Was the early church liturgical?

[Leevo]

I am going to post this thread in other Christian Communities forums because I want the views from all sides. Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.

I am just wondering if the early church was liturgical or not? It doesn't seem to me that it was. What did the early church fathers do for worship? How did the apostles set up their church's? Can you give me evidence and cite your sources for your view?

 

[Reader Antonius]

Ahem...well, you might be walking into quite the debating (as least from the Protestants).

I'm a former Baptist, and one of the discoveries I made was that ritual and liturgical prayer was fundamental to the Early Church. I learned this by reading the Fathers themselves, who are our witnesses of the early Church's faith in life. I soon discovered that they were also deeply sacramental, episcopal-hierarchical, Marian, and even Papal. All in a primitive form of course, but the essentials of Catholicism were all there. This combined with Biblical evidence led me back home to the Church.

It would be a monumental task to cite all the evidence of the Early Church's liturgical beliefs and practices. The span is just too wide to even attempt it.

Now, if you wanted some specific examples (e.g. the Eucharist, baptism, etc.), that would be easier to cite. Suffice for now these links:

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/06/christian-worship-in-the-first-century/

http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitWEC.jsp

Put simply: the evidence for liturgy being central to Early Christianity is overwhelming. It is virtually self-evident for anyone with eyes to see. Deo gratias!

 

[Leevo]

Ahem...well, you might be walking into quite the debating (as least from the Protestants).

I'm a former Baptist, and one of the discoveries I made was that ritual and liturgical prayer was fundamental to the Early Church. I learned this by reading the Fathers themselves, who are our witnesses of the early Church's faith in life. I soon discovered that they were also deeply sacramental, episcopal-hierarchical, Marian, and even Papal. All in a primitive form of course, but the essentials of Catholicism were all there. This combined with Biblical evidence led me back home to the Church.

It would be a monumental task to cite all the evidence of the Early Church's liturgical beliefs and practices. The span is just too wide to even attempt it.

Now, if you wanted some specific examples (e.g. the Eucharist, baptism, etc.), that would be easier to cite. Suffice for now these links:

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/06/christian-worship-in-the-first-century/

http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitWEC.jsp

Put simply: the evidence for liturgy being central to Early Christianity is overwhelming. It is virtually self-evident for anyone with eyes to see. Deo gratias!

hey man, thanks for the reply. i hope that i get some good arguments from both sides. i am currently stuck in between protestantism and catholicism and this question will be the straw that breaks the camels' back one way or the other for me based upon the answers i get and the evidence presented. could you refer me to some writings to read from church fathers i really only need a few but the ones from the earliest fathers would be best if you know of some?

 

[Tigger45]

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2:47

 

[Reader Antonius]

hey man, thanks for the reply. could you refer me to some writings to read from church fathers?

I would start with the Apostolic Fathers. Then move on to the Ante-Nicene Fathers. You will find most of the information you are seeking there. Just go to the sources themselves.

Again, to attempt to quote or cite the Fathers on liturgy is a monumental task for anyone. Best simply to go to the Fathers themselves. Trust me, you won't regret it.

 

[Leevo]

I would start with the Apostolic Fathers. Then move on to the Ante-Nicene Fathers. You will find most of the information you are seeking there. Just go to the sources themselves.

Again, to attempt to quote or cite the Fathers on liturgy is a monumental task for anyone. Best simply to go to the Fathers themselves. Trust me, you won't regret it.

Yeah, I am okay with not having any quotes. Really would just like recommendations on good reads. thanks again.

 

[kit]

The real question is what evidence is there that early Christian worship wasn't liturgical. Christian worship carried over from Jewish worship. That was liturgical. Then of course those very early fathers give no hint that there was some shift from year 40 to 80 to 120. When Jesus sent his apostles ahead to prepare for the Passover it wasn't because there was some haphazard anything goes approach to worship.

 

[Colin]

The first written account of the celebration of the Eucharist outside of the New Testament are the words of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) .

He wrote : " No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.


We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Saviour became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.


The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said:This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.


On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.


On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.


The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.


We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration. "

 

[mark46]

The first written account of the celebration of the Eucharist outside of the New Testament are the words of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) .

He wrote : " No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.


We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Saviour became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.


The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said:This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.


On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.


On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.


The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.


We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration. "

This answers many questions. The centrality of baptism, eucharist, prayer and a weekly liturgy is clear.

What is much less clear is the role of the priest in this liturgy.

 

[tadoflamb]

I am going to post this thread in other Christian Communities forums because I want the views from all sides. Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.

I am just wondering if the early church was liturgical or not? It doesn't seem to me that it was. What did the early church fathers do for worship? How did the apostles set up their church's? Can you give me evidence and cite your sources for your view?

Here's one that popped out at me one day:

They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. (Act 2:42)

(emphasis mine)

 

[WarriorAngel]

So if i were to go look for the Liturgy of ST James - it would help a lot.
The first Mass kept on record by the Apostle St James...
which you will find the EO will tell you of that as well.

IF you need me to find it - i will get it.
It exists.

 

[Dialogist]

So if i were to go look for the Liturgy of ST James - it would help a lot.
The first Mass kept on record by the Apostle St James...
which you will find the EO will tell you of that as well.

IF you need me to find it - i will get it.
It exists.

The Liturgy of St. James is still celebrated in the Orthodox Church, specifically on the Feast of St. James and in Jerusalem on the Sunday after Christmas. It is a very LONG service. There is a history of it here on the orthodoxwiki.org website.

There is a version of the text of the Liturgy translated into English here.

If you are really interested, you can watch a 2-hour video of the Service in Church Slavonic here.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Liturgy of St. James is still celebrated in the Orthodox Church, specifically on the Feast of St. James and in Jerusalem on the Sunday after Christmas. It is a very LONG service. There is a history of it here on the orthodoxwiki.org website.

There is a version of the text of the Liturgy translated into English here.

If you are really interested, you can watch a 2-hour video of the Service in Church Slavonic here.

Thanks for doing the leg work.

Also in scriptures - the Apostles preached in the synagogues.
Why?
Because the lay out is taken from the Judaic practices - because - this was a foreshadow to the Mass.
As was everything Judaic... preparing the world for the Mass - [liturgy] actually began in Abraham's time.
Melchezedeh was the first [gentile] to offer up bread and wine...
which was also a foreshadow towards Mass [The Eucharist]

For scriptures tell us Jesus was the first Priest of the line of Melchezedeh.

The Mass [Liturgy] wasnt created later - but followed a long line of prophecy.
It wasnt until the Jews kept the Apostles and all their followers [Jews who converted] out of the synagogues - that they took the Mass with them where ever they went.
That included homes still - but eventually going underground to the catacombs where altars of the 1st century Christians are still standing today.

 

[WarriorAngel]

As you can see - the combination of prophecy involved both gentiles and Jew - the 1st offering of bread and wine came from a gentile which was practiced during the synagogue era...by the Apostles via the fulfillment in Christ's Last Supper - Passion, Death and Resurrection.
IE - everything was basically the same in practice to the synagogues [reading the ancient texts] but the addition of the Eucharist followed.
This was to prophecy that all would come to the Mass... and that it was important that both Gentile and Jew would show prophecy because both would be His people.

 

[Rhamiel]

how old is the Liturgy of St. James?
I have seen some say it was from A.D. 60
is this date from tradition or is it backed up by textual evidence?

 

[mark46]

Thanks for doing the leg work.

Also in scriptures - the Apostles preached in the synagogues.
Why?
Because the lay out is taken from the Judaic practices - because - this was a foreshadow to the Mass.
As was everything Judaic... preparing the world for the Mass - [liturgy] actually began in Abraham's time.
Melchezedeh was the first [gentile] to offer up bread and wine...
which was also a foreshadow towards Mass [The Eucharist]

For scriptures tell us Jesus was the first Priest of the line of Melchezedeh.

The Mass [Liturgy] wasnt created later - but followed a long line of prophecy.
It wasnt until the Jews kept the Apostles and all their followers [Jews who converted] out of the synagogues - that they took the Mass with them where ever they went.
That included homes still - but eventually going underground to the catacombs where altars of the 1st century Christians are still standing today.

The apostles did NOT teach in synagogues. They preached in The Temple, the one Temple where God resided, and where Jews gathered four times a year for worship.

 

[brewmama]

The apostles did NOT teach in synagogues. They preached in The Temple, the one Temple where God resided, and where Jews gathered four times a year for worship.

They certainly did go to synagogues. It's all over the place in Acts.

 

[mark46]

They certainly did go to synagogues. It's all over the place in Acts.

There were indeed places of assembly. However, it was the Temple was where all the important liturgies were held. And yes, the apostles did indeed preach in the Temple. As with Christians, the family meal (on Friday evening) was the central time of worship. While these prayers were important (then and now), they were not liturgies in synagogues.

I don't think that our liturgical church is in any way related to the synagogues and the prayers said by Jews in their homes. Our liturgy leans much more on the more important prayers said in the Temple (and perhaps the Friday evening home prayers). And yes, these liturgies can, in some way, be traced back to Melchizadek. Jesus tore the curtain in the Temple. God lived in the Temple. God did not live in the local home assemblies of the Jews.

 

[kit]

There were indeed places of assembly. However, it was the Temple was where all the important liturgies were held. And yes, the apostles did indeed preach in the Temple. As with Christians, the family meal (on Friday evening) was the central time of worship. While these prayers were important (then and now), they were not liturgies in synagogues.

I don't think that our liturgical church is in any way related to the synagogues and the prayers said by Jews in their homes. Our liturgy leans much more on the more important prayers said in the Temple (and perhaps the Friday evening home prayers). And yes, these liturgies can, in some way, be traced back to Melchizadek. Jesus tore the curtain in the Temple. God lived in the Temple. God did not live in the local home assemblies of the Jews.

It certainly is related. Synagogue observance is a template or model. Christian liturgy has specifics of it's own to be sure but the outline was there before Christianity was a distinct religion.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I think I understand the intent of the question but all religious worship is "liturgical". Protestants, yes even evangelicals, have a liturgy. But (A) they refuse to call it a liturgy and (B) they certainly won't put it in writing. But for all practical purposes they do indeed have a liturgy. They do more or less the same thing more or less the same way more or less every week.

So the question isn't whether the Early Church used liturgical worship. If your question revolves around historical authenticity, as seems to be the case, the issue should be how well Protestant and evangelical liturgies line up with the Early Church. And if the the sources mentioned up to now are anything to judge by, the Early Church's liturgy was recognizably Catholic in nature.