Wavering Faith

[Chelsi]

God is holy. He is not the author of evil and He did not give us sin. Our earthly father chose to turn away from God. How can that be God's fault?
Who gave us sin? Nothing is a surprise to God right? He knows what's going to happen before it happens. He must have known that Adam was going to turn against him.

The problem is in misunderstanding and underestimating the nature of our autonomy. We have the right to make our own choices. That is what full personhood confers . We do not have the ability to choose consequences of those choices. And that unhappy place is where Creation finds itself now, because Adam made a spectacularly bad choice.

But because God is good and loving, He trumped the hopeless destiny we were consigned to, through the merits of Christ's death on our behalf.

Who gave us sin? Nothing is a surprise to God right? He knows what's going to happen before it happens. He must have known that Adam was going to turn against him.

 

[Chelsi]

If Adam and Eve were made to be robots who couldn't go wrong, you would say that God was arbitrary and didn't give them a chance to choose for themselves. But since they were given that ability--and blew it--the majesty of the plan of creation may be that we all have suffered the consequences and yet were considered salvagable by an extraordinary act of God.

Nothing is a surprise to God. He must have known that they're going to screw up.

 

[paul1149]

Who gave us sin? Nothing is a surprise to God right? He knows what's going to happen before it happens. He must have known that Adam was going to turn against him.

Yes, He undoubtedly knew. This is why the Bible says the Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world.

Stop and think about this. Knowing about something doesn't make you responsible for it. If it is someone else's decision, they bear responsibility. God warned Adam not to sin. He told them there would be serious consequences.

 

[Chelsi]

Are you saying that it wast Gods intention for Adam to sin?

 

[Albion]

It used to not bother me either because I thought people had a choice in life but now, I know my fate and other peoples fate is already determined.

If you're a Calvinist, you'd say so. If you lean towards the other churches--Methodist, Catholic, etc.--you'd insist that we all still have free will to choose God or reject him. The fact that he KNOWS which we will do, doesn't make him the one who decides it.

 

[paul1149]

Are you saying that it wast Gods intention for Adam to sin?

No, not at all. Back to the top - God is holy and cannot countenance sin. He hates sin for two reasons: it violates His very nature, and it harms us, whom He loves.

Let's say a person is running for high office. You know the person is bad, that he will lead the nation to ruin. You warn everyone you can about him. You tell them not to believe the hype. But the man is elected anyway. Is that your fault? No. People are free to make their own choices. And just as it works in this analogy, so did it happen with Adam: choices can affect other people as well - even people who didn't agree with the original bad choice.

Let's take a massive step back in time. Jesus and the Father are sitting on the throne. The Father says to Him, "If we go ahead with this creation plan, You understand the unimaginably high cost of bringing man back to us, don't You?"

Jesus replies, "Yes, Father. It will indeed be a high cost. But it will be so worth it. We will have what we always desired - sharing love and bliss forever with creatures made in our image. The love We have among ourselves is too great that We should contain it. We must share it, even if the initial cost is so high."

And so God created, knowing ahead of time that man would fall. He did it all out of love. He refused to compromise on giving us free will in order to protect us from consequences. His ways are often very costly, but the rewards are incalculable.


Please, meditate on these things and let them sink in. To have a faith that is pleasing you must both believe in God's power and in His goodness (Heb 11.6). The devil is a liar from the very first, and his slander against God fills the earth to this day. But we have the special revelation from God, the Bible, which tells the truth. And we have Holy Spirit who brings that truth home to us.

Jesus said that if we remain in His word we will know that truth, and it will set us free. I think Holy Spirit is drawing you deeper after all these years. And in doing so some foundational issues have been exposed that need dealing with. This is a very good thing if you stick with God even when you don't understand. This is the exercise of faith. Keep digging, meditating, reasoning. Let the truth about God sink deeper and deeper. The problem that led to the downfall of the Israelites was that they only knew God's acts, whereas Moses knew His ways - which implies knowing His character. You won't go wrong finding out about the Lord's magnificent character. It takes patience and perseverance to do so. Hunker down for the long haul.

 

[oi_antz]

It used to not bother me either because I thought people had a choice in life but now, I know my fate and other peoples fate is already determined.

God is exceedingly patient though, and all He really wants is for the world to live in a holy way so that everyone supports each other and nobody is caused to suffer. Isaiah 11:6-9 describes what He wants:

In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together;
the leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion,
and a little child will lead them all.
The cow will graze near the bear.
The cub and the calf will lie down together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
The baby will play safely near the hole of a cobra.
Yes, a little child will put its hand in a nest of deadly snakes without harm.
Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,
for as the waters fill the sea,
so the earth will be filled with people who know the Lord.

.. and yet, in order to live this way, we need to accept that we cannot just live totally the way we want to. Sometimes we will need to sacrifice something that we desire and that we can have, in order to live instead the way that God wants us to live. Fornication is an example of that sort of sacrifice. Yet, because the human knows it is able to live an unholy way, and often they are even encouraged by society to do so, it is impossible for God to allow the human to go on living forever and never coming around to be the type of person that they must be, in order that they can live forever without destroying the paradise conditions. In Genesis 6:3, God declares that the human's lifespan shall be no more than 120 years, because that is long enough. That very verse even says that His spirit grows weary from contending with the human who will not right his ways.

Plus, He did intend for Israel to be the holy nation that all other nations would look to as an example of how to live and prosper, and how to please Him so He would bless the whole world. But they too were not able to overcome the desires of the self that are ultimately too strong for many of us, and when He did bring forth Jesus to lead as Messiah, instead of recognising Him and the truthful way in which He leads, they rejected Him and tried to lead the kingdom of God in a way that made them feel best.

Do you know what though? Instead of saying to God "Father, make sure these people burn in hell for this", He said "Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing".

What's more, God knew that you and I would be tempted to confusion about all this, and would risk falling away due to the idea that God did it to punish Jesus, but He knew there is a sliver of hope that we would find out the truth about it, the real reason why Jesus was submitted to this brutal, unfair and evil treatment. That reason is that God wanted to show that He loves us so much, that He will even allow the religious leaders in that day to betray and reject Him and His dearly beloved, perfect son, so that you and I today can look at that act of sacrifice and we will know that truly, He does want to forgive us.

As St. Paul reflected on this truth, he observed "seeing as sin entered the world through one man, and sin brought death, spreading to all mankind.. how much more the life will abound that comes through the sacrifice of the one man Jesus Christ!". - And what this really means is that even though we lose our life due to sin, the life that we are given through faith in Jesus Christ is stronger than death - because we know that God loves us that much, and we feel comfortable then that truly no matter what sin we have that we feel is too great for His forgiveness, actually if we turn to Him and confess that we hate our sin, then He will forgive and accept us and teach us to overcome sin.

In the time before Jesus, worshippers were concerned with satisfying the conditions of a defined set of law, and yet this was always the negative, condemning view - that whatever we do wrong is failure and sin. Animal sacrifices would give the assurance of God's forgiveness, so we could continue to do our best to live without sin. But animals were plentiful and accessible, and sacrifice for sin became a way of life, so there was no real conviction of the gravity of our sin. Whereas now that we know Jesus has died, the blood most pure and sacred, for our sake! .. well, now we know can see the gravity of sin, that causes mankind to hate and kill God, and we know how seriously we must treat repentance so that we have not wasted His love and mercy. This is why Romans 5:15 draws the point that life given in Jesus Christ abounds much more than the transgression of Adam.

Living according to the law could not give life, it could only condemn. Whereas having faith in Jesus, knowing that God accepts us if we are attentive to learning from Him in spirit, and actively repenting as we become aware of our faults, then we are living with a conscience that is clear. We are not being condemned by God, but The Holy Spirit is telling us that He is pleased with the fact that we are obeying His teaching. Our conscience confirms this too, so in this way, we are freed from the condemnation of sin, and we are made alive in the spirit!

And they will be banished to hell, right?

I think you really should look for scriptural evidence of this idea, because I am not convinced that He wants to submit all the unsaved to everlasting torment. The final result of those who aren't saved is described as a "second death".

 

[Hospes]

If you're a Calvinist, you'd say so. If you lean towards the other churches--Methodist, Catholic, etc.--you'd insist that we all still have free will to choose God or reject him. The fact that he KNOWS which we will do, doesn't make him the one who decides it.

Just a side note and not to start debate:

Albion,
In this forum, is it fair to speak for a theological point of view you do not seem to understand, much less hold? What you have stated above is a cartoonish picture of Calvinism. If you feel the need to present another's point of view, do it in a debate forum in which you have to defend your view, not here.

 

[Hospes]

Chelsi,

You ask hard questions that require facing truths that offend our desire to be at the center of attention in God's efforts, as if he were made for us rather than the other way around.

I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)​

You see, you and I were made to know and enjoy God and in that bring him glory. Though many will teach a theology around man being God's primary focus of attention, it is not the theology of the Bible. Does he love us? Absolutely yes. Does he graciously offer eternal joy and happiness? Yes. But his ultimate goal is his glory. He acts on behalf of his name's sake.

There are theologies that will make you feel you are at the center of God's world and his final purpose is all about you. Where sin is not terrible enough to deserve wrath, so there is no coming wrath on those that choose to shun Him. Where the Garden was God's Plan A, but because Adam sinned, God had to move to Plan B of sending Jesus to redeem mankind. Where in tone, we are the ones God worships and adores, rather than God being the one we fall to the floor at the mere glimpse of his transcendent holiness and fall speechless in our worship. My God has a higher goal than me; if I were his highest goal, he wouldn't be much of person to worship.

 

[Albion]

Just a side note and not to start debate:

Albion,
In this forum, is it fair to speak for a theological point of view you do not seem to understand, much less hold?

That's correct. You do not have the exclusive right to answer the OP, even if you think you are the only one who knows the answer or knows how to frame a reply. And as you noted, you can turn to a debate forum for the exchange you are hankering to have.

 

[rockytopva]

Build... Your.... Faith....

 

[BukiRob]

(I've been posting on different forms hoping to get some answers, so ignore the Matt slick comment, unless you just wanna look it up)
Hey everyone, I'm Chelsi and I've been a Christain all my life. Born and raised in the church. However, I feel like I haven't taken on the full responsibility of a christain until a few months ago. Before I would do basic Christain people things such as go to church, sing in the chior, try to be a good person, ect. Recently I've started going deeper with all of that and trying to establish a deeper connection with God and as I read the bible, some frightening questions have come to mind! The questions in my mind for the past few weeks have been "If God knows our beginning and end, why would he allow people to be evil and be sent to hell?", "Why did God create things like evilness and temptation for us if he knew we were going to give in in the first place?", " God is ALL KNOWING, so why would he create some people to put in hell and some in heaven if he loves us so much"? "Why does he allow suffering of innocent people, ESPECIALLY children? People say without no suffering there's no compassion...why didn't he just make us with some compassion instead of hurting people for no reason?" Basically to sum it up " why didn't God make us all perfect so he wouldn't have to send anyone to hell? What is the point in making us evil? why would you create sin so that you could create a son to suffer in agonizing pain that you created? Why does everything have to be done the hard way?" Now that I'm trying to get a deeper connection with God, it seems like we're even more far apart. I'm looking for answers and all the wrong things are popping up. I read this article by the creator of this website "Mark Slick" and it was the worst one that I've come across. It's so bad that it made me create an account here to maybe try to talk to him and see other people's opinion. The title of it is "Why should God make people knowing they are going to Hell forever?" . Anyway, I've loved and believed in God all my life, and I don't want that to change. These life altering question literally make me break down in tears when I think about them. It makes me feel like I haven't been serving the God I thought I have all my life. Would my loving, understanding, caring, gentle, all knowing God really create something knowing that it's going to hell, knowing that He's hurting people, knowing that it isn't fair? I just need answers. And please don't say because He can. That isn't an answer. It's 2:00 a.m. and I'm on a Christain discussion board, this is something that I never thought I would be doing. I'm desperate for an answer. I feel bad for questioning God also, because all my life I've been told I was wrong to do so and I believe everything is in his plan. I also feel very alone and frightened, and all I want to do is feel closer to God. He's all I have. But how could I do that with all of these questions weighing on my mind? I just need some help.

The first error you make is blaming G-d for the suffering in this world.

G-d created this world and placed man in it and it was called "Good" G-d's version of "good" would be our version of awe inspiring beauty. Man was given dominion over the planet. He handed that dominion over to enemy.

Our free will means that we have the ability to act on the inclination to do good AND the inclination to do evil. Suffering that you cite is a result of mankind's sin, corruption and greed. Blaming G-d for not allowing man to act on his free will essentially takes away free will.

Place the blame where it belongs.. ON MANKIND.

The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness. Psalms 103:8

Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving-kindness and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations." Ex 34:7

You can not have free will if G-d does not allow you the FREEDOM to choose what you will do with your life. Because of mankind's sinful nature MANY reject G-d anointing themselves as the ruler of all they can lay their hands upon. As a result evil runs rampant in this world.

G-d is a just G-d and for him to reward evil with good would not be in keeping with his nature of upholding justice. Yes there is mercy available but it requires that the individual come to him and repent. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[dcalling]

But, God is all powerful, he controls everything right? So why did he even make us even think about defying him? Why would he make it so he knows that we would mess up?

I wonder where in Bible it says God is all powerful. God is very powerful, God is the most powerful, but nothing is all powerful, all powerful defies logic. I only need one example to show that God is not all powerful, i.e. God can't kill himself.

God is the most powerful, and most pure. However when God create man with free will, the very meaning of free will itself means God has willingly given up some control.

God is still, and always in control. Whatever happened in this life is only temporary, and we choose if we follow God or perish.