Water on Mars!

[DogmaHunter]

I mean a mechanism for why life should start.

"why"? In what sense?

Let's take mountains as an example, to make it extra clear.
We know of geological mechanisms that results in mountains. Plate tectonics, vulcanism, etc.

Where's the "why" in this process?

 

[lesliedellow]

It does at least set out what it is that we need to determine, to be able to work out the probability of life elsewhere. As the years (and centuries) roll by, we'll tick off the variables, bit by bit

Even that might be a bit doubtful. I can't think of any other equation in physics, which is just a string of constants multiplied together.

 

[Jimmy D]

Sorry if it came out that way, but I also work in marketing
aside from full time sales.

No problem, my mistake, the joys of message boards.

 

[SkyWriting]

"why"? In what sense?
Let's take mountains as an example, to make it extra clear.
We know of geological mechanisms that results in mountains. Plate tectonics, vulcanism, etc.
Where's the "why" in this process?

Check for yourself:

Why do mountains form?
Why do plates move? – Internet Geography
Why are there volcanoes? Why do they erupt? | Volcano World

So....why does life form?
How do minerals benefit from becoming your bones?
Why would life form on the moon?
Mars
Venus
anywhere.

 

[Oafman]

Even that might be a bit doubtful. I can't think of any other equation in physics, which is just a string of constants multiplied together.

I appreciate that we have plenty of work to do! But I don't think any of those constants are beyond us, from where we're sitting. Accurate assessments of them may always be difficult, but for the Drake equation to start working, we just need an idea of the size of the numbers

 

[SkyWriting]

I appreciate that we have plenty of work to do! But I don't think any of those constants are beyond us, from where we're sitting. Accurate assessments of them may always be difficult, but for the Drake equation to start working, we just need an idea of the size of the numbers

I don't need any accuracy.
Just plug in some random numbers, and give us a best case scenario.
What pie-in-the-sky combination would "push" life into existence?

 

[Oafman]

I don't need any accuracy.
Just plug in some random numbers, and give us a best case scenario.
What pie-in-the-sky combination would "push" life into existence?

We don't need to know if the probability is 1 in 1 billion, or 1 in 10 billion. We need to know if it's 1 in 1 million or 1 in 1 trillion. Rounding is fine for our purposes. We just need to know the exponents, and we can begin to at least estimate them as we get better at analysing other star systems.

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't need any accuracy.
Just plug in some random numbers, and give us a best case scenario.
What pie-in-the-sky combination would "push" life into existence?

What is the point of making an estimate when there is, as yet, insufficient grounds for assigning a meaningful number to at least one of the factors?

 

[SkyWriting]

What is the point of making an estimate when there is, as yet, insufficient grounds for assigning a meaningful number to at least one of the factors?

They call them theories or models.
It's quite common.

 

[SkyWriting]

We don't need to know if the probability is 1 in 1 billion, or 1 in 10 billion. We need to know if it's 1 in 1 million or 1 in 1 trillion. Rounding is fine for our purposes. We just need to know the exponents, and we can begin to at least estimate them as we get better at analysing other star systems.

There is no probability. Create a model that suggests why life would form.
What factors are pushing rock to become life? What forces are at play?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Check for yourself:

Why do mountains form?
Why do plates move? – Internet Geography
Why are there volcanoes? Why do they erupt? | Volcano World

So....why does life form?
How do minerals benefit from becoming your bones?
Why would life form on the moon?
Mars
Venus
anywhere.

Hmmm.

The questions you linked, all refer to the mechanisms of how mountains form.
While the "why" you used in the life questions, seems to be more like a "why" in the sense of purpose or intention. This "why" implies agency, while the "why" of the mountains only refers to a mechanism or process.


Can you explicitly confirm if you mean "why" in the sense of purpose/intention, or "why" in the sense of mechanism / process?

You also confused me with that first question a couple posts back:
"I mean a mechanism for why life should start"

You don't seem to be asking about a mechanism or process. You seem to be asking for a reason. A purpose or intention.

 

[Ophiolite]

They call them theories or models.
It's quite common.

No. the Drake equation is not a model. The Drake equation is a meeting agenda. When the young Frank Drake convened a meeting on the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, back in1961 at Green Bank observatory, he needed something to give structure to the meeting. The famous equation was the result.

It has since been usurped by a multitude of researchers, science popularisers and commentators to push their individual views on how common or rare, intelligent civlisations are.

Possibly, when all the terms are well defined - certainly much better than at present - we can begin to treat it as descriptive model. We are not there yet.

 

[SkyWriting]

No. the Drake equation is not a model. The Drake equation is a meeting agenda. When the young Frank Drake convened a meeting on the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, back in 1961 at Green Bank observatory, he needed something to give structure to the meeting. The famous equation was the result. It has since been usurped by a multitude of researchers, science popularizers and commentators to push their individual views on how common or rare, intelligent civilizations are. Possibly, when all the terms are well defined - certainly much better than at present - we can begin to treat it as descriptive model. We are not there yet.

We will find it hard for us to move forward ignoring what others publish.

As many observers have pointed out, the Drake equation is a very simple model that does not include potentially relevant parameters,[16] and many changes and modifications to the equation have been proposed. One line of modification, for example, attempts to account for the uncertainty inherent in many of the terms.
The Drake Equation (pdf)

 

[Jimmy D]

There is no probability. Create a model that suggests why life would form.
What factors are pushing rock to become life? What forces are at play?

Is it not possible that it was nothing more than a series of chemical reactions (however improbable it may seem without knowing the conditions)? We know organic compounds can occur naturally, even in space....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2982172/

 

[SkyWriting]

Hmmm.

The questions you linked, all refer to the mechanisms of how mountains form.
While the "why" you used in the life questions, seems to be more like a "why" in the sense of purpose or intention. This "why" implies agency, while the "why" of the mountains only refers to a mechanism or process.


Can you explicitly confirm if you mean "why" in the sense of purpose/intention, or "why" in the sense of mechanism / process?

You also confused me with that first question a couple posts back:
"I mean a mechanism for why life should start"

You don't seem to be asking about a mechanism or purpose. You seem to be asking for a reason. A purpose or intention.

You asked me to clarify. I did exactly that on your chosen topics.
Why do mountains form?
Why do plates move? – Internet Geography
Why are there volcanoes? Why do they erupt? | Volcano World

What chemical mechanisms point toward the formation of life?
Even if all of the right variables had allowed for a perfect, inhabitable planet, why would life form?
The second important question of General Biology: “How and why would life form in the universe?”
What is the scientific reason life exists, or what scientific laws have "pushed" life into existence, on this one planet?
Scientifically speaking, What is the Purpose of Life?
Why would life form from non-living matter?
For what reason might it form?
It seems to have infinite complexity and amazing adaptability.
What is pushing for that to happen?
Why does it fight against all efforts to kill it?
What is motivating life to keep on, keeping on?

 

[SkyWriting]

Is it not possible that it was nothing more than a series of chemical reactions (however improbable it may seem without knowing the conditions)? We know organic compounds can occur naturally, even in space.

Sure. Which ones point to life?
Do you have enough results
to work with? Do we need to
dig up all of Mars to find more
data points?

 

[DogmaHunter]

You asked me to clarify. I did exactly that on your chosen topics.
Why do mountains form?
Why do plates move? – Internet Geography
Why are there volcanoes? Why do they erupt? | Volcano World

But, as I've said, your clarification wasn't clear.

Which is why I asked to be explicit. Which you didn't do, for some reason.
It would be easier, if you would just answer the question:
1. "why" in the sense of mechanism / process
or
2. "why" in the sense reason, purpose, intention

Even if all of the right variables had allowed for a perfect, inhabitable planet, why would life form?

See, again, I see ambuigity in the formulation of this question.
Your insistence on the word "why", is confusing.

Are you asking about what are the causal factors that lead to the formation of life? Are you asking about the process by which that happens?
Or are you asking a different "why" question?

The second important question of General Biology: “How and why would life form in the universe?”

See, this is the reason why it continues to be confusing.
Now, you literally are asking BOTH the "how" and "why"?
This leads me to conclude that you indeed mean "why" in the sense of reason, purpose or intentention.

Assuming that is the case, then at this point I'm going to ask you how you determined that to be a valid question?

Because, off course, it's a loaded question. By asking what the purpose is of something, you are assuming / implying that there even is a purpose to begin with.

What is the scientific reason life exists, or what scientific laws have "pushed" life into existence, on this one planet?

This is better.
My answer is that I don't know. Science is working on trying to solve that puzzle.
Seeing as how life is fundamentally chemistry, I'ld assume the answer is some chemical process.

Scientifically speaking, What is the Purpose of Life?

Scientifically speaking, why do you beat your wife?

Why would life form from non-living matter?
For what reason might it form?
It seems to have infinite complexity and amazing adaptability.
What is pushing for that to happen?
Why does it fight against all efforts to kill it?
What is motivating life to keep on, keeping on?

How did you determine that there is a purpose or reason, to begin with?

It's like asking "what is the purpose of ice?" or "what is the purpose of a mountain"? Or "what does purple taste like"?

It's an invalid question.
Ice is the result of water + freezing temperature.
Mountains are the result of tectonic activity.

The "why" question, is not a sensible question.
We can ask about what the chain of events was that lead to the formation of mountains. That's a sensible question.
Given that mountains exist, we can also ask about how their presence affects weather patters. That's also a sensible question.

Asking about the "purpose" of mountains, is not a sensible question.

 

[Jimmy D]

Sure. Which ones point to life?
Do you have enough results
to work with? Do we need to
dig up all of Mars to find more
data points?

I agree, we need to get to work, I expect and hope one day we'll have the answers.

 

[SkyWriting]

I agree, we need to get to work, I expect and hope one day we'll have the answers.

Given our environment, if an answer was there, it should be pretty obvious.

 

[SkyWriting]

But, as I've said, your clarification wasn't clear.
Which is why I asked to be explicit. Which you didn't do, for some reason.

Not reason, purpose or intention.

What causes life to form?
What causes life to continue?
What chemical properties suggest life should form?
What physical properties suggest life would form?
Why would life form from non-living matter?
For what reason might it form?
It seems to have infinite complexity and amazing adaptability.
What is pushing for that to happen?
Why does it fight against all efforts to kill it?
What is motivating life to keep on, keeping on?