LDS What about the other standard works? (D&C and POGP)

[dzheremi]

Both on this forum and in real life, it is common that Mormons make appeals to prayer regarding the truthfulness and/or reliability of the Book of Mormon, as this is a common idea among LDS: if you approach God with a sincere heart and openness about it, the Holy Spirit will reveal to you that the Book of Mormon, and hence the LDS Church, is true (or some variation on that idea, always involving sincerely asking in prayer about the truth of your religion in some fashion).

I don't so much want to discuss that idea in itself, but the thought has occurred to me that the Book of Mormon is not the only text regarded as scripture in the LDS faith, so I can't help but wonder: is the same advice/method given to potential converts regarding the other LDS scriptures, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price? If not, why not?

Come to think of it, what if anything are potential converts taught about these works and their contents? Are they given to potential converts to examine in the process of LDS mission work, or is that mainly focused on convincing them of the truth of the BOM in particular, with the others to come later after they've accepted the BOM? I've seen bound collections of all three together, though I don't how common that is. It makes sense to me, since they're all considered scripture in your church. I've had LDS people I knew at the time try to give me a BOM to read (which I politely declined), but they never even tried to talk to me about the other two (I learned about those later, on my own), so I wonder if my experience is following standard Mormon practice or not. If these additional works are not given to potential converts, would they be given if the convert knew to ask for/about them, or is that discouraged or not allowed for some reason?

Just curious, since my own tradition doesn't have scriptures other than the Bible, so I don't know how this works. Thank you.

 

[Ironhold]

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

This is the Sunday School manual for investigators and new converts. It might answer a lot of the questions you've been having if you'd at least skim it.

 

[dzheremi]

That does not answer my question, I don't think. I am asking whether or not LDS (missionaries or whoever) give potential converts copies of their other scriptures -- not the Bible or the BOM -- to read before/during the process of deciding to convert to Mormonism. I did not see that question answered anywhere in the section on scripture in your manual (though that's the only section I skimmed, since my question is about how/if you guys present your scriptures to inquirers).

 

[Ironhold]

Most people start with the Book of Mormon first, then move on from there.

Although the missionaries simply give out the Book of Mormon on the first go, the other works have their emphasis as well; if a person rejects the BoM, then there's obviously no point in going further.

As it is, anyone and everyone can go to LDS.org and read the scriptures for themselves anyway -> https://www.lds.org/scriptures .

 

[Jane_Doe]

There's a practical order of things. Frequently LDS missionaries are teaching someone who has some background in some Christian faith, so the authority of the Bible does not need to be established. If it does, a person is certainly encouraged to pray about it (LDS encourage prayer on all subjects). Missionaries also do give out copies of the KJV of the Bible.

The Book of Mormon is the next logical text to read, and hence it is recommended early. It's focus is bringing men to Christ, which is the first part of birthing/growing faith.

The D&C and PofGP are logical to read last, since they build on the foundation of the other two text. D&C can be difficult to get through, because it does not read like a story book, but requires historical background knowledge to understand the purpose behind each section. The PofGP is very short. Much of their material is covered in missionary discussions, things like baptismal prayer and the First Vision. I have given out paper copies of D&C and PofGP, but more commonly just give links now.

I've seen bound collections of all three together, though I don't how common that is.

Extremely common. Almost all members have it either that way (plus a Bible is a different binding) or all 4 standard works bound together. Online/ebook they are all linked on the same webpage. Cross-references are to all 4 standard works.

 

[dzheremi]

Thanks for your answers, Ironhold and Jane Doe. If I'm understanding you correctly, the D&C and POGP are not given out as a matter of course, but may be given out at some point, presumably if there has been a positive reaction to the BOM so far. Is that the case?

In searching on this topic last night before posting this thread, I found more than a few references to the idea of giving milk before meat, which I assume is tied into what Jane Doe has called the practical order of things. So because the D&C and POGP are more difficult to understand/require some background knowledge that would presumably be covered in information sessions with the missionaries, they are given out (if they are) after the BOM.

Although this creates an interesting possible scenario: as there is, in this reckoning, a kind of 'tiered' aspect to the way that the different books are presented, it is at least theoretically possible (and I have to believe at least occasionally actually occurring, based on some discussions I've had with an ex-Mormon family member) that a person could be accepting of the BOM, on the strength of their testimony of it join the LDS, and then later upon reading the other works come across things in the D&C or POGP that they could not accept. In fact, as I'm sure you know, there are some critics of the LDS who claim that the distinctive doctrines which place Mormonism in opposition to Christianity in certain theological and practical respects aren't to be found in the BOM proper, but only in these other works (and others, such as some of the material found in History of the Church, which as I understand it is not scripture for the LDS, but does contain extracts from Joseph's sermons elucidating certain doctrinal and theological points which Mormons believe), and hence by the later introduction to these other things, there is a kind of 'bait and switch' going on with potential converts.

How would you answer such a criticism, beyond obviously denying that there is anything as calculated as that going on? On one hand, I can see where the criticism comes from (as the ex-Mormon family member I've spoken to said that if she had known some of the things she would have been required to affirm as a consequence of accepting the BOM, she probably wouldn't have joined the LDS to begin with), but on the other hand I think "Well, if they're all scripture, I'd imagine that the Mormons would have converts believe them all." But I suppose it is hard to know what 'they all' are, if you're not informed of them beforehand. (Hence this thread, to see if that is actually the case or not.)

 

[Jane_Doe]

Dzheremi, the Book of Mormon's purpose is to bring men unto Christ. That is the first focus of missionary efforts. If a person is unwilling to accept Christ, missionaries will stay focused on that before moving on to other topics. That's not to sat that other topics aren't talked about, but the focus stays on having that person come to Christ.

Note: If a person downloads the LDS scripture app, all the standard works are there. This app is free and on iTunes and a bunch of other places. Speaking practically, in the US majority of people in church nowadays use the app predominately.

So because the D&C and POGP are more difficult to understand/require some background knowledge that would presumably be covered in information sessions with the missionaries, they are given out (if they are) after the BOM.

A better way to phrase this is that until a person has accepted Christ (which is the Book of Mormon's purpose), there's no point in covering more advance topics. The foundation in Christ must be laid first.

Although this creates an interesting possible scenario: as there is, in this reckoning, a kind of 'tiered' aspect to the way that the different books are presented

In a way this is not so different than the different books in the Bible: when teaching you first start in the NT Gospels. You don't start in Isaiah.

In fact, as I'm sure you know, there are some critics of the LDS who claim that the distinctive doctrines which place Mormonism in opposition to Christianity in certain theological and practical respects aren't to be found in the BOM proper, but only in these other works (and others, such as some of the material found in History of the Church, which as I understand it is not scripture for the LDS, but does contain extracts from Joseph's sermons elucidating certain doctrinal and theological points which Mormons believe), and hence by the later introduction to these other things, there is a kind of 'bait and switch' going on with potential converts.

How would you answer such a criticism, beyond obviously denying that there is anything as calculated as that going on? On one hand, I can see where the criticism comes from (as the ex-Mormon family member I've spoken to said that if she had known some of the things she would have been required to affirm as a consequence of accepting the BOM, she probably wouldn't have joined the LDS to begin with), but on the other hand I think "Well, if they're all scripture, I'd imagine that the Mormons would have converts believe them all." But I suppose it is hard to know what 'they all' are, if you're not informed of them beforehand. (Hence this thread, to see if that is actually the case or not.)

A person is welcome and invited to learn from all scripture. Nothing is hidden. But that doesn't mean a algebra student should jump into calculus-- they'd just get lost and frustrated. We start with Christ, and work from there. All are welcome to learn as much as they want. Nothing is hidden.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi, the Book of Mormon's purpose is to bring men unto Christ. That is the first focus of missionary efforts. If a person is unwilling to accept Christ, missionaries will stay focused on that before moving on to other topics. That's not to sat that other topics aren't talked about, but the focus stays on having that person come to Christ.

Hmm. In this understanding, is accepting the Book of Mormon tantamount to accepting Christ? In other words, is accepting the BOM a precondition or a sign that someone has accepted Christ? (And, as a corollary, those who do not accept the BOM I suppose would not/do not accept Christ?) What of the other works, then? Does the same understanding hold for them, or is the BOM in some sense paramount?

Note: If a person downloads the LDS scripture app, all the standard works are there. This app is free and on iTunes and a bunch of other places. Speaking practically, in the US majority of people in church nowadays use the app predominately.

Oh. That's very interesting. In my Church, we have something sorta similar: an app called "Coptic Reader", which contains not only the liturgical text, but also the hymns, psalmodies, etc. appropriate to the day's worship. I have often seen younger deacons using that, as it eliminates the possibility of getting lost flipping through pages in the book, assuming you know how to use it (I had it installed on a previous phone, but could never get a hang of its layout to use it effectively).

In a way this is not so different than the different books in the Bible: when teaching you first start in the NT Gospels. You don't start in Isaiah.

I'm not sure that this can be taken as a given, depending on the context in which the teaching is taking place, but I see the parallel you're making here. Makes sense to me.

A person is welcome and invited to learn from all scripture. Nothing is hidden. But that doesn't mean a algebra student should jump into calculus-- they'd just get lost and frustrated. We start with Christ, and work from there. All are welcome to learn as much as they want. Nothing is hidden.

I see. This is an interesting way to look at things. Thanks for providing your perspective.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hmm. In this understanding, is accepting the Book of Mormon tantamount to accepting Christ? In other words, is accepting the BOM a precondition or a sign that someone has accepted Christ? (And, as a corollary, those who do not accept the BOM I suppose would not/do not accept Christ?) What of the other works, then? Does the same understanding hold for them, or is the BOM in some sense paramount?

A person can have a testimony of Christ without the Book of Mormon. But the Book of Mormon enhances these teachings/testimony, bring one closer to Christ. That is it's purpose.

Oh. That's very interesting. In my Church, we have something sorta similar: an app called "Coptic Reader", which contains not only the liturgical text, but also the hymns, psalmodies, etc. appropriate to the day's worship. I have often seen younger deacons using that, as it eliminates the possibility of getting lost flipping through pages in the book, assuming you know how to use it (I had it installed on a previous phone, but could never get a hang of its layout to use it effectively).

I see. Our app also has all the hymns, lessons manuals, general conference talks, etc. I personally prefer doing my scripture study on a computer where I can have a million tabs open!

 

[Ironhold]

I, personally, have a gym bag full of books.

...Which I have dubbed "The Weight of Knowledge".

Whenever someone gets a little too sure of themselves and what they think they know, I invite them to try and pick it up. I do this to remind them of the fact that it takes more than just reading a single book or two to be "learned". Rather, they can fill a bag with books they've read and still have only scratched the surface of a topic.

 

[Alla27]

I am convert. Missionaries were teaching me principles of the Gospel. They were teaching me about restoration of the Gospel. If I wouldn't accept this I wouldn't accept POGP and D&C. So, there was no point to study these other scriptures at that time when I was investigating Church. I prayed to God for many days and even some nights if what they told me was true. I received an answer from God.
Now when I accepted and believe in Restored Gospel I study other scriptures. First milk, then meat as Paul said

 

[withwonderingawe]

Hmm. In this understanding, is accepting the Book of Mormon tantamount to accepting Christ? In other words, is accepting the BOM a precondition or a sign that someone has accepted Christ?

Let's clarify that with accepting the fullness of the gospel of Christ. Read a story about a minister who thought he would read the Book of Mormon to prove it wrong. The more he read it he knew it was of God, he didn't want it to be, he struggled. He took a hike in the mountains and saw a beautiful lake. As he walked to the summit he saw the whole picture of a beautiful lake, the mountain and sky above. Through the Spirit he realized this is what the Book of Mormon and the Gospel was offering him. While the lake was a beautiful view as was his knowledge of Christ there was more to be seen, a greater view and understanding.

 

[-57]

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

This is the Sunday School manual for investigators and new converts. It might answer a lot of the questions you've been having if you'd at least skim it.

I checked out your link

As an investigator I read the following from the link and realized the teaching presented is false.

Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. That is why He is called the Only Begotten Son. He inherited divine powers from His Father. From His mother He inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death. No one could take the Savior’s life from Him unless He willed it. He had power to lay it down and power to take up His body again after dying.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I checked out your link

As an investigator I read the following from the link and realized the teaching presented is false.

Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. That is why He is called the Only Begotten Son. He inherited divine powers from His Father. From His mother He inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death. No one could take the Savior’s life from Him unless He willed it. He had power to lay it down and power to take up His body again after dying.

What about this do you disagree with?

 

[Alla27]

What about this do you disagree with?

I think the part that is typed in red.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I think the part that is typed in red.

But what about that does he disagree with?

 

[Alla27]

But what about that does he disagree with?

Jesus is God He couldn't inherit anything from anybody. It is this confusing Trinity - Father, Son and Spirit are equal + all other stuff that nobody actually comprehend.

 

[Alla27]

I apologize to -57 for answering for him, I just share my guess.

 

[-57]

What about this do you disagree with?

Do you really have to ask?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Do you really have to ask?

Well I prefer not to assume I am on this forum for interfaith dialogue, after all.