What are the Lessons of the Protestant Reformation?

[Rhamiel]

The RCC now accept Easter Orthodox Christians to communion.

I think that is an over simplification

we recognize the Holy Orders of the Eastern Orthodox Church
but they are still in a state of Schism
and they are only welcome to commune in a Catholic Church if their are extenuating circumstances
here is an example
My Dad was in Egypt in 1990, he was in the Navy during the Gulf War
there were no Catholic Priests around to celebrate Mass, so the Coptic Church (an Oriental Orthodox Church) extended an invitation to the Catholic Sailors in the US Navy to go to Divine Liturgy with them and receive communion
now this was only done because there were no Catholic priests to minister to these men
it is only because of extenuating circumstances

 

[Rhamiel]

It would be a major step forward for them to accept Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists who believe that Jesus is really present and that we truly receive him.

well we can not accept those denominations because they do not have valid Holy Orders
so no real priesthood
in any of these groups
that has been explicitly stated for the Anglicans
and it is reasonable to think that holds for Lutherans as well, for various reasons

 

[Open Heart]

He also seemed to have lamented what he had unleashed.

Yes. Luther said,"I used to struggle with one pope. Now I struggle with a hundred popes."

 

[kit]

well we can not accept those denominations because they do not have valid Holy Orders
so no real priesthood
in any of these groups
that has been explicitly stated for the Anglicans
and it is reasonable to think that holds for Lutherans as well, for various reasons

Even more so for Lutherans. Even where they maintained an ordination lineage they don't recognize Apostolic Succession as intrinsic to the sacerdotal Priesthood.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

How would that work? Transubstantiation is pretty concrete and the very essence of worship. Lutherans don't believe that. Just because the liturgies look the same does not mean that they are the same.

Lutherans agree with Catholics that Christ's very body and blood are present in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist is a means of grace. Lutherans do not use the logic of Aristotle (who, BTW was Pagan) to try and define how it happens.

Also, kit, this is a congregational area, non Christians are allowed to post in fellowship and to ask questions; they are not allowed to teach.

 

[kit]

Lutherans agree with Catholics that Christ's very body and blood are present in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist is a means of grace. Lutherans do not use the logic of Aristotle (who, BTW was Pagan) to try and define how it happens.

Also, kit, this is a congregational area, non Christians are allowed to post in fellowship and to ask questions; they are not allowed to teach.

I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic regardless of my defection.

That having been said. How do you reconcile Transubstantiation with Lutheran opposition to that understanding. By all means teach how rejection of sacerdotal ministry in Lutheran understanding comports with Catholic requirement of it.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic regardless of my defection.

That having been said. How do you reconcile Transubstantiation with Lutheran opposition to that understanding. By all means teach how rejection of sacerdotal ministry in Lutheran understanding comports with Catholic requirement of it.

It's my understanding that Catholics can't serve two masters. BTW, here is the rule:

Congregational Forum Restrictions and Christians Only Forums
Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum. There are forums reserved for Christian members only. Please do not post in these forums unless you are truly a Christian (please see our Statement of Faith to know exactly what that is). If you wish to discuss unorthodox Christian theology, you may do so in the Controversial Theology forum.

 

[FireDragon76]

How would that work? Transubstantiation is pretty concrete and the very essence of worship. Lutherans don't believe that

1) Lutheran believe the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ
2) Most Roman Catholics in the US don't actually believe in transubstantiation.

 

[Albion]

How would that work? Transubstantiation is pretty concrete and the very essence of worship. Lutherans don't believe that. Just because the liturgies look the same does not mean that they are the same.

It wouldn't be much of a change for Catholics to accept the Lutheran view of the sacrament, though. The same "Presence" is defined in the same way, etc. I believe that one of the Lutheran-Catholic discussions on the Eucharist resulted in the Catholic Church saying that Trans is merely a more emphatic way of understanding the reality of the Presence.

 

[Rhamiel]

1) Lutheran believe the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ
2) Most Roman Catholics in the US don't actually believe in transubstantiation.

well it seems for the first statement you are talking about what the Lutheran denomination believes
and for the second part you are talking about popular views among the laity

I wonder how many Lutherans believe that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ?

anyways, the Catholic Church does not recognize the Holy Orders of the Lutheran or Anglican denominations
so we can talk about what theology we agree on
and we can work together on join enterprises
but I do not think we will be able to have true unity as the Lutherans like to imagine unity to be

 

[mark46]

It wouldn't be much of a change for Catholics to accept the Lutheran view of the sacrament, though. The same "Presence" is defined in the same way, etc. I believe that one of the Lutheran-Catholic discussions on the Eucharist resulted in the Catholic Church saying that Trans is merely a more emphatic way of understanding the reality of the Presence.

I agree.

I believe that we will know a lot more in 2017, the anniversary of the Reformation.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

well it seems for the first statement you are talking about what the Lutheran denomination believes
and for the second part you are talking about popular views among the laity

I wonder how many Lutherans believe that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ?

anyways, the Catholic Church does not recognize the Holy Orders of the Lutheran or Anglican denominations
so we can talk about what theology we agree on
and we can work together on join enterprises
but I do not think we will be able to have true unity as the Lutherans like to imagine unity to be

Rhamiel, my dear friend, with all due respect, I can not let this go.
We Lutherans (at least the confessional ones) know that it is indeed Christ's body and blood. We know there can not be altar and pulpit fellowship between us. The over optimistic liberal Synods figure it's imminent, but we know better; you know better.

We, even though we disagree with the transubstantiation definition of the Eucharist, recognize that the Catholic Eucharist, like ours, is valid and efficacious.

We see the Catholic position regarding the validity of our Clergy and our Eucharist as the only claim of exclusivity and a monopoly on the Christian faith that the CC possesses.

We know better.

 

[Rhamiel]

Rhamiel, my dear friend, with all due respect, I can not let this go.
We Lutherans (at least the confessional ones) know that it is indeed Christ's body and blood. We know there can not be altar and pulpit fellowship between us. The over optimistic liberal Synods figure it's imminent, but we know better; you know better.

We, even though we disagree with the transubstantiation definition of the Eucharist, recognize that the Catholic Eucharist, like ours, is valid and efficacious.

We see the Catholic position regarding the validity of our Clergy and our Eucharist as the only claim of exclusivity and a monopoly on the Christian faith that the CC possesses.

We know better.

Mark
you are representing the Lutheran position, I respect that
I do not agree, but I understand that this is what your church teaches and I respect it

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark
you are representing the Lutheran position, I respect that
I do not agree, but I understand that this is what your church teaches and I respect it

I know, but I had to add it for balance!

 

[mark46]

It wouldn't be much of a change for Catholics to accept the Lutheran view of the sacrament, though. The same "Presence" is defined in the same way, etc. I believe that one of the Lutheran-Catholic discussions on the Eucharist resulted in the Catholic Church saying that Trans is merely a more emphatic way of understanding the reality of the Presence.

I don't think that Lutherans and Roman Catholics are very far apart at all with regard to their understanding of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. See below for a recent document (e.g. 153). As I said elsewhere, I expect to see more concrete actions in 2017 when the anniversary of the reformation is celebrated.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...l-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html#Eucharist_

 

[Albion]

I don't think that Lutherans and Roman Catholics are very far apart at all with regard to their understanding of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I suppose it depends on what one sees as "far." To insist that the bread and wine cease to exist seems a significant difference to me...and that's just to speak of the difference relating to the nature of the elements themselves.

Perhaps the RCC will come around and agree to abandon its historic insistence upon the Mass being a resacrificing of Christ, however. The more recent statements from the Vatican have attempted to blur the point sufficient to effect a change without admitting to it--something like she has done with Purgatory. But Transubstantiation will be a tougher issue to solve, I'm thinking.

 

[mark46]

I suppose it depends on what one sees as "far." To insist that the bread and wine cease to exist seems a significant difference to me...and that's just to speak of the difference relating to the nature of the elements themselves.

Perhaps the RCC will come around and agree to abandon its historic insistence upon the Mass being a resacrificing of Christ, however. The more recent statements from the Vatican have attempted to blur the point sufficient to effect a change without admitting to it--something like she has done with Purgatory. But Transubstantiation will be a tougher issue to solve, I'm thinking.

The document that I citing discusses these issues and seems very open to closing gaps.

 

[Albion]

The document that I citing discusses these issues and seems very open to closing gaps.

I shouldn't be overly negative about this. Any step towards reconciliation is laudable, but what you have to do with these joint discussion pronouncements is notice how the wording can be understood as referring to the view of either side, depending solely upon which one is doing the reading.

Take this snippet for example:

Convergence in understanding eucharistic sacrifice

157. With regard to the issue that was of the greatest importance for the reformers, the eucharistic sacrifice, the Catholic–Lutheran dialogue stated as a basic principle: “Catholic and Lutheran Christians together recognize that in the Lord’s Supper Jesus Christ ‘is present as the Crucified who died for our sins and who rose again for our justification, as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world.’ This sacrifice can be neither continued, nor repeated, nor replaced, nor complemented; but rather it can and should become ever effective anew in the midst of the congregation.

Lutherans read: : "once-for-all"sacrifice, so no re-sacrifice of Christ. Catholics read: "ever effective," i.e. the sacrifice of the Mass is above all time and space, so in a mysteriously way, the Mass is the original sacrificing of Christ on the cross in Jerusalem with all the benefits of a real sacrifice ("ever effective anew").

And as concerns the areas of the document in which there does appear to be a consensus, what the agreement amounts to is a clarification of what the two sides actually do believe and historically have believed, to the exclusion of popular misconceptions of their positions. That's good, I would say, but it suggests that the process is in the beginning stages.