreed concerning your people and your holy city to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.”

So how has an “end” come to sin?

Gabriel did not say: “Christ will do the atonement”, but did say there would be “atonement for iniquities”.

Atonement for intentional sins is possible through Christ’s sacrifice, if we belief in what he did for us and accept this gift (ransom) that was made for us. Christ is worship to God (offering up His Loving obedience to God) but it is to our benefit.

The putting away of sin, I believe was something that takes into account all the sins into eternity. Christ was offered through the eternal spirit. To put an end to sin accounting the future. Jesus was the only one who did and could atone as the perfect spotless lamb of God.
I believe it was the old nature Paul was speaking of in Galatians. "Yet not I."
Heb 9:26 He has appeared to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Thanks for your post.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi, I don't believe we can add on to the atonement. Jesus cried, It is finished. We can't add our merits, works. It can't be earned. We can't meet the divine standard. God demands perfect holiness reign in his economy, and there is nothing we can contribute to that. Only his perfect son could. Perfect holiness and divine justice came back under the Father's satisfaction and domain through the son's sacrifice. animal sacrifice he did not desire, but a body He prepared for the son.

What the faithful add is themselves; their pain, their suffering, their hope, their failures, their successes, everything that they are is added to the saving work of Christ on the cross and then it is offered to God in the timeless offering of Christ to God. Saint Paul expressed it thus: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God's stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Colossians 1:24-27

 

[BobRyan]

What the faithful add is themselves; their pain, their suffering,

Our suffering does not even begin to pay our own debt of sin. Christ alone pays the debt for us -

He pays the torment and suffering owed for each sin - in the second death that we would be doomed to experience -- were it not for the Gospel way of escape.

As noted here.

The Christian Doctrine on forgiveness is based on the Bible concept of "Atonement" and begins with "God so Loved the World that HE Gave His only Son..." John 3:16

in 1 John 2:2 Christ is the "ATONING SACRIFICE for OUR sins and not for our SINS only but for the SINS of the whole world"

Sin "IS transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4 as we are told in the NT.

Christ paid our "debt of Sin" as you point out in Isaiah 53.

The moral Law says "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 - it is the second death of Rev 20 in the lake of fire - suffering and torment in fire and brimstone Rev 14:10-11.

Luke 12:45-48 says that each person owes a different level of suffering and torment death - that goes to hell. Each one is judged by their deeds. Each one suffers the exact punishment owed for sins committed. And Luke 12 says some suffer more and some suffer less depending on the case.

Christ paid for ALL of it - accumulated the full level of debt owed for each sin by each person in all of time.

The moral LAW shows that ALL are under sin - and all owe some level of debt in that 2nd death - lake of fire event, according to Romans 3.

Christ suffered and died for all the debt -- all of it accounted for.

This is the level of "provision" in the Gospel - and all we need to do is accept it. For those who reject the Gospel - well they pay again - their own level of debt - in that 2nd death Lake of Fire of Rev 20.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What the faithful add is themselves; their pain, their suffering, their hope, their failures, their successes, everything that they are is added to the saving work of Christ on the cross and then it is offered to God in the timeless offering of Christ to God. Saint Paul expressed it thus: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God's stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Colossians 1:24-27

Our suffering does not even begin to pay our own debt of sin. Christ alone pays the debt for us -

He pays the torment and suffering owed for each sin - in the second death that we would be doomed to experience -- were it not for the Gospel way of escape.

The scripture is a comfort to the suffering that they may know that what they suffer for the sake of the gospel is not meaningless but that it is redemptive and just as saint Paul was comforted to know that his sufferings were filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body so too are the sufferings of the faithful through all the ages.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi, I think God in his great love hasn't charged us for our redemption. When we think of justice,all sin has to be punished. God's holiness demands it. That is the wrath to be revealed against all unrighteousness. Sin purged and destroyed. But because God is love, his love put the demand that he make a way to uphold his divine justice, yet save us from destruction and the suffering of the punishment we deserve. Then to bless us with his own divine nature and gift of rightnessness imputed. I think this is in keeping with the Fathers attributes.
I think the church on the whole doesn't realize the horror of sin and greatness of righteousness. The unfathomable suffering Jesus endured for us, the price he paid. I know in all my years as a christian I hardly ever heard these truths taught. I want to learn more about them.

when people speak of a lake of fire and sin, i am continually reminded of how Paul spoke of sin as a force separate from his will and conscience living within his members . and go from there .

 

[BobRyan]

The scripture is a comfort to the suffering that they may know that what they suffer for the sake of the gospel is not meaningless but that it is redemptive and just as saint Paul was comforted to know that his sufferings were filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body so too are the sufferings of the faithful through all the ages.

the text says -

in Matt 10 "take up your cross and follow me" - we do not save the world or die on the cross and pay for the sins of the world along with Christ. He alone is Savior and says "“I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no Savior besides Me." Is 45:21, Is 43:11


1 Cor 1
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


Col 1
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

1 Thess 3
8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord. 9 For what thanks can we render to God for you in return for all the joy with which we rejoice before our God on your account, 10 as we night and day keep praying most earnestly that we may see your face, and may complete what is lacking in your faith?


Just as you cannot have faith for someone else you cannot pay for the sins of someone else as their Savior... not even a little.


And even the RCC does not allow that one living person may pay the sin debt, the debt of sin for another living person while both live.


But in the Bible examples Paul includes the living for the living in the case of completing what is "lacking in your faith" and in the case of " I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions."

In both cases it is not as Savior but as fellow Christians suffering as did Christ "In this world you have tribulation be of good courage for I have overcome the world".

2Tim 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

when people speak of a lake of fire and sin, .

As does John in Rev 20 and 1John 2.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What the faithful add is themselves; their pain, their suffering, their hope, their failures, their successes, everything that they are is added to the saving work of Christ on the cross and then it is offered to God in the timeless offering of Christ to God. Saint Paul expressed it thus: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God's stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Colossians 1:24-27

Our suffering does not even begin to pay our own debt of sin. Christ alone pays the debt for us -

He pays the torment and suffering owed for each sin - in the second death that we would be doomed to experience -- were it not for the Gospel way of escape.

The scripture is a comfort to the suffering that they may know that what they suffer for the sake of the gospel is not meaningless but that it is redemptive and just as saint Paul was comforted to know that his sufferings were filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body so too are the sufferings of the faithful through all the ages.

the text says - in Matt 10 "take up your cross and follow me" - we do not save the world or die on the cross and pay for the sins of the world along with Christ. He alone is Savior and says "“I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no Savior besides Me." Is 45:21, Is 43:11

And your point is?

 

[~Anastasia~]

The scripture is a comfort to the suffering that they may know that what they suffer for the sake of the gospel is not meaningless but that it is redemptive and just as saint Paul was comforted to know that his sufferings were filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body so too are the sufferings of the faithful through all the ages.

MC, could you please elaborate on this? I read your prior post, and I see it is Scripture, but I am not sure I understand how you are interpreting it.

I started to speculate, but perhaps it's better if I don't, and I am quite likely to be wrong.

Thank you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, could you please elaborate on this? I read your prior post, and I see it is Scripture, but I am not sure I understand how you are interpreting it.

I started to speculate, but perhaps it's better if I don't, and I am quite likely to be wrong.

Thank you.

The context helps. Paul recounts some of his suffering for the sake of the gospel by which he means the beatings and imprisonments and other things that came from his missionary journeys and his work in birthing churches and guiding them once they were formed.

A Christian who suffers (through the sorts of things that Paul suffered or through sickness and injury brought on because of their faithful witness to Christ) ought to draw comfort from the words of saint Paul.

And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God's stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory. It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.
Colossians 1:21-29
​

 

[~Anastasia~]

The context helps. Paul recounts some of his suffering for the sake of the gospel by which he means the beatings and imprisonments and other things that came from his missionary journeys and his work in birthing churches and guiding them once they were formed.

A Christian who suffers (through the sorts of things that Paul suffered or through sickness and injury brought on because of their faithful witness to Christ) ought to draw comfort from the words of saint Paul.

I can understand how one ought to be comforted in suffering for the sake of the Gospel.

I guess the part I don't understand is "what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body".

On the surface, it seems to imply that something is lacking in the sacrifice of Christ, which of course we know can't be true. So I have to assume I am misunderstanding that part completely.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I can understand how one ought to be comforted in suffering for the sake of the Gospel.

I guess the part I don't understand is "what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body".

On the surface, it seems to imply that something is lacking in the sacrifice of Christ, which of course we know can't be true. So I have to assume I am misunderstanding that part completely.

Thank you for the reply.

The work of redemption is incomplete until it is applied and saint Paul along with Christians in every age have, through their testimony to Christ, added the application to the work of redemption. Some Christians, in their zeal to elevate Christ, miss the obvious meaning of the great commission and associated passages. Christ sends the apostles as his witnesses to complete the work of redemption and the Holy Spirit is given to them (and to us) to enable those who labour to finish the work. Thus saint Paul really and truly does "supply what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body". Without the testimony of Christians (Matth 28:18-20), their work in forgiving sins (John 20:19-23), and all the other things that are necessary for the life of the church (1 Corinthians 12-14, and a bunch of other passages) none would be saved.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The work of redemption is incomplete until it is applied and saint Paul along with Christians in every age have, through their testimony to Christ, added the application to the work of redemption. Some Christians, in their zeal to elevate Christ, miss the obvious meaning of the great commission and associated passages. Christ sends the apostles as his witnesses to complete the work of redemption and the Holy Spirit is given to them (and to us) to enable those who labour to finish the work. Thus saint Paul really and truly does "supply what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body". Without the testimony of Christians (Matth 28:18-20), their work in forgiving sins (John 20:19-23), and all the other things that are necessary for the life of the church (1 Corinthians 12-14, and a bunch of other passages) none would be saved.

OHHHHHH. OK, I was taking a completely different meaning from that. Completely different. I see what you are saying. Thank you, that makes sense. I appreciate your reply.

 

[MoreCoffee]

OHHHHHH. OK, I was taking a completely different meaning from that. Completely different. I see what you are saying. Thank you, that makes sense. I appreciate your reply.

One is glad to have been of service

Personal suffering can be a testimony to Christ. I think of pope John Paul II's suffering in his last years and I cannot help but conclude that his persistence in office and bravery in the face of great personal suffering was a tremendous testimony to Christ for all those who are suffering from the same kinds of debilitating illnesses that he had and also for all of us who struggle with far smaller impediments to service.

 

[~Anastasia~]

One is glad to have been of service

Personal suffering can be a testimony to Christ. I think of pope John Paul II's suffering in his last years and I cannot help but conclude that his persistence in office and bravery in the face of great personal suffering was a tremendous testimony to Christ for all those who are suffering from the same kinds of debilitating illnesses that he had and also for all of us who struggle with far smaller impediments to service.

Yes, I know I can see it as an inspiration when people who must endure different kinds of suffering maintain their faith, and especially when they praise God through their trials.

Makes one feel extremely petty for one's inclination to complain over lesser troubles. Very humbling in that sense.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

hmm the church is the body .. and Christ is the head .. so ... hmmmm

if the afflictions are not full .. so then .. the sufferings of the saints .. fulfills something .. like a prophecy .. or like when the sin of the amorites were full .. so it could be like .. the fullness of it is very ephesians 2:22 .