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Was John the Baptist a Nazarite?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by tturt, May 31, 2013.

  1. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran

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    Hope it's ok to ask this.

    Reading Numbers 6 and researching Nazarites in Scripture:

    "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1:15 And he followed through - Luke 7:33 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil."

    yet
    "And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey." Matt 3:4

    Know Samson touched a jawbone of a donkey (Judges 15:15) and ate honey from the carcase of the lion: Judges 14:8

    Does the "dead body" (Num 6:6) just mean human bodies? Or saying that Nazarites aren't to touch "anything unclean" adding too much?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  2. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Perhaps what is more prescient concerning the "jaw bone" prophetic parable is the locale in which it occurs, which was Ramath Lehi, a place in Lehi also having been named `Eyn- ha-Qowre', which is to say "Fountain of the Cryer" (in the wilderness). :)
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Yes, it is ok to ask and it is a great question to ponder and consider.
    First you have to consider whether or not John had taken the Nazarene vow before you consider what he wore.
    Samson was not all there when it came to obedience... so yes, some things he did are questionable when it comes to certain particulars of the law
    "dead body" covers about all the dead carcases whether man or animal... to the best of my knowledge.:wave:
     
  4. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth but then cant live with it

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    Yes, John definitely was a Nazarite. In fact Yeshua took a vow at the last supper.."will not drink of the fruit of the vine til..."
     
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  5. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran

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    posted: First you have to consider whether or not John had taken the Nazarene vow before you consider what he wore.

    Yeshua HaDerekh, is this the Scripture? .Luke 7:33 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil."

    Read some articles that stated there aren't any Biblical example of a woman Nazarite but Samson's mother was told ".I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:"

    I've always thought Yeshua would have been a Nazarite from birth. But He wouldn't have had to make the sin offerings.

    Thanks daq, visionary, and Yeshua HaDerekh for posting.
     
  6. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth but then cant live with it

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    Yeshua was NOT a Nazarite from birth like John was. Yeshua took the vow at the last supper...Matthew 26:29, Luke 22:18 & Mark 14:25.
     
  7. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Hi Yeshua,

    Please refrain from making absolute doctrinal statements in the Messianic Judaism forum. As an Eastern Orthodox, you may not teach Messianic doctrine. I would ask that you rephrase your comments to conform with the rules stated in the SoP.

    For instance, you might say, "I do not believe that Yeshua was a Nazarite from birth because..." OR - you might say, "In Eastern Orthodoxy, we believe (such and such)..." so that it doesn't sound like you are teaching Messianic Doctrine. Often, rephrasing absolute statements as a question instead can have a positive effect on how your position and beliefs are received too.

    Thank you for your help in setting a good example for our other visitors. It is appreciated.

    Blessings,
    Phillip

     
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Hey Yeshua :),

    I agree with you that the Lord took a vow abstaining from wine and that is a big deal...and in many respects, Yeshua did what the Nazarites were about.

    On another question, I was curious as to whether or not you were Jewish - as I noticed you were EO (and I am aware of where you've shared before on the forums on your view - as seen in #60 ).

    For myself, I was wondering since we have another Jewish individual on the boards who is involved with Orthodoxy as well as being Messianic. ...if aware of Daughter of Ararat (#5 /#27 /#85 ). She'd be a good example of Dual Identity - as she's Jewish and identifies as Messianic (more here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here), but also goes to an Armenian Orthodox (Oriential Orthodox) church... and as shared in some of our conversations, "There is a cultural commonality and similarity of approach in the Orthodox and the Messianic Jewish (or sometimes in the MJ) that I feel like it expresses something important about who I am.... Both aspects reflect part of my faith and understanding of the world."

    There've been others in the past with similar background aspects and yet having various expressions - something the mods are aware of when it comes to dual membership and that they have noted before. For another example, one can consider Contra Mundum being someone, seeing that he is Messianic Jewish and has worked in Liturgical circles of the Church such as Lutheranism and Anglicanism while also being a Messianic Jewish minister ( more shared here in #16 / #16 / #28 / #35 /#64/#68 /#75/ #76 /#83/ #219 #220 ). And for myself, as I work with others in OO and feel OO (Oriential Orthodoxy) reflects Jewish culture the best (IMHO) in regards to how it reflects a way of original understanding that had its Jewish roots and its Semitic culture as a basis for understanding the thought, vision, and the teachings of Jesus (or Yeshua as he was called in the Aramic and in His day) , I am glad for it ( #1 , #1 , #1 #3 ) even as I'm thankful for Messianic Jewish culture.

    Concerning Orthodoxy, there are plenty of Jews involved in Orthodoxy while also identifying with Messianic culture....seeing the aspects of Temple culture which are present within it as well as other things. There's much more of a focus on that aspect of Messianic life in the part of the forum known as [​IMG]Bridge Builders. And within the Messianic world, there has been much focus in regards to Jewish individuals involved in Liturgical circles of the Church - the entire concept of what Bridge-Builders is about. I've shared more elsewhere on the issue before (as seen here , here, here, here and here).
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  9. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Hi tturt,

    Please remember that there is a time when a dead body ceases to be 'unclean'. Meat for consumption, pelts and skins for leather and furs, implements made of bone, etc., are not considered unclean. Even skins from 'unclean' animals are not considered unclean. I'm sure the NFL is very happy to hear this... ;)

    There is some controversy about these things. Nothing is a done deal with scripture and people. Nothing is easy when people are involved. But generally speaking, I think the determination of clean and unclean and carcasses has to do with the blood.

    Good question BTW. :thumbsup:
     
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  10. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    We now have dual memberships? REALLY? I did not get the memo. So Jewish Eastern Orthodox can have a dual membership but other Jews can't? When did this happen?
     
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  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    The Lord was set apart, nonetheless. And in that sense, He'd be akin to what occurred with the Nazarites - or other children consecrated to the Lord (like Samuel the Prophet or Samson and others).
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    We had another thread long ago on the issue which went into depth/detail on the subject - entitled Torah, Food & Bugs: Which Kosher Insects Would You Be Comfortable Eating? which sought to cover the issue.

    As far as I'm aware, Samson ate honey from the carcass of a dead lion ( Judges 14:7-9 ), eating the honey and giving some to his parents while not telling them where he got it, or that he killed a lion, for that matter. According to Numbers 6:3-6, Nazirites are not supposed to eat grapes or touch a corpse. Moreover, touching the carcass of an unclean animal makes an Israelite impure until the evening, meaning he must wash his clothes (Leviticus 11:27-28)...and thus, many have rightly noted where he sinned by defiling himself through eating honey that was defiled through its contact with a corpse (and of an unclean animal, no less)....

    Thus, for Samson, he did make himself unclean in what he ate.


    With others like John the Baptist, there doesn't seem to be any record of ever breaking a Nazarite Vow - even though John was a child dedicated to the Lord. Lou Engle spoke before on the issue in a very awesome sermon on the ways John the Baptist and others were consecrated unto the Lord - as seen in International House of Prayer, Kansas City (IHOP-KC) - The Nazarite Consecration.

    As far as I'm aware, Yeshua making sacrifices would be akin to the Lord asking for something to be done on humanity's part as a means of being right with Him--with the Lord setting the rules for how he wanted the people to approach Him if they wanted to be clean, IMHO. The Lord did not need to have sacrifices...but as it concerns relationships, it was not an option for the people not to bring them if they wanted to connect with Him. Of course, that can also be an issue of semantics since sacrifices in/of themselves were never able to cleanse people of their sins.....and there was always the dynamic of what sacrifices symbolized when it came to what they poitned to (more shared in #22 ).

    As a Jew, Jesus must have kept the Law of Moses perfectly. Yet that same law required all Jews to keep the Passover celebration ( (Exodus 12:47 ). The Gospels specifically mention Jesus keeping three Passover feasts in Jerusalem....even as a boy (Luke 2:41-51). In order to keep the feast, the participants were given roasted lamb, bitter herbs, and unleavened bread to eat (Exodus 12:3-4). The entire lamb had to be eaten during the feast. If there were any leftovers, they had to be burned (Exodus 12:10). If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law and could have been accused of sin ( Numbers 9:10-13 ). The New Testament records that Jesus did eat the Passover feast, which would include the eating of the roasted lamb (Luke 22:14-15).

    On the Nazarene Vow, Yeshua didn’t have to have the Nazarite principles to live by because He had no sin to begin with. Numbers 6:6 says that a Nazarite was to “come at no dead body” meaning they couldn’t even approach it. ...and yet we see the Lord approaching the dead/touching them to make them live again (Luke 7:14, Luke 8:53, & John 11:39).

    Jesus was a Nazarene in the sense that He was from the city of Nazareth, but He was not a Nazarite in the strict sense. For the word Nazirite occurs much more frequently in the early Old Testament than in the later books - even though the practice hadn't died out in the New Testament era, as shown by Acts 18:18, which reads Paul had his head shaven because he was previously under a vow....and later in Acts 21:27-26, Paul sought to appease the Jews by declaring he has four Nazirites among his following who he fulfilled a vow with (more discussed here). It's highly likely that John the Baptist was probably a Nazirite (Luke 1:15), even though it is by no means certain that Yeshua had been a Nazarite as well. For if He had been a Nazirite, again, He would have sinned as He touched the coffin of the widow's dead son (Luke 7:14) and as He called into Lazarus' grave (John 11:43, compared with Numbers 6:6)....and Yeshua also drank wine, (Matthew 11:19, compared with Numbers 6:3).

    It makes more sense to say that the Messiah was not a Nazirite but a Nazarene, meaning: someone from Nazareth. It is within the Book of Matthew where it's explained that the move ofYeshua and His parents to Nazareth was something predicted by the prophets (Matthew2:23) - although the name Nazareth does not occur in the Old Testament.

    And with Nazarath, Nathanael the disciple seemed to have no knowledge of any prediction that something good was to come from Nazareth (John 1:46, 1:43-51)...yet that was often done due to how others had associated negative things with places which had Biblical significance. In example, as others often seemed to see Christ's upbringing as problematic, recall John 7:
    John 7:37-53

    Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42 Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43 Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44 Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

    Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders 45 Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, “Why didn’t you bring him in?”
    46 “No one ever spoke the way this man does,” the guards replied.

    47 “You mean he has deceived you also?” the Pharisees retorted. 48 “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49 No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them.”

    50 Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51 “Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing?”

    52 They replied, “Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee.”

    [The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]

    53 Then they all went home,

    The Pharisees that Jesus came against, often noted to be apart of the School of Shemi, were not accepting of Gentiles....and this is not surprising since the School of Shemai taught such. Thus, using their authorities, they often tried to silence anything that was supportative of Gentile praise. Its one of the reasons they came in conflict with Christ---as with him being more in line with the School of Hilel, he would have been very much opposed to Him. Though they could claim nothing good came out of Nazareth/Galilee, they could only reinforce that thought if they skipped over what the Prophets had already said.

    As said of Galilee by Isaiah:
    Isaiah 9: 1
    Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress.
    In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan.
    What the Pharisees did not tell the people was that yes in the past God did humble the land of Zebulun but in the future God will honour Galilee of the Gentiles.....and the future had arrived, as the Messiah was from Galilee---The One place that many Ethocentric Jews just could not stand. Bear in mind that the Jews LITERALLY wanted to kill him after praising Gentiles (like Naaman the Syrian or the Widow who the prophet fed) in Luke 4/Matthew 4...as they felt that only Jews could have truth faith...but this was apart of prophecy

    For as much as the Pharisees (minus the godly ones, such as Nicodemus---a secret follower of Christ) and Saducess would say Christ was illegitimate due to his upbringing, they had no real basis...and their desire to kill Jesus was birthed out of how he was really challenging their biases/prejudices toward certain groups. When they said "Examine the Scriptures.....you will see that out of Galilee there ariseth no prophet!!!!", it was a reflection of something that often happens in history when certain groups deliberately leave out the stories of where other groups have made contributions---and then all precedding generations afterward believe the lie. For the Pharisees were simply false in their claims (as were others agasinst Galilee) since Jonah was of Gathheper, in Galilee ( 2 Kings 14:25, compared with Joshua 19:13). As said before, Jonah was a prophet from Galilee (Gath-hepher) who counseled Jeroboam II in his successful conflict with the Syrians...making our date for the prophet Jonah to be that of 786-746 B.C.E. During Jeroboam II's reign, the boundaries of Israel reached the former limits of David's kingdom. And a new threat arose in the move of Assyria as it expanded and swalloed up kingdoms. Jonah came from Galilee to prophesy during expansion of Israel under Jeroboam II. ..and as the story of Jonah shows, God responded compassionately to Israel

    Outside of Jonah, other prophets came from the "Ghetto" of Israel. In example, the Prophet Nahum was also a Galilean ( (Na 1:1) ), for he was of the tribe of Simeon. And some suppose that Malachi was of the same place. If that wasn't enough, the greatest of the prophets was Elijah the Tishbite (1 Kings 17:1)---and even HE was of Galilee.

    And so again, Yeshua being from Nazareth would make him "Nazarene" in the sense of identification in location - and the pressure he endured in being faithful to the Lord would also be included in regards to how He chose to be faithful to the consecrated life He was called to even when others doubted him :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth but then cant live with it

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    Truth is truth Phillip, whether EO or Messianic. But I understand what you mean. Thanks
     
  14. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius New Member

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    When I think of John and Elijah and Nazarites, Here is what's in my mind.

    You take a vow to become a Nazarite because you must do away with the fallen creature which is the Adam in you and the Eve.

    You set yourself apart to become a new Eve and you grow your hair long.
    You don't drink any wine because you are refusing any spirit, you don't touch dead bodies for the same reason.

    You become a virgin and after a time you take a mikva for crossing over to become a new creature.

    You sacrifice a he lamb, an ewe and a Ram and these are symbolic to the creature you are in Body, soul, and spirit.

    You cut your hair because changing coverings, you burn the hair with the Ram.


    I think of Samson going to get married and I see him as a Nazarite{a virgin} so before he could get married, his hair needed to be symbolically cut.

    I think of the jawbone of the ass as a man from Dan{The Judge} killing people with words{jawbone} of Issachar, Issachar is a scholar and so the ass is mentioned.

    When I see the Lion, I think of Judah, and I see this whole story as a shadow of what Jesus came to do.

    John had to have his head cut off, because he appointed a new head for himself and that Head is Jesus.

    I think of the covering of a man, the covering of a woman and what all this means, and to take a nazarite vow, is to change a covering.

    The head of the woman is the man, and that head was fallen and so you seek a new covering in taking a Nazarite vow.
     
  15. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran

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    Thanks for all the replies. Printing it off so I can really read it. I really appreciate it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  16. AZZAZIEL

    AZZAZIEL Newbie

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    Curious, Where does it say John the baptist was a nazarite in the bible?

    Also the The ordinances of the law was nailed to the cross so the nazarite vow is also void (Colossains 2:14). When that which is perfect is come even the new testament miracles is over (1Corinthians 13:10). I don't believe Jesus was a nazarite at all. Also Jesus touched dead things which was also a nazarite was not suppose to do.
     
  17. aniello

    aniello Guest

    1) I do not, personally, recall the answer to that question.

    2) In reference to your 2nd paragraph, please read this MJ forum's SoP as you are NOT to teach while showing a foreign Icon.

    In our view your perception of your two cited scriptural references are not at all correct. I must return to work in about 5 minutes, but I'm sure some one will be along and straighten it out for you.

    One thing I'd ask you. Who died for your/our sins, was buried and resurrected after 3 nights and 3 days, and then, ultimately, ascended into Heaven to be with The Father and to intercede for us as The High Priest? Yeshua/Jesus or was it Paul? Therefore, who has Supreme Authority? Yeshua or Paul?
     
  18. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    :thumbsup:
    I'd had a whole reply done stating pretty much what you just said (I hadn't read your reply at the time). Glad I deleted mine, figured someone else would say it better (been up all night, not thinking so clearly, hehehe).
     
  19. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth but then cant live with it

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    Luke 1:15 John was a lifetime Nazarite from birth.

    Paul himself took the vow AFTER Jesus ascended (Acts 18:18). Jesus took the vow at the last supper as I have already stated. Maybe you should look up "nazarite" on Wiki or something?

    ...there you go! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013