Wavering Faith

[Chelsi]

(I've been posting on different forms hoping to get some answers, so ignore the Matt slick comment, unless you just wanna look it up)
Hey everyone, I'm Chelsi and I've been a Christain all my life. Born and raised in the church. However, I feel like I haven't taken on the full responsibility of a christain until a few months ago. Before I would do basic Christain people things such as go to church, sing in the chior, try to be a good person, ect. Recently I've started going deeper with all of that and trying to establish a deeper connection with God and as I read the bible, some frightening questions have come to mind! The questions in my mind for the past few weeks have been "If God knows our beginning and end, why would he allow people to be evil and be sent to hell?", "Why did God create things like evilness and temptation for us if he knew we were going to give in in the first place?", " God is ALL KNOWING, so why would he create some people to put in hell and some in heaven if he loves us so much"? "Why does he allow suffering of innocent people, ESPECIALLY children? People say without no suffering there's no compassion...why didn't he just make us with some compassion instead of hurting people for no reason?" Basically to sum it up " why didn't God make us all perfect so he wouldn't have to send anyone to hell? What is the point in making us evil? why would you create sin so that you could create a son to suffer in agonizing pain that you created? Why does everything have to be done the hard way?" Now that I'm trying to get a deeper connection with God, it seems like we're even more far apart. I'm looking for answers and all the wrong things are popping up. I read this article by the creator of this website "Mark Slick" and it was the worst one that I've come across. It's so bad that it made me create an account here to maybe try to talk to him and see other people's opinion. The title of it is "Why should God make people knowing they are going to Hell forever?" . Anyway, I've loved and believed in God all my life, and I don't want that to change. These life altering question literally make me break down in tears when I think about them. It makes me feel like I haven't been serving the God I thought I have all my life. Would my loving, understanding, caring, gentle, all knowing God really create something knowing that it's going to hell, knowing that He's hurting people, knowing that it isn't fair? I just need answers. And please don't say because He can. That isn't an answer. It's 2:00 a.m. and I'm on a Christain discussion board, this is something that I never thought I would be doing. I'm desperate for an answer. I feel bad for questioning God also, because all my life I've been told I was wrong to do so and I believe everything is in his plan. I also feel very alone and frightened, and all I want to do is feel closer to God. He's all I have. But how could I do that with all of these questions weighing on my mind? I just need some help.

 

[Hospes]

Hi Chelsi.
There are a number of things about the nature of God and man that come to mind, some of which we find hard to accept because is offends our self-importance. I'll touch on one.

As creator, God is not obligated to his creation. He brought all into existence. We find this offensive because we want to be autonomous, independent, self-actualized beings. If I were a potter, you would think nothing of me making decisions on what I do with my pottery creations. The reason it offends us to think of God as a potter is we want to be more than pots; we want to be self-existent. We are not and it is a hard pill to swallow. It truly is humble-pie.

 

[Chelsi]

Hi Chelsi.
There are a number of things about the nature of God and man that come to mind, some of which we find hard to accept because is offends our self-importance. I'll touch on one.

As creator, God is not obligated to his creation. He brought all into existence. We find this offensive because we want to be autonomous, independent, self-actualized beings. If I were a potter, you would think nothing of me making decisions on what I do with my pottery creations. The reason it offends us to think of God as a potter is we want to be more than pots; we want to be self-existent. We are not and it is a hard pill to swallow. It truly is humble-pie.

I guess I get it now. It just wasn't the awnser I really want to hear.

 

[Albion]

We might also point out that, according to the Bible and standard Christian thinking, God did create Man as good and there was no evil in him. Then Man used his God-given will to defy God, which caused what we call "the Fall." It affects all of us who are humans now. So if God set things into motion, we can hardly ask him to create anew, from scratch, each generation...not anymore than he re-creates the universe every season.

 

[Hospes]

I guess I get it now. It just wasn't the awnser I really want to hear.

Maybe I can tell you some of what you may want to hear: because God is not obligated to you and I, the goodness he does show is pure grace. He owes us nothing, but he sacrificed himself to give us adoption as his sons and daughters. To go from a potter's pot to become a potter's child is no small feat of power. And he grants it to all who believe the Gospel.

Grace, much grace, to you.

 

[Chelsi]

We might also point out that, according to the Bible and standard Christian thinking, God did create Man as good and there was no evil in him. Then Man used his God-given will to defy God, which caused what we call "the Fall." It affects all of us who are humans now. So if God set things into motion, we can hardly ask him to create anew, from scratch, each generation...not anymore than he re-creates the universe every season.

But, God is all powerful, he controls everything right? So why did he even make us even think about defying him? Why would he make it so he knows that we would mess up?

 

[Chelsi]

Maybe I can tell you some of what you may want to hear: because God is not obligated to you and I, the goodness he does show is pure grace. He owes us nothing, but he sacrificed himself to give us adoption as his sons and daughters. To go from a potter's pot to become a potter's child is no small feat of power. And he grants it to all who believe the Gospel.

Grace, much grace, to you.

This is basically saying because he can. I'm not really saying he owes us anything. From my understanding, we are Gods children, but there are some children he created that he knows we're going to be good and some bad. He already knew which ones were going to heaven and which were going to hell. But it doesn't have to be that way. He made it that way. He created these people to be bad because he knew that he made them just to go to hell. But I guess it's like you said, he can do what he wants with us.

Chelsi, Today at 2:38 AMEditReport
#1+ QuoteReply

 

[Albion]

But, God is all powerful, he controls everything right? So why did he even make us even think about defying him? Why would he make it so he knows that we would mess up?

He could have created beings without free will and intelligence. We have plenty of them in other species, after all. But he created Man to be endowed with the "image and likeness" of himself! That means that we humans were given reasoning properties and immortality, but the more latitude that any being has, the more the possibility of misusing it as well as using it for good. Adam and Eve chose badly. Should God reverse his plan of creation because of that? What he DID do, was to offer a remedy, and one not all that simple. He became one of his own creatures and suffered the penalty for Adam's sins and all the rest of those committed since.

He created these people to be bad

This is incorrect. It may be the main reason you are having trouble with this issue.

 

[Hospes]

This is basically saying because he can. I'm not really saying he owes us anything. From my understanding, we are Gods children, but there are some children he created that he knows we're going to be good and some bad. He already knew which ones were going to heaven and which were going to hell. But it doesn't have to be that way. He made it that way. He created these people to be bad because he knew that he made them just to go to hell. But I guess it's like you said, he can do what he wants with us.

But the Bible does not teach we are all his children. Those who believe in the Gospel become children, those that do not have no more real life than a clay pot.

 

[paul1149]

God is all powerful, he controls everything right?

Hi Chelsi,
Rom. 8.28 says God "works" all things for the good. He is not the author of evil. He created all things "good", and man was "very good", back in Genesis.

One of the things I have learned is that God does not change His mind. Paul puts it this way in Romans: "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". When Adam fell in the Garden, God could have pulled the plug on the whole thing. He owes us nothing. But ending it all would have proved nothing. The devil's slander against God would have echoed down the ages.

Instead He took it in His stride, and implemented His plan. It was a plan that would establish an eternal kingdom that cannot be overthrown, because it is based on love working in the heart. But to do this necessarily meant that man would have to be allowed to make his choices, including his mistakes, and reap all the pain of those choices. This is what free will is all about.

God is not to blame for the mess the world is in. He has allowed it, because He has a higher redemptive purpose to it. Thus the world is in birth pangs, say the Gospels and Epistles. It's very painful now, but afterward the pain will be forgotten and the joy will be permanent.

 

[Chelsi]

He could have created beings without free will and intelligence. We have plenty of them in other species, after all. But he created Man to be endowed with the "image and likeness" of himself! That means that we humans were given reasoning properties and immortality, but the more latitude that any being has, the more the possibility of misusing it as well as using it for good. Adam and Eve chose badly. Should God reverse his plan of creation because of that? What he DID do, was to offer a remedy, and one not all that simple. He became one of his own creatures and suffered the penalty for Adam's sins and all the rest of those committed since.


This is incorrect. It may be the main reason you are having trouble with this issue.

God knows our end before our beginning right? He knew that these people would use their free will to defy him. He knew that Adam would sin when he created him. Hitler, for example, God knew Hitler was going to kill all of those people when he made him. He knew that he was gonna be banished to hell. So why even create something like that , knowing that they're a bad seed?

 

[Albion]

God knows our end before our beginning right? He knew that these people would use their free will to defy him. He knew that Adam would sin when he created him. Hitler, for example, God knew Hitler was going to kill all of those people when he made him. He knew that he was gonna be banished to hell. So why even create something like that , knowing that they're a bad seed?

Perhaps because he envisioned a legion of humans who had been given the chance (if Adam and Eve had not been given the opportunity to choose, I suspect you'd be saying they were not allowed a free choice of their destiny) and, having suffered the consequences of failure, would be redeemed! That's not a bad scenario if you ask me.

 

[Chelsi]

Hi Chelsi,
Rom. 8.28 says God "works" all things for the good. He is not the author of evil. He created all things "good", and man was "very good", back in Genesis.

One of the things I have learned is that God does not change His mind. Paul puts it this way in Romans: "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". When Adam fell in the Garden, God could have pulled the plug on the whole thing. He owes us nothing. But ending it all would have proved nothing. The devil's slander against God would have echoed down the ages.

Instead He took it in His stride, and implemented His plan. It was a plan that would establish an eternal kingdom that cannot be overthrown, because it is based on love working in the heart. But to do this necessarily meant that man would have to be allowed to make his choices, including his mistakes, and reap all the pain of those choices. This is what free will is all about.

God is not to blame for the mess the world is in. He has allowed it, because He has a higher redemptive purpose to it. Thus the world is in birth pangs, say the Gospels and Epistles. It's very painful now, but afterward the pain will be forgotten and the joy will be permanent.

Then who is the author of evil? Why did God even give us sin if he knows it would send us to hell. Everything doesn't have to be so complex, he created it to be like that.

 

[Albion]

Then who is the author of evil?

Satan.

Why did God even give us sin if he knows it would send us to hell.

Evil is the absence of good. It doesn't have a positive nature in itself.

Everything doesn't have to be so complex, he created it to be like that.

This doesn't bother me especially. The things of God are OF COURSE not entirely understandable by us mortals at this time. That's why we have revelation--the Bible. It gives us what we need to know here and now. The fuller understanding will come in the afterlife.

 

[Chelsi]

Perhaps because he envisioned a legion of humans who had been given the chance (if Adam and Eve had not been given the opportunity to choose, I suspect you'd be saying they were not allowed a free choice of their destiny) and, having suffered the consequences of failure, would be redeemed! That's not a bad scenario if you ask me.

Huh?

 

[Albion]

Huh?

If Adam and Eve were made to be robots who couldn't go wrong, you would say that God was arbitrary and didn't give them a chance to choose for themselves. But since they were given that ability--and blew it--the majesty of the plan of creation may be that we all have suffered the consequences and yet were considered salvagable by an extraordinary act of God.

 

[Chelsi]

If Adam and Eve were made to be robots who couldn't go wrong, you would say that God was arbitrary and didn't give them a chance to choose for themselves. But since they were given that ability--and blew it--the majesty of the plan of creation may be that we all have suffered the consequences and yet were considered salvagable by an extraordinary act of God.

 

[paul1149]

Then who is the author of evil? Why did God even give us sin if he knows it would send us to hell. Everything doesn't have to be so complex, he created it to be like that.

God is holy. He is not the author of evil and He did not give us sin. Our earthly father chose to turn away from God. How can that be God's fault?

The problem is in misunderstanding and underestimating the nature of our autonomy. We have the right to make our own choices. That is what full personhood confers . We do not have the ability to choose consequences of those choices. And that unhappy place is where Creation finds itself now, because Adam made a spectacularly bad choice.

But because God is good and loving, He trumped the hopeless destiny we were consigned to, through the merits of Christ's death on our behalf.

 

[Chelsi]

He could have created beings without free will and intelligence. We have plenty of them in other species, after all. But he created Man to be endowed with the "image and likeness" of himself! That means that we humans were given reasoning properties and immortality, but the more latitude that any being has, the more the possibility of misusing it as well as using it for good. Adam and Eve chose badly. Should God reverse his plan of creation because of that? What he DID do, was to offer a remedy, and one not all that simple. He became one of his own creatures and suffered the penalty for Adam's sins and all the rest of those committed since.


This is incorrect. It may be the main reason you are having trouble with this issue.

But the Bible does not teach we are all his children. Those who believe in the Gospel become children, those that do not have no more real life than a clay pot.

And they will be banished to hell, right?

 

[Chelsi]

Satan.
Why would God allow satan to be like he is. A lot of people blame things on satan, but he can't do anything God will allow him to do

Evil is the absence of good. It doesn't have a positive nature in itself.
But what about sin?


This doesn't bother me especially. The things of God are OF COURSE not entirely understandable by us mortals at this time. That's why we have revelation--the Bible. It gives us what we need to know here and now. The fuller understanding will come in the afterlife.

It used to not bother me either because I thought people had a choice in life but now, I know my fate and other peoples fate is already determined.