What about biblical human lifespans?

[Assyrian]

Eh, I'm not too sure of Josephus. He indicates where he begins to speak "philosophically", but not where he stops.

So where does he stop, if ever? I think he believes the genealogies of Genesis 5 to be historical, because he defends the patriarch's long lifespans by appealing to pagan authors who said similar things.

The genealogies include Adam and Seth. So my conclusion is that he believed both of them to be real people. And if them, why not also Adam's sons Cain and Abel? That moves the end of "philosophical" thinking back to the end of Genesis 3, at the very least.

This, in my mind, limits "philosophical" thinking to Adam's creation and the Fall, at most. But it still puts Josephus in the "Adam lived 6,000 years ago" camp. And he seems to treat Genesis 1 as six literal days:

I'd pretty much agree with that.

My conclusion is that Josephus was what we call a YEC: he believed in six literal creation days, performed 6,000 years ago, with the creation of man from the dust and the Fall perhaps treated allegorically.

Not sure you can compare him to modern creationist. Yes he did believe in a young earth, but I don't know any YECs who would even consider taking Genesis 2&3 allegorically. He was also much more pragmatic about evidence, he accepted the long lifespans because it fitted with the evidence from other genealogies. The question is whether he would have held onto his literal interpretation of the creation days if he knew the evidence for an ancient earth. What it does show us is that Jew in the first century were much more open to allegorical interpretation of the Genesis creation accounts interpreting the creation days allegorically like Philo, and the Adam and Eve story like both Philo and Josephus. Makes you wonder why the NT writers didn't speak out against these allegorical interpretations if they are as wrong as YECs think they are.

 

[juvenissun]

Scientifically it appears clear that the human brain is both barely understood but that from what we do know we are not really using it to its full potential. We were designed for a longer life and richer life than we currently enjoy and there is a considerable underutilisation of resources going on with human beings. Occasionally geniuses come and go with perhaps a window into these extra possibilities in our humanity. But most of us live and then die having never reached our created potentials.

Very good point. Thanks.
I am also think of those overwhelm amount of functionless genes in our DNA.

It seems that the current human is "over designed".

 

[Resha Caner]

I have heard two reasons for the long lifespans. One is that the ages refer to the lifespans of eponymous tribes, cities or nations rather than specific individuals.

The other is a cultural practice of honoring people by giving them a great age.

I don't like the assumptions made to reach the 6000 years that YEC claims. There are some glaring examples of the Bible using generational references to patriarchs that preclude such calculations. So, it would seem the eponymous explanation is a possibility.

On the other hand, I also despise two things done by those who prefer weighting Genesis toward allegorical interpretations: 1) Assuming that the Hebrews always followed the practices of other ancient cultures when the tenet is expressed over and over that they were to set themselves apart, 2) Using the "ancient people thought differently" mantra to excuse what would be misrepresentation if the text is interpreted as a mix of history and symbolism. IMO it creates an environment where ancients could say anything and we would excuse it as a truth veiled in ancient mysticism. The fact is, other texts contain lies and the Bible is true and we shouldn't confuse the two.

So, the second explanation is not one I can accept.

Further, while the discussion of Josephus is interesting, he was flawed and it would be dangerous to back into a position where one claims he is a perfect representative of Scriptural intent. I'm sure there were some ancient Hebrews who took Genesis as exclusively allegorical ... and other various mixes of historical and allegorical. However, everything I've seen indicates that most took the Patriarchs as historical and the ages as literal (even if the numbers also held symbolic meaning).

I agree with some of the other comments: it is interesting that people who claim to believe in a magnificent and powerful God wouldn't consider the third possibility - that the ages are literal.

If God's going to give us bodies which can last forever, why is there difficulty accepting he gave the first men bodies which lasted up to 900 years? I mean, where is this resistance coming from?

Good question.

Well, according to "modern science" there is no known reason for cells to stop duplicating forever. They have found no clear reason for death. So there ya go. Modern Science agrees that long life is possible as the Bible reads.

I haven't studied the aging process, so this is the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the thread. Is it impossible for someone to live 900 years or more?

 

[greentwiga]

scientists have discovered a balancing act. If the body is tweaked to live longer, we die of cancer earlier. If it is tweaked to fight cancer, we die earlier of something else. At the moment, we find it impossible to live more than 130 years, and that is super rare.

 

[Roms916]

I see a lot of people here focusing on the lifespans in Genesis 5 only. There are long lifespans elsewhere in the Bible to reckon as well.

"These were the names of the sons of Levi according to their records: Gershon, Kohath and Merari. Levi lived 137 years...
The sons of Kohath were Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel. Kohath lived 133 years...
Amram married his father’s sister Jochebed, who bore him Aaron and Moses. Amram lived 137 years."
Ex 6:16, 18, 20

Job 42:16-17
"After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. And so Job died, an old man and full of years."

Jacob also mentioned the diminishing lifespan in Gen 47:
"Then Joseph brought his father Jacob in and presented him before Pharaoh. After Jacob blessed Pharaoh, Pharaoh asked him, “How old are you?” And Jacob said to Pharaoh, “The years of my pilgrimage are a hundred and thirty. My years have been few and difficult, and they do not equal the years of the pilgrimage of my fathers.” Then Jacob blessed Pharaoh and went out from his presence.
Gen 47:7-10

Aaron was 123, Num 33:39. Moses was 120 went the Lord buried him in Moab, yet was in good health, Deu 34:7. Joshua was 110 went he fell asleep. Jos 24:29

In 2 Sam 19:35, Barzillai was 80 years old and not in good shape, yet this is quite an accomplishment without modern medicine. Yet David also lived to be at least 70 years old (30 at anointing, 40 years of rule over Judah then Israel) 2 Sam 5:4. Saul lived to 72 (30 at anointing, 42 years of rule over Israel) 1 Sam 13:1 and died in battle.

 

[Aman777]

Dear Readers, The reason for our loss of almost 90% of our lifespans was the fact that Humans mixed with the descendants of the sons of God. The offspring, which is us, lives about 10% of pure Humans who were not contaminated with the DNA of the common ancestor of Apes.

Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,(Hebrew-Adam) for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

One hundred and twenty years is therefore the maximum, today. Our ancestors on the first Earth lived to be over 900 years old, but ALL were direct descendants of Adam. That's God's Truth.

In Love,
Aman

 

[juvenissun]

Biologically, what could be the natural factors that make human life shorter and shorter? What was the average life span of human before the modern medication? Was that approximately 50 in the medieval time?

Rich people ate too much meat and poor people had no meat to eat. Both can not live long.

 

[greentwiga]

Though modern man has benefits and health problems from modern life, some of the oldest known people historically (last 200 years) have been rural with little modern health benefits. With the lifespan even of them being ~120 max, it is hard to argue that the ancients lived much longer. Not every use of the terms father and son in the Bible mean literal father and son.
Thus, using the Bible to interpret the Bible, I keep the possibility open that the people mentioned lived normal lifespans, but the time gaps were much longer. Usually, I turn to other Biblical evidence to decide the matter when there are two possible interpretations.

 

[ChetSinger]

Biologically, what could be the natural factors that make human life shorter and shorter? What was the average life span of human before the modern medication? Was that approximately 50 in the medieval time?

Rich people ate too much meat and poor people had no meat to eat. Both can not live long.

I think we need to be careful when considering "average" lifespans. These are influenced by infant mortality, which is lower today than in pre-modern times.

One of the psalms, written about 3,000 years ago, describes the years of our lives as between 70 and 80. That's pretty close to our ages now, and they achieved that without modern medical techniques.

 

[juvenissun]

I think we need to be careful when considering "average" lifespans. These are influenced by infant mortality, which is lower today than in pre-modern times.

One of the psalms, written about 3,000 years ago, describes the years of our lives as between 70 and 80. That's pretty close to our ages now, and they achieved that without modern medical techniques.

So in between 3000 years ago and today, the average age should be lower. That means the average age was still decreasing after Moses.

Based on the decreasing trend from the ancient time this is not a surprising result. The key question is why does it keep decreasing since Adam.

I guess the continuously decreasing geomagnetic force around the earth could be a factor.

 

[Assyrian]

So in between 3000 years ago and today, the average age should be lower. That means the average age was still decreasing after Moses.

Based on the decreasing trend from the ancient time this is not a surprising result. The key question is why does it keep decreasing since Adam.

I guess the continuously decreasing geomagnetic force around the earth could be a factor.

Maybe because the Israelites were changing from a Babylonian custom of giving people honorific ages of a 1000 years or more to Egyptian where the longest lifespans ascribed was 110. In Psalm 90:10 Moses says their lifespan was seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty. Yet we according to extended longevity Moses Aaron and Mirian lived between 120 and 125 years. If it was an honourific title like calling an old man 'grandfather', it would have been understood and not taken literally by people at the time.

 

[ChetSinger]

So in between 3000 years ago and today, the average age should be lower. That means the average age was still decreasing after Moses.

Based on the decreasing trend from the ancient time this is not a surprising result. The key question is why does it keep decreasing since Adam.

I guess the continuously decreasing geomagnetic force around the earth could be a factor.

Myself, I'm leaning toward a common YEC explanation: genetics. The lifetimes of the first men were stable at about 900 years, and immediately after the Flood they began taking a nosedive. Could it be due to a genetic bottleneck? Since all subsequent males were descendants of Noah and his sons, whatever genetic flaws he passed on would henceforth be carried by the entire human race.

There's also an interesting YEC book called "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome", where Dr. John Sanford argues that we're slowly winding down. That is, mutations are accumulating in our DNA faster than natural selection is weeding them out.

 

[juvenissun]

Maybe because the Israelites were changing from a Babylonian custom of giving people honorific ages of a 1000 years or more to Egyptian where the longest lifespans ascribed was 110. In Psalm 90:10 Moses says their lifespan was seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty. Yet we according to extended longevity Moses Aaron and Mirian lived between 120 and 125 years. If it was an honourific title like calling an old man 'grandfather', it would have been understood and not taken literally by people at the time.

It would be interesting to know the legendary longevity of ancient people worldwide, at least among old civilizations. I know the longevity of ancestry Chinese (before 5000 BC) mounted up to somewhere over 800 years. If this near-1000 years age is world-wide common, then it SHOULD say something about what the reality is.

 

[juvenissun]

Myself, I'm leaning toward a common YEC explanation: genetics. The lifetimes of the first men were stable at about 900 years, and immediately after the Flood they began taking a nosedive. Could it be due to a genetic bottleneck? Since all subsequent males were descendants of Noah and his sons, whatever genetic flaws he passed on would henceforth be carried by the entire human race.

There's also an interesting YEC book called "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome", where Dr. John Sanford argues that we're slowly winding down. That is, mutations are accumulating in our DNA faster than natural selection is weeding them out.

It is possible. But I take all those as consequences. The cause is the change of the earth. This idea is significant to me. Because it can tie up to the place called the Garden of Eden. And, eventually, may be the true meaning of YEC can be illustrated.

 

[Assyrian]

It would be interesting to know the legendary longevity of ancient people worldwide, at least among old civilizations. I know the longevity of ancestry Chinese (before 5000 BC) mounted up to somewhere over 800 years. If this near-1000 years age is world-wide common, then it SHOULD say something about what the reality is.

Do you only look at cultures that give long life spans or do you include cultures living at the same time that had normal lifespans? What do you make of the Mesopotamian king lists from before their version of the flood where kings lived around 30,000 years?

According to wikipedia Longevity myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zuo Ci who lived during the Three Kingdoms Period was said to have lived for 300 years.
​

The three kingdom period was 220–280 AD. Certainly doesn't fit biblical longevities, but it does show the tendency for culture to ascribe long lifespans to people they revere.

 

[ChetSinger]

It would be interesting to know the legendary longevity of ancient people worldwide, at least among old civilizations. I know the longevity of ancestry Chinese (before 5000 BC) mounted up to somewhere over 800 years. If this near-1000 years age is world-wide common, then it SHOULD say something about what the reality is.

Fyi, Josephus, in Chapter 3 - The Works of Flavius Josephus, defends the long ages of the pre-Flood patriarchs by appealing to eleven pagan authors who said the same thing.

Now when Noah had lived three hundred and fifty years after the Flood, and that all that time happily, he died, having lived the number of nine hundred and fifty years.

But let no one, upon comparing the lives of the ancients with our lives, and with the few years which we now live, think that what we have said of them is false; or make the shortness of our lives at present an argument, that neither did they attain to so long a duration of life, for those ancients were beloved of God, and [lately] made by God himself; and because their food was then fitter for the prolongation of life, might well live so great a number of years: and besides, God afforded them a longer time of life on account of their virtue, and the good use they made of it in astronomical and geometrical discoveries, which would not have afforded the time of foretelling [the periods of the stars] unless they had lived six hundred years; for the great year is completed in that interval.

Now I have for witnesses to what I have said, all those that have written Antiquities, both among the Greeks and barbarians; for even Manetho, who wrote the Egyptian History, and Berosus, who collected the Chaldean Monuments, and Mochus, and Hestieus, and, besides these, Hieronymus the Egyptian, and those who composed the Phoenician History, agree to what I here say: Hesiod also, and Hecatseus, Hellanicus, and Acusilaus; and, besides these, Ephorus and Nicolaus relate that the ancients lived a thousand years. But as to these matters, let every one look upon them as he thinks fit.

 

[gluadys]

Myself, I'm leaning toward a common YEC explanation: genetics. The lifetimes of the first men were stable at about 900 years, and immediately after the Flood they began taking a nosedive. Could it be due to a genetic bottleneck? Since all subsequent males were descendants of Noah and his sons, whatever genetic flaws he passed on would henceforth be carried by the entire human race.

A genetic bottleneck could be a theoretical cause, but genetic bottlenecks leave genomic evidence and there is no evidence of such a genetic bottleneck in the human genome. There is of a much earlier one, but it would be long before Noah's time. So, just as there is no geological evidence of a world-wide flood, there is no genomic evidence of a genetic bottleneck either.

Also, a similar genetic bottleneck should exist in all other forms of life on the ark as well--coinciding in time with a genetic bottleneck in humans. This is most certainly not the case.

 

[Assyrian]

It would be interesting to know the legendary longevity of ancient people worldwide, at least among old civilizations. I know the longevity of ancestry Chinese (before 5000 BC) mounted up to somewhere over 800 years. If this near-1000 years age is world-wide common, then it SHOULD say something about what the reality is.

Do you only look at cultures that give long life spans or do you include cultures living at the same time that had normal lifespans? What do you make of the Mesopotamian king lists from before their version of the flood where kings lived around 30,000 years?

According to wikipedia Longevity myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zuo Ci who lived during the Three Kingdoms Period was said to have lived for 300 years.
The three kingdom period was 220–280 AD. Certainly doesn't fit biblical longevities, but it does show the tendency for culture to ascribe long lifespans to people they revere.

 

[juvenissun]

Do you only look at cultures that give long life spans or do you include cultures living at the same time that had normal lifespans? What do you make of the Mesopotamian king lists from before their version of the flood where kings lived around 30,000 years?

According to wikipedia Longevity myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zuo Ci who lived during the Three Kingdoms Period was said to have lived for 300 years.
​

The three kingdom period was 220–280 AD. Certainly doesn't fit biblical longevities, but it does show the tendency for culture to ascribe long lifespans to people they revere.

Today, the oldest person lives over 110 years. The average is about 70. So which one is the legendary longevity? I would say it is the one near the upper limit. And I think even one person lived that long, it is significant.

The trend of decrease in longevity is clear. The question is whether the trend continued until the advance of medicine, which is about at the time of the Industry Revolution.

Further, the advance of medicine only increases the average age. It probably has little to do with the age at the upper limit. I do believe that our life span becomes shorter after Moses.

 

[Assyrian]

Today, the oldest person lives over 110 years. The average is about 70. So which one is the legendary longevity? I would say it is the one near the upper limit. And I think even one person lived that long, it is significant.

The trend of decrease in longevity is clear. The question is whether the trend continued until the advance of medicine, which is about at the time of the Industry Revolution.

Further, the advance of medicine only increases the average age. It probably has little to do with the age at the upper limit. I do believe that our life span becomes shorter after Moses.

If normal life expectancy is 70 then it hasn't changed since Moses and Psalm 90. Moses would not have written that his generation were living into their 120s and the previous generation had lived into the 130s