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Was Judas's destiny predestined?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Superhero Sam, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    The Bible says (I forgot the specific verse) something about Judas betraying Christ so that the "scriptures be fullfilled", or something like that. I forgot what exactly the verse says. But does that verse imply that Judas was predestined to betray Christ, and he had no choice in the matter?
     
  2. WanderingBloom

    WanderingBloom Real Heroes Don't Wear Capes.They Wear Dog Tags.

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    John 17:12 is the scripture I think you are referring to.
    Scriptures tell us all things are predestined by the sovereign God for his pleasure and by his will.
    Without Judas doing his part Christ would have not been able to die for the sins of the world. Fulfilling the mission he too was destined for.
     
  3. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    Yes it means exactly that, but it does not mean that Judas did not make the decision to do so himself. He reject the Lord as His Savior and God had predestined him to be in the position to betray Jesus, it does not say that he was predestine to rejected Jesus as His Savior. All things working together to fulfill God's purposes means He does have the final say in ever situation. Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord. Pro 19:21 There are many plans in a man’s heart, Nevertheless the Lord’s counsel—that will stand.
     
  4. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear Superhero Sam. No, Judas was not predestined, but Judas was chosen by God because Judas was the right person to do so, and was capable because he did not believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah. We have
    an other case, when Pharao would not let the people go. God did not keep the Pharao from not wanting to let the Israelites go, This Pharao wanted to keep the Israelites as his slaves, and said No to God and Moses.
    We have free will, and God will not force us, we can either follow Jesus back to God, or go our own way, and end up without God`s Love or Light, in Outer Darkness. I say this with love, Sam. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  5. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

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    He had plenty of choice in the matter, prophesy is explicitly a foretelling, through foreknowledge, which is different from predestination.
     
  6. beforHim

    beforHim Apologetical

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    Something not yet mentioned, for what it's worth:

    The scriptures never say "Judas Iscariot, one of the twelves disciples, the one who had the money bag, etc. etc. betrayed Christ". It was more general: Close friend betrayed Christ, for thirty pieces of silver, I believe that's how specific the prophecies get. Never mentions an exact person.


    Also never forget, we'll never totally understand His ways, at least not down here. Our ways are not His ways, and all that jazz.
     
  7. Pal Handy

    Pal Handy Irregular Member

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    God knowing the future does not mean that God predestined
    Judas to betray Jesus.

    Knowledge is not control.
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis De profundis clamavi et exaudisti me.

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    Judas wasn't an automaton, nor was he following a script.

    Judas' actions were his own.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. SwordFall

    SwordFall Junior Member

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    If God knew, and yet God still created, then God intended and therefore predestined.

    It really just depends on if you believe God created out of mandatory grace or decisive intent.
    If God created by an automated grace of His being, then Judas freely chose. If it was decisive, then Judas was predestined.
     
  10. Rubiks

    Rubiks God's little autistic boy! :)

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    Yes God predestined, however Judas was NOT forced to betray Jesus. It was a free choice made by him
     
  11. football5680

    football5680 Newbie

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    No. There is a difference between being predestined and the fact that God has foreknowledge. Judas made his own free will choices and God just happened to know beforehand. Nobody is going to be able to say to God you made me like this because we make our own choices.
     
  12. johnregnier

    johnregnier Member

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    I can agree with what you said. God knows, but we don't.

    May God bless, John
     
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Judas is of Satan, not of God, yet numbered among the twelve, chosen to be a fulfillment of prophecy, Jesus says he was a devil. A perfect example of the truth that there will be false prophets, false teachers, false apostles and false satanically inspired people inside of the true church.

    John 6
    Satan enters into Judas, then Judas betrays Jesus.
    Luke 22
    So satanically possessed Judas seeks how to betray Jesus.
    In John 13, satan enters into judas again at the last supper. And Jesus commands that satanically possessed Judas do it quickly this betrayal.
    Jesus says Judas is fulfilling the scriptures, that is the role alluded to in John 6 where Jesus says Judas is a devil.


     
  14. dougangel

    dougangel Newbie

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    All verses are quoted from the NASB anything in [square brackets] is added by me for clarity.

    "I [Jesus] do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, `HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.' " John 13:18

    Here we see that Jesus applies Psalm 41:9 to Judas Iscariot.
    "My [Jesus'] enemies speak evil against Me, `When will He die, and His name perish?' And when he comes to see Me, he speaks falsehood; His heart gathers wickedness to itself; When he goes outside, he tells it. All who hate Me whisper together against Me; Against Me they devise My hurt, saying, `A wicked thing is poured out upon Him, That when He lies down, He will not rise up again.' Even My [Jesus'] close friend [Judas] in whom I trusted, Who ate My bread, Has lifted up his heel against Me." Psalm 41:4-9

    Jesus actually gave Judas the bread bringing Psalms 41:4-9 into fulfilment (also quoting some of psalms 41:4-9)
    and Satan entered Judas. I'm not surprised. It's was because of the spoken word of great prophets that Satan entered him. Because of prophecy and the spoken word there had to be a betrayer.
    Did it have to be Judas Iscariot could it have been someone else ?
    Jesus warns him, woe to you, (why did Jesus do that if he didn't have a choice.)
    Like others have pointed out he really didn't have belief, he was the book keeper of the Group and he was stealing from them.
    So there was betrayal before then. If anyone else knew he was stealing, it would of really undermined Jesus authority.

    I really believe sin brought the right candidate not predestination.
    Anyone who acted like Judas would of been a choice for the fulfilment of the betrayal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  15. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    But why did Judas go to hell for betraying Christ, if his actions of betraying Christ were the only way to bring salvation to the world?
     
  16. AphroditeGoneAwry

    AphroditeGoneAwry Mary~

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    Jesus knew Judas would betray him. But what's more, it was planned.

    As illustrated when Jesus said, "Whatever you do, do it quickly."

    They had been friends of a different sort.

    It was sort-of like a Snape/Dumbledore sort of thing, if you will.
     
  17. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    It is when you bring people into being. jm2c.

    Where does the Bible say Judas went to hell?
     
  18. StormHawk

    StormHawk Guest

  19. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    ^^

    Most of us would think that Iscariot would be Judas’ last name, But the name Iscariot only indentified the city that Judas was from. In the Hebrew the word Iscariot means "a man of Kerioth" or Carioth, which is a city of Judah (cf. Joshua 15:25). Judas was the only one of the twelve that was from the Southern Kingdom known as Judah, or the Land of Judea at that time. Which means that he was not a holder of the birthright. It is the same as the story of Moses in the wilderness, Moses was not qualified to share the Promised Land with Israel because he was a Levite and not a leader from Ephraim who was the holder of the birthright. Judas' purpose was to be a shadow of the betrayal and rejection of the Southern Kingdom known at that time as Judea. The name Judas is the Greek word for the same name as Judah in the Hebrew. God is going to redeem Judah's honor after he has saved all of Israel and the King from their tribe Judah sits on the Throne to govern the entire Earth.

    ...very interesting indeed
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    I would not say "predestined" because that implies that Judas did not have free will as to his choice. I would say pre-seen, or pre-told.

    Doug