Vietnam Veterans, What is your oppinion of Kerry?

Status
Not open for further replies.

arnegrim

...still not convinced it was the wrong one.
Jun 2, 2004
4,852
140
California
✟13,223.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
(CNSNews.com) - The 1970 meeting that current Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry conducted with North Vietnamese communists may have violated several U.S. laws, according to an author and researcher who has studied the issue.

But Kerry's meetings with the Vietnamese delegations were in direct violation of laws which forbade private citizens from negotiating with foreign powers, according to researcher and author Jerry Corsi, who began studying the anti-war movement in the early 1970s.

According to Corsi, Kerry violated U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953. "A U.S. citizen cannot go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power," Corsi told CNSNews.com.

"In [Kerry's] first meeting in 1970, meeting with Madam Binh, Kerry was still a naval reservist -- not only a U.S. citizen, but a naval reservist -- stepping outside the boundaries to meet with one of the principle figures of our enemy in Vietnam, Madam Binh, and the Viet Cong at the same time. [Former Nixon administration aide Henry] Kissinger was trying to negotiate with them formally," Corsi told CNSNews.com.

"Article three: Section three [of the U.S. Constitution], which defines treason, says you cannot give support to the enemy in time of war and here you have Kerry giving a press conference in Washington on July 22, 1971 (a year after his meeting with the communist delegations in Paris) advocating the North Vietnamese peace plan and saying that is what President Nixon ought to accept," Corsi explained.

The 7 Point Plan, was created by the North Vietnamese communists and was nothing more than a "surrender" for the U.S., according to Corsi.

"You don't advocate that [7 point] plan unless you are on the communist side. It was seen as surrender. [The U.S.] would have had to pay reparations and agree that we essentially lost the war," Corsi said.

"Kerry was openly advocating that the communist position was correct and that we were wrong. He had become a spokesman for the communist party," Corsi added.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=%5C%5CSpecialReports%5C%5Carchive%5C%5C200405%5C%5CSPE20040520a.html


Looks like treason to me.
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ACougar said:
What is treasonus about meeting with NV leaders to negotiate the return of captured POW's?
Return of the POW's? Kerry displayed during the 1971 Congressional Hearings that he didn't give a rat's ass about America's POW's.







kerrycommunistmuseum.jpg



Photograph of John Kerry meeting with Comrade Do Muoi, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam, in Vietnam, July 15-18, 1993. Photo taken in the War Remnants Museum (formerly the "War Crimes Museum") in Saigon in May 2004. "This photograph's unquestionable significance lies in its placement in the American protestors' section of the War Crimes Museum in Saigon. The Vietnamese communists clearly recognize John Kerry's contributions to their victory. This find can be compared to the discovery of a painting of Neville Chamberlain hanging in a place of honor in Hitler's Eagle's Nest in 1945."


Below are some of the crimes Lt. Kerry USNR committed as a Ready Reservist, while he was acting as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War:

1. Lt. Kerry attended many rallies where the Vietcong flag was displayed while our flag was desecrated, defiled, and mocked, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

2. Lt. Kerry was involved in a meeting that voted on assassinating members of the US Senate.

3. Lt. Kerry lied under oath against fellow soldiers before the US Senate about crimes committed in Vietnam.

4. Lt. Kerry admitted to being a war criminal on national television, and condemned the military and the USA.
5. Lt. Kerry met with NVA and Vietcong communist leaders in Paris, in direct violation of the UCMJ and the U.S. Constitution.
 
Upvote 0

winteralfs

Active Member
Aug 31, 2004
46
3
✟181.00
Faith
Non-Denom
So the obvious question then is why wasnt John Kerry tried for treason? Here you have a man who had been a major thorn in Nixon's side sense returning from the war. He was clearly a priority of the Nixon whitehouse, and somone withome they would have discredited given ANY oppurtunity. So why wasnt John Kerry prosecuted for treason? Believe me, if the powers that were could have done it, they would have.

The reason Kerry probably wasnt prosecuted for treason is probably the same reason draft dodgers and protesters who upset United States supply lines werent prosected. The Vietnam conflicy was never a war by the legal definition. It was a police action. We never formally declarred war. That is why such protests werent illegal, and probably why Kerry was never indicted. im not a lawyer, but thats my guess.
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
georgebudday.gif


Col. George E. "Bud" Day is the most decorated officer since Gen. Douglas
MacArthur, and was Senator John McCain's cellmate in the Hanoi Hilton.

The following is a letter to Joe Scarborough and John O'Neil from
Medal of Honor Recipient and former POW Colonel Bud Day.


Dear Joe: The major issue in the Swiftboat stories is, and always has been, what John Kerry did in 1971 after he returned from Vietnam.

Kerry cast a long dark shadow over all Vietnam Veterans with his outright perjury before the Senate concerning atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies.. fabrications.. perjury.. fantasies, with NO substance. That dark shadow has defamed the entire Vietnam War veteran population, and gave "Aid and Comfort" to our enemies...the Vietnamese Communists. Kerry's stories were outright fabrications, and were intended for political gain with the radical left...McGovern, Teddy and Bobby Kennedy followers, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and the radical left who fantasized that George McGovern was going to be elected in 1972. Little wonder that returning soldiers from Vietnam were spit upon and castigated as "baby killers". A returned war hero said so.

Kerry cut a dashing figure as a war hero, lots of medals, and returned home because of multiple war wounds...even a silver star. His Senate testimony confirmed what every hippie had been chanting on the streets..."Hey hey LBJ...How many kids did you kill today"????? He obviously was running for political office in 1971.

Until Lt. John O' Neil, himself a Swifboat commander, spoke out before the 1972 elections against Kerry's outright deceptions, there was no one from the Swiftboat scene that could contradict Kerry's self serving lies.

I was a POW of the Vietnamese in Hanoi in 1971, and I am aware that the testimony of John Kerry, the actions of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, and the radical left; all caused the commies to conclude that if they hung on...they would win. North Vietnamese General Bui Tin commented that every day the Communist leadership listened to world news over the radio to follow the growth of the anti-war movement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark gave them confidence to hold in the face of battlefield reverses. The guts of it was that propaganda from the anti-war group was part of their combat strategy.

While the Commies were hanging on, innumerable U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Air Force members were being killed in combat. Every battle wound to Americans after Kerry's misdirected testimony is related to Kerry's untruthfulness. John Kerry contributed to every one of these deaths with his lies about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He likewise defamed the U.S. with our allies and supporters.

His conduct also extended the imprisonment of the Vietnam Prisoners of War, of which I was one. I am certain of at least one POW death after his testimony, which might have been prevented with an earlier release of the POWs.

My friend and room mate Senator John S. McCain denounced the Swiftboat video by John O'Neil. I have a different take on the Swiftboat tape and disagree with my good friend John.

John Kerry opened up his character as a war hero reporting for duty to the country with a hand salute...and his band of brothers...of which he was the chief hero. Most of his convention speech was about John Kerry...Vietnam hero, and his band of brothers. John Kerry's character is not only fair game, it is the primary issue. He wants to use Bill Clinton's "is", as an answer to his lack of character.

The issue is trust. Can anyone trust John Kerry?? "Never lie, cheat or steal" is the West Point motto. When a witness perjures himself at trial, the judge notes that his testimony lacks credibility. Should we elect a known proven liar to lead us in wartime??

I draw a direct comparison of General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement, and his direct liaison with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward. Political gain. Senator...United States.

His record as a Senator for twenty years has been pitiful. Conjure up, if you will, one major bill that he has sponsored.

John Kerry for President? Ridiculous. Unthinkable. Unbelievable. Outrageous.
Col. Geo. "Bud" Day
Medal of Honor
Vietnam POW 1967-1973
USMC- USA- USA
Attorney 1949-2004
 
Upvote 0

daidhaid

walkin' slack
Dec 29, 2003
572
25
73
easily defended high ground
✟881.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
arnegrim said:
Considering the general public sentiment of the Vietnam War at the time... who WOULD have prosecuted a protestor?!?

Aha my point exactly...
Today is the anniversary of the largest of all the anti-war protests, the Moratorium.
All across the nation and especially in the capitol Americans stopped what they were doing to register their opposition to the war in Vietnam.
 
Upvote 0

daidhaid

walkin' slack
Dec 29, 2003
572
25
73
easily defended high ground
✟881.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
arnegrim said:
And prosecuting Kerry for treason would have thrown gasoline on the fire.

Kerry was working to end the war.

In his testimony to Congress, Kerry went on to say: "We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs as well as by search and destroy missions, as well as by Vietcong terrorism, and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong. We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum. We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals."

"Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese... Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake," Kerry said, emphasizing his call for supporting the troops by bringing them home from a hell of our creation. "Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, 'the first President to lose a war.' "

"We are asking Americans to think about that, because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying, as human beings, to communicate to people in this country - the question of racism, which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions, such as the use of weapons: the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones; harassment-interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions; the bombings; the torture of prisoners; all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ACougar

U.S. Army Retired
Feb 7, 2003
16,795
1,295
Arizona
Visit site
✟30,452.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
For a fair evaluation of all this swiftboat distraction from the real issues nonsense, check out Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

For those of you who don't know Snopes is a websight dedicated to busting up Urban legends. If you really want to support the troops vote to get them out of there as soon as the job is done instead of establishing permanent bases in Iraq.


Gunny said:
Col. George E. "Bud" Day is the most decorated officer since Gen. Douglas
MacArthur, and was Senator John McCain's cellmate in the Hanoi Hilton.

The following is a letter to Joe Scarborough and John O'Neil from
Medal of Honor Recipient and former POW Colonel Bud Day.


Dear Joe: The major issue in the Swiftboat stories is, and always has been, what John Kerry did in 1971 after he returned from Vietnam.

Kerry cast a long dark shadow over all Vietnam Veterans with his outright perjury before the Senate concerning atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies.. fabrications.. perjury.. fantasies, with NO substance. That dark shadow has defamed the entire Vietnam War veteran population, and gave "Aid and Comfort" to our enemies...the Vietnamese Communists. Kerry's stories were outright fabrications, and were intended for political gain with the radical left...McGovern, Teddy and Bobby Kennedy followers, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and the radical left who fantasized that George McGovern was going to be elected in 1972. Little wonder that returning soldiers from Vietnam were spit upon and castigated as "baby killers". A returned war hero said so.

Kerry cut a dashing figure as a war hero, lots of medals, and returned home because of multiple war wounds...even a silver star. His Senate testimony confirmed what every hippie had been chanting on the streets..."Hey hey LBJ...How many kids did you kill today"????? He obviously was running for political office in 1971.

Until Lt. John O' Neil, himself a Swifboat commander, spoke out before the 1972 elections against Kerry's outright deceptions, there was no one from the Swiftboat scene that could contradict Kerry's self serving lies.

I was a POW of the Vietnamese in Hanoi in 1971, and I am aware that the testimony of John Kerry, the actions of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, and the radical left; all caused the commies to conclude that if they hung on...they would win. North Vietnamese General Bui Tin commented that every day the Communist leadership listened to world news over the radio to follow the growth of the anti-war movement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark gave them confidence to hold in the face of battlefield reverses. The guts of it was that propaganda from the anti-war group was part of their combat strategy.

While the Commies were hanging on, innumerable U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Air Force members were being killed in combat. Every battle wound to Americans after Kerry's misdirected testimony is related to Kerry's untruthfulness. John Kerry contributed to every one of these deaths with his lies about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He likewise defamed the U.S. with our allies and supporters.

His conduct also extended the imprisonment of the Vietnam Prisoners of War, of which I was one. I am certain of at least one POW death after his testimony, which might have been prevented with an earlier release of the POWs.

My friend and room mate Senator John S. McCain denounced the Swiftboat video by John O'Neil. I have a different take on the Swiftboat tape and disagree with my good friend John.

John Kerry opened up his character as a war hero reporting for duty to the country with a hand salute...and his band of brothers...of which he was the chief hero. Most of his convention speech was about John Kerry...Vietnam hero, and his band of brothers. John Kerry's character is not only fair game, it is the primary issue. He wants to use Bill Clinton's "is", as an answer to his lack of character.

The issue is trust. Can anyone trust John Kerry?? "Never lie, cheat or steal" is the West Point motto. When a witness perjures himself at trial, the judge notes that his testimony lacks credibility. Should we elect a known proven liar to lead us in wartime??

I draw a direct comparison of General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement, and his direct liaison with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward. Political gain. Senator...United States.

His record as a Senator for twenty years has been pitiful. Conjure up, if you will, one major bill that he has sponsored.

John Kerry for President? Ridiculous. Unthinkable. Unbelievable. Outrageous.
Col. Geo. "Bud" Day
Medal of Honor
Vietnam POW 1967-1973
USMC- USA- USA
Attorney 1949-2004
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


NOW YOU KNOW WHY
If you are an American of any political party, nothing will make you see the color red like this next paragraph will!

A member of the US Army Reserves, a twenty-five year old first lieutenant assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division serving in Iraq, a recipient of the Silver Star and Purple Heart, recently traveled to Tehran, Iran, where he met with senior Al Queda officials close to Usama bin Laden and several extremist Iranian mullahs to try to negotiate a peaceful end to the War in Iraq with no authorization from our government. The terrorist leaders met for two days of intense discussions with the junior officer. Yesterday, the young lieutenant returned to Washington, DC to meet with a congressional select committee, where he plans to propose the Al Queda’s list of demands for the United States incorporated into his own personal proposed peace plan, and this will be followed by a press conference. The soldier also plans to testify for the congressional committee and expound about American soldiers committing horrendous daily atrocities in Iraq against civilians and terrorists alike, with the full knowledge and sanction of the entire US military chain of command.

Can you imagine the harm this will do to our efforts against terrorism? Are you as infuriated, outraged, and beyond upset as I am? Then do something about it! But first, my fellow Americans, just chill: The lieutenant is fictional. The story is not; I just retold John Kerry’s Vietnam story with a modern-day setting. Now, you know more clearly why so many of us Vietnam veterans are so passionately against the election of John F. Kerry for President, and why the Vietnam War does indeed matter in this election.

For those who loudly proclaim that there was a My Lai and other atrocities, I reply but there are also Crips and Bloods in our society. For every large group of good guys in our society, we have a rapist, a murderer, a torturer, but that does not mean that MOST men are that way. Unlike Hollywood’s portrayals and John Kerry’s myths, most generals and admirals are actually men of honor who want to preserve American’s lives, not rush young men into war. 288 of them and 53 Vietnam Medal of Honor recipients support George W. Bush’s re-election, by the way. That is also why Swift Boat Veterans and POW’s for the Truth should be heeded and respected http://www.swiftvets.com/ .

Our greatest proponents of peace are the true warriors who have been there. We have seen the hell. We have lived the hell. But most of us lived through it with our honor, dignity, and sense of being an American soldier, sailor, airman, or marine intact: We have always been the good guys; that is, until Kerry, Fonda, wannabe-Woodward’s and Bernstein’s, and their ilk came along. Then we Vietnam veterans became the disenfranchised, zombie-like, robotic killers, cast under the spell of our evil government-controlled mind machine. But now, somehow we are normal people, albeit with some very rough memories, who are active in your church, PTA, local businesses, government, factories, and professional offices.

John Kerry is out to use anti-war rhetoric to hurt our soldiers again. John Kerry has used a war to his advantage and he is doing it again. John Kerry has left a trail of deeply wounded Vietnam Veterans and he wants to turn the United States against our soldiers again. The process has already started.

If you are an undecided voter or a democrat, please listen to me. You cannot, you must not, I implore you, please do not screw our veterans and active duty military again with apathy like it was done to Vietnam vets before! John Kerry opened the deep scabbed-over wounds that so very many of our number suffered from. We are now blood-letting those wounds, and the re-election of George W. Bush can be the very antiseptic we need, so those wounds can properly heal over this time. We Vietnam veterans can finally have some closure, or you can elect Kerry, and many of us will go deeper into that quiet painful place again. That deep bottomless pit of hurt and betrayal. Many did not care then. Will you now? We all walked around fairly normal but sometimes with that blank faraway look in our eyes. If you are a wife of one of us, you know what I mean by that look. But now, there is hope, and some of us even have a spring in our limping steps, but our proper healing is totally in your hands, and the potential emotional wounding of our children serving in Iraq and Afghanistan is also in your hands. Will you let them come home being told they served in the “wrong war, at the wrong place, at the wrong time?” We must stay the course with President Bush. We absolutely must.

John Kerry’s low-class invasion into the dignity and privacy of the Cheney family in the third debate showed you a glimpse at the darkness of his true character that many of us already knew. His running mate’s equally inappropriate remark in the Vice-Presidential debate showed us Kerry also has an evil “Mini-Me” to parrot the mannerisms of his dark side.

But to most of us Vietnam veterans, John Kerry is quite simply Benedict Arnold, and now mounting evidence as reported in the NEW YORK SUN, October 13 article http://www.nysun.com/article/3107 shows he may well have received a less than honorable discharge, which was later reversed by a “board of officers” at Jimmy Carter’s direction. In fact, as your President, John Kerry would be a copper-toned Jimmy Carter without the religious convictions.

4 out of 5 active duty military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan strongly support George W. Bush. Their very lives are on the line day in and day out. What do you suppose your vote putting Kerry into office will do to their morale? If 4 out of 5 don’t like him, how can he possibly lead them? Or do you really care as long as you think your health care cost is going to actually come down?

John Kerry has put the ultimate “Me” into Presidential politics. Isn’t it about time we get back to “We,” as in “We, the People?”

In his time off, Kerry likes to windsurf in the Hamptons. President Bush puts on old jeans and fixes fence and cuts firewood on his ranch. Who do you really want protecting us and leading our brave troops, Windsurfer Dude or the American cowboy?


Don Bendell served as an officer in four Special Forces Groups, including a tour on a green beret A-team (Dak Pek) in Vietnam in 1968-1969, and was in the Top Secret Phoenix Program, is a top-selling author of 21 books, with over 1,500,000 copies of his books in print worldwide, a 1995 inductee into the International Karate Hall of Fame, and owns karate schools in southern Colorado. His editorials on Bush/Kerry have been published all over, and he has been interviewed on FOX NEWS LIVE and many radio shows.



Permission is hereby granted to reprint, copy, or pass this on wherever and to whomever you choose.

Blessings,

Don Bendell


 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married





Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
October 13, 2004

An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves" opens a door on a well kept secret about his military service.

The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter administration's secretary of the Navy, W. Graham Claytor. It describes Mr. Kerry's discharge as being subsequent to the review of "a board of officers." This in it self is unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the Navy that requires a review by a board of officers.

According to the secretary of the Navy's document, the "authority of reference" this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry's record was "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163. "This section refers to the grounds for involuntary separation from the service. What was being reviewed, then, was Mr. Kerry's involuntary separation from the service. And it couldn't have been an honorable discharge, or there would have been no point in any review at all. The review was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry's status of discharge from a less than honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.

A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had ever been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There has been no response to that inquiry.

The document is dated February 16, 1978. But Mr. Kerry's military commitment began with his six-year enlistment contract with the Navy on February 18, 1966. His commitment should have terminated in 1972. It is highly unlikely that either the man who at that time was a Vietnam Veterans Against the War leader, John Kerry, requested or the Navy accepted an additional six year reserve commitment. And the Claytor document indicates proceedings to reverse a less than honorable discharge that took place sometime prior to February 1978.

The most routine time for Mr. Kerry's discharge would have been at the end of his six-year obligation, in 1972. But how was it most likely to have come about?

NBC's release this March of some of the Nixon White House tapes about Mr. Kerry show a great deal of interest in Mr. Kerry by Nixon and his executive staff, including, perhaps most importantly, Nixon's special counsel, Charles Colson. In a meeting the day after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony, April 23, 1971, Mr. Colson attacks Mr. Kerry as a "complete opportunist...We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President."

Mr. Colson was still on the case two months later, according to a memo he wrote on June 15,1971, that was brought to the surface by the Houston Chronicle. "Let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader." Nixon had been a naval officer in World War II. Mr. Colson was a former Marine captain. Mr. Colson had been prodded to find "dirt" on Mr. Kerry, but reported that he couldn't find any.

The Nixon administration ran FBI surveillance on Mr. Kerry from September 1970 until August 1972. Finding grounds for an other than honorable discharge, however, for a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, given his numerous activities while still a reserve officer of the Navy, was easier than finding "dirt."

For example, while America was still at war, Mr. Kerry had met with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegation to the Paris Peace talks in May 1970 and then held a demonstration in July 1971 in Washington to try to get Congress to accept the enemy's seven point peace proposal without a single change. Woodrow Wilson threw Eugene Debs, a former presidential candidate, in prison just for demonstrating for peace negotiations with Germany during World War I. No court overturned his imprisonment. He had to receive a pardon from President Harding.

Mr. Colson refused to answer any questions about his activities regarding Mr. Kerry during his time in the Nixon White House. The secretary of the Navy at the time during the Nixon presidency is the current chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Warner. A spokesman for the senator, John Ullyot, said, "Senator Warner has no recollection that would either confirm or challenge any representation that Senator Kerry received a less than honorable discharge."

The "board of officers" review reported in the Claytor document is even more extraordinary because it came about "by direction of the President." No normal honorable discharge requires the direction of the president. The president at that time was James Carter. This adds another twist to the story of Mr. Kerry's hidden military records.

Mr. Carter's first act as president was a general amnesty for draft dodgers and other war protesters. Less than an hour after his inauguration on January 21, 1977, while still in the Capitol building, Mr. Carter signed Executive Order 4483 empowering it. By the time it became a directive from the Defense Department in March 1977 it had been expanded to include other offenders who may have had general, bad conduct, dishonorable discharges, and any other discharge or sentence with negative effect on military records. In those cases the directive outlined a procedure for appeal on a case by case basis before a board of officers. A satisfactory appeal would result in an improvement of discharge status or an honorable discharge.

Mr. Kerry has repeatedly refused to sign Standard Form 180, which would allow the release of all his military records. And some of his various spokesmen have claimed that all his records are already posted on his Web site. But the Washington Post already noted that the Naval Personnel Office admitted that they were still withholding about 100 pages of files.

If Mr. Kerry was the victim of a Nixon "enemies list" hit, one might have expected him to wear it like a badge of honor, like many others such as his friend Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, CBS's Daniel Schorr, or the actor Paul Newman, who had made Mr. Colson's original list of 20 "enemies."

There are a number of categories of discharges besides honorable. There are general discharges, medical discharges, bad conduct discharges, as well as other than honorable and dishonorable discharges. There is one odd coincidence that gives some weight to the possibility that Mr. Kerry was dishonorably discharged. Mr. Kerry has claimed that he lost his medal certificates and that is why he asked that they be reissued. But when a dishonorable discharge is issued, all pay benefits, and allowances, and all medals and honors are revoked as well. And five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day, June 4, all of Mr. Kerry's medals were reissued.


© 2004 The New York Sun, One SL, LLC. All rights reserved
 
Upvote 0

daidhaid

walkin' slack
Dec 29, 2003
572
25
73
easily defended high ground
✟881.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
I have to admire the chutzpah of a guy who can proudly claim service in the Phoenix Program while denying the existence of war crimes like Kerry spoke of.

With all due respect to, the Karate master, SF officer, with a minor in political assassination. It is more than ironic and well past disingenuous for him lecture on the lies of John Kerry, or that war crimes are some urban myth of the 60's generation.

When someone uses their veteran status as a prop for their agenda in such a blatant fashion is usually irritating, mainly because they want you to assume to much based on who they were…
It bothered me a bit when Kerry relied on Nam heavily at the convention to make himself more appealing to voters.
It bothers me more when Vets with obvious political axes use misrepresentations and assumptions salted with whatever to prop up slander or unprovable allegations.

And the discharge story is more of the same.
Nixon was not the sort of man to miss an opportunity to do anything to an enemy.
So Kerry comes home and joins the VVAW and this really rattles Nixon's cage.
Nixon is quoted as wanting to deal with Kerry specifically.
Here's a likely scenario for the discharge innuendo.
Kerry, the anti-war Naval officer, has a reserve commitment.
While Nixon, the commander in chief, has a grudge.
Ooops sorry about your discharge,
That is entirely plausible and more likely than Kerry had some bad paper.
In particular a dishonorable discharge, that is some serious bad paper.
If Kerry had serious misconduct behind him Nixon or some other right wing politician would have used it and named facts, long ago.
Furthermore; a real dishonorable discharge, if it ever existed, would be hard to sweep away, for any reason except perhaps being a clear abuse of power and illegal in its application in the first place.
That's one reason why I am prone to disregard, that and consider the source and timing...

If all of the allegations and snide trashing were all ironed out and laid flat would not be much to look at.
But as a constant patter of drips it gets more attention.
Drips and drops before the election.
Full disclosure from all the politicians on everything important would be nice, but few would be left standing.
In Kerry's case his service and antiwar actions seem positive to me, and neutral to most others.
Maybe emotions are to high maybe you want better, maybe you just want to beat a dead horse of an issue.
Fine with me vote for the other guy.
That would be the guy who earned no medals, and coincidently had none, to loose or toss away.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

daidhaid

walkin' slack
Dec 29, 2003
572
25
73
easily defended high ground
✟881.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
More he said he said.
Ultimately it's more about today than yesterday, anyway.
I'd rather hear more candidate talk about healthcare, ending corporate abuse of the people, corruption reform, and getting Iraq to stand on it's own with us gone.
And no permanent bases in the area.

Progressive policy instead of samo samo.
We need a third party, where's a miracle when ya need one.
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
daidhaid said:
More he said he said.
Ultimately it's more about today than yesterday, anyway.
I'd rather hear more candidate talk about healthcare, ending corporate abuse of the people, corruption reform, and getting Iraq to stand on it's own with us gone.
And no permanent bases in the area.

Progressive policy instead of samo samo.
We need a third party, where's a miracle when ya need one.



Kerry used his four months and twelve days in Nam as the focus of his DNC acceptance speech-He opened the door regarding the matter.

Ah yes, the Progressive policy-New terminology for the Liberal Agenda.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

winteralfs

Active Member
Aug 31, 2004
46
3
✟181.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Even as President Bush apologized for the abuses by the military under his command, questions have resurfaced about allegations that Kerry, his Democratic challenger for the presidency, made about the behavior of US troops in Vietnam three decades ago....



Three weeks ago, Kerry said his allegations were a "little over the top," even as he pointed out that many atrocities have been documented.

But the question remains: How widespread was the abuse by American troops in Vietnam?

"There were atrocities, without any question," Robert McNamara, the Vietnam-era defense secretary, said in an interview. "We had photographs of officers shooting innocent Vietnamese. I would say it was not intentional, at least through the hierarchy of command. But I don't think enough attention was paid to it by the chain of command."

The official US record on wartime atrocities in Vietnam is that 278 members of the armed forces were convicted of war crimes in an eight-year period. But some historians say that atrocities were much more widespread than that, although perhaps not as common as Kerry asserted.

The most notorious Vietnam atrocity was the My Lai massacre on March 16, 1968, in which at least 175 civilian men, women, and children and possibly as many as 400 were killed by US troops.

In 1971, Kerry shocked many Americans and caused great consternation in the Nixon White House when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about alleged atrocities that went far beyond My Lai.

A decorated combat veteran, Kerry based his remarks partly on the Winter Soldier hearings in Detroit, which featured 150 veterans telling their stories in a forum financed partly by actress Jane Fonda. Kerry told the Senate that soldiers "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn."

One of Kerry's most publicized allegations, that soldiers cut off heads, became the subject of scrutiny by US officials as Kerry was preparing to testify in 1971, according to a report published last year by The Toledo Blade. The newspaper said that in February 1971 the US Army was examining an allegation that a soldier had cut off an infant's head. The 2003 Pulitzer Prize-winning series also said that Army investigators found that more than 100 civilians may have been killed and that 18 soldiers committed war crimes; none was charged.

Stanley Karnow, author of "Vietnam: A History," said there is no question that atrocities occurred on both sides in the Vietnam War. Indeed, Karnow said Kerry made a mistake on "Meet The Press" last month when he backed off some of his allegations about atrocities and war crimes.

"He could have dealt with it forthrightly by saying atrocities were committed by everybody," Karnow said.

In 1971, Kerry blamed the atrocities on a culture that began at the top, and he accused leaders in Washington of setting a tone that condoned the outrages. In the Iraqi abuse scandal, Kerry once again raised questions about the involvement of people high in the chain of command.

But even some former Kerry commanders who acknowledge that atrocities occurred in Vietnam said they have believed for 33 years that Kerry wrongly tarred them. While Kerry has not specifically said that his own commanders acted improperly, his 1971 statement was sweeping and targeted even himself. "I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones," he said.

Kerry went on to say that the people who designed the strategy of firing on anyone who violated that curfew zone "are war criminals."

Retired Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann, who was ultimately responsible for ordering Kerry into the free-fire zones, took such offense at Kerry's allegations that he organized last week's gathering of veterans to criticize the Democratic presidential candidate, which drew several of Kerry's former commanding officers, along with some other officers who served with Kerry. While many of those critics were Republicans, they insisted they were motivated by Kerry's allegations, not his standing as a Democrat.

Kerry's close friend, David Thorne, who was at his side during the 1971 protests, said that Kerry was not trying to blame his own commanders. Rather, Thorne said, Kerry's aim was to "break through the public apathy."

"Fourty-four thousand people had died, and no one was listening," Thorne said, referring to the number of US war dead at that time.

But the retired officers who criticized Kerry said he misled the public by lumping together documented atrocities like My Lai with his complaints about the inhumanity of the US military's policy on free-fire zones.

They also questioned whether the 1971 testimony of veterans at the Winter Soldier hearings in Detroit was accurate. They pointed out that one of Kerry's fellow antiwar leaders was found to have misstated his service record, and they cited reports that some of the Winter Soldier testimony has been discredited.

Asked about those assertions last month on Meet The Press, Kerry said: "A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have."

One of Kerry's former commanders, Coast Guard Captain Adrian Lonsdale of Massachusetts, said he has no recollection of Kerry ever expressing concern about atrocities during their conversations while in Vietnam. Lonsdale was among those who said he opposed Kerry on grounds that he falsely made allegations about atrocities. "I do not know what happened during the interrogation of captured Viet Cong," he added. "My experience is that about 90 percent of our personnel were moral, compassionate, patriotic Americans, trying hard to follow the rules and do their duty for their country. Perhaps 10 percent were misfits, half of whom already had problems before they arrived in Viet Nam. Atrocities probably were committed, but they would have been isolated incidents."
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.