Vaccinate? yes or no? 2 babies die, dozens hospitalized after vaccination in southern Mexico

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KitKatMatt

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Guess what, with millions of children getting vaccinated every year and the normal time for the first signs is in that age range there will be some instances where the first signs of autism are seen immediately following vaccination.

This reminds me of the people who insist that getting the flu shot can give you the flu, because they know someone who came down with the flu a day after getting the shot without knowing that they had already been incubating the virus for days.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Bolding mine.

Yea those do seem a bit excessive, especially since it seems historically tar was hot tar often resulting in disfigurement or death.

But I'd be quite happy to go a step or two in that direction for a small part of the anti vax community. One could compare the anti vax movement to the magic elixir sales of a century ago, but there the line is clearer. There are those selling a hoax product and those buying it. I have little sympathy for the sellers. When it comes to anti vax I have little sympathy for those who are knowingly selling lies. That is reversed for those who in innocence have swallowed the lies.

This thread started with one incident and some of those sellers of lies immediately mislead others to believe the incident occurred because of a bad batch of vaccine when that was extremely unlikely. Anyone stopping to think, check dates and the percentage with problem in the one village would have realized that. It takes time to travel to an isolated village. That is time for other vials from the same batch to be used elsewhere. It is possible, it could be that the first box in the stockroom of that batch went out while there were still several from previous batches in stock, but doubtful.

But the professional anti vaxers immediately jumped to the conclusion it was a bad batch. If instead they jumped to the right conclusion and said the most likely reason was local contamination and touted that as one more danger I could at least try to think they were honestly concerned. (Of course doing that would be treading dangerously close to admitting that this would most likely not have occurred if vaccines still contained Thimerosal).

I'm hoping those on this thread who have concerns about vaccines will bother to go back and make note of the anti vax sources who were seemingly intentionally misleading people and discount those sources in the future.

On a personal note I recently got a shingles vaccination. It had been a mañana thing for a while but mañana came about a month ago. An expensive vaccine $193, fully covered by insurance for me, others are not so lucky.

This brings me back to the 8th grade when were were discussing The Scarlet Letter and Nathaniel Hawthorne's use of the theme of manipulation as the greatest evil in many of his works. Most laypeople who are passionately opposed to all vaccinations are honest and have integrity, but are acting upon the falsehoods and fabrications of those who have abused their positions of authority and manipulated their knowledge. Or of Philip K (edit - haha, his surname has been censored by the site; it's D*ck) quote, "the basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them."

From merely the headline of the article this person posted here, readers who are not as trained in identifying credible sources from unreliable ones will be swiftly emotionally swayed. It relies upon a seize of emotions. It plays with feelings about sensitive and volatile subjects:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...lief-correlation.7892044/page-6#post-68201408

Once hearts are tugged forward, minds are less likely to slow down and deliberate with reason. It's a stark contrast from the simple, dispassionate truth that doesn't have the same dramatic narrative:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/13/world/americas/ap-lt-mexico-deadly-vaccines.html?_r=0

That's why people such as Andrew Wakefield, the "father of the anti-vaccination movement" are so nefarious, and Mercola and J.B. Handley so grossly irresponsible. Their manipulations cause others to make decisions with good intentions but with bad information.

Anyway. It's good you got the shingles vaccine and that it was covered by insurance. The shingles were horrific. For one, it begins as an invisible but increasingly painful and tormenting problem, so you are in a state of distressed bewilderment. It's so insidious. I was at the memorial service for a teacher last year when I began to feel this deep, bizarre pain and itchiness on my back. A friend went into a bathroom stall with me so I could lift up my dress and show her my back to see if there was anything on it. There wasn't. My back looked completely normal. There were no exterior signs that would explain the shrieks beneath my skin's surface. I thought that perhaps I'd injured it in tennis or dance in some quirky way. I even wondered if it was something psychosomatic because I'd really adored that teacher and felt a debt of gratitude towards her.

Despite having two physicians in the family it just didn't dawn on me to tell them and seek their help. The tenderness deep under the skin and itchiness persisted for more than a week before the skin actually became red. Still, even when the rash first appeared I didn't think it was shingles because I was 16 then and in all the commercials for the shingles vaccine you see old people feeling tortured. I'm obsessive with fragrances and thought maybe I was having an allergic reaction to this Scentsy laundry enhancer I'd overused when I'd washed my leotards. I kept trying over the counter treatments and being baffled as the rash spread out from my back, to under my right arm, and branched across my chest. I finally showed my mom when the blisters appeared and she knew what it was and rushed me to the UCLA clinic that was still open at that hour to get the antivirals, and then called my dad and doctor. It ended up being a bigger deal because of Addison's. You're supposed to start taking the antivirals within the first 72 hours of the appearance of the rash, but I was already 5 days in at that point. I felt like a moron. It was more awful than people can even imagine. It feels like having a hot iron pressed against your skin, poison ivy, and a hornet of wasps attacking you all at once. And then when it's finally done there's this neuropathy thing going on for a while. I used to maintain a blog and I wrote out a detailed post about my experiences and tips for specific products, coping mechanisms, and home remedies for shingles. I checked the view count and traffic for it before I shuttered the blog last month, and it had over 55,000 views with lots of the traffic coming this site for senior living. As in like seniors in life, not seniors in high school. Kids my age should not have severe cases of shingles. >.<
 
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stray bullet

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What would you say to a child who developed autism immediately after getting a vaccine that the parents said they didn't want given to the child in the first place?

Since there is absolutely no evidence that supports autism results from vaccines, you don't need to say anything.

There was one paper published by a scientist who received $625,000 from a group of lawyers seeking to sue pharmacies and the results were proven fake.
 
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Armoured

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Since there is absolutely no evidence that supports autism results from vaccines, you don't need to say anything.

There was one paper published by a scientist who received $625,000 from a group of lawyers seeking to sue pharmacies and the results were proven fake.
Interesting the same people who dismiss with a handwave any rigorous, peer reviewed scientific study that makes observations they don't like, will go to the mat demanding Wakefield's study is unimpeachable.

Evolution is "just a theory" but the autism/vaccine link is a law of nature.
 
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stray bullet

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Interesting the same people who dismiss with a handwave any rigorous, peer reviewed scientific study that makes observations they don't like, will go to the mat demanding Wakefield's study is unimpeachable.

Evolution is "just a theory" but the autism/vaccine link is a law of nature.

Some people like conspiracy theories because the world is easy to live in when you think everyone is under control.
 
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The Cadet

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But the professional anti vaxers immediately jumped to the conclusion it was a bad batch. If instead they jumped to the right conclusion and said the most likely reason was local contamination and touted that as one more danger I could at least try to think they were honestly concerned. (Of course doing that would be treading dangerously close to admitting that this would most likely not have occurred if vaccines still contained Thimerosal).

Age of Autism is not about autism. It's about vaccines. This is evident with every single thing they publish.

Well, why not? It doesn't seem that Christians (with all of our "conspiracy theories") should be allowed a religious exemption to anything else they want us to put into our body, why not a microchip? They could reason that if you don't accept it, you're just holding back progress for everyone else in society. They could say you're harming your children by not taking the microchip because now you can't buy for them, and then use that as justification to take them from your home.

Precedents are being set all the time now. When they can force you to put a vaccine into your body, they can use that precedent to force you to put anything else in your body that they deem to be "necessary".

...Do you honestly not see any significant difference between a vaccine and a microchip like that? Here's a hint: a vaccine protects you and everyone around you from infectious diseases. It's not just your problem when you're not vaccinated.

What would you say to a child who developed autism immediately after getting a vaccine that the parents said they didn't want given to the child in the first place?

"What an unfortunate coincidence."

Plenty of medical information on vaccinations at this link and its own links:

http://search.mercola.com/results.aspx?q=autism vaccines

It's perhaps worth noting that this is the same Mercola who endorsed the theory that cancer is a fungus. No, really. This happened. He has since removed it, as it is insane even for his lax standards, but the point remains that Mercola.com is about as reliable for health information as NaturalNews or Whale.to. Any information you get from that website regarding health is almost certain to be wrong.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mercola

But what you're dismissing is the fact that it has happened on more than one occasion. It needs to be addressed rather than dismissed, especially in the case of a parent who is truly concerned with vaccine safety.

No, it hasn't. There have been cases where children have been vaccinated, then developed autism, just like there have been cases where adults who have been vaccinated and then got into automobile accidents. However, these correlations need to be explored to determine if there was any causation. There isn't. Study after study after study has examined the link between vaccines and autism, and come up with nothing. Vaccines do not cause autism. This is known and understood, and any appearance that your vaccine caused autism is simply mistaking correlation for causation.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Parents, who have received advice from their paediatricians, to not have their children vaccinated, they do have good reasons, for that choice, yes. Most others, they do not. There are, a few exceptions, here, and there, yes, of course. It is not a surprise, no, that you refuse to judge, or criticise, the parents, who refuse to vaccinate their children, against their paediatriciain's advice, considering your own stance, on the matter. You have been content, to posts blogs & such, on this place, that criticised, and judged parents, who vaccinate, and have pushed for stricter laws, requiring vaccinations, for school. Trust me, you have posted more than enough, already. The point I was making, was that of all the places, on the internet, you decided to post the judgmental blog "Dear Parent of an Immunocompromised Child Who thinks My Child is a Threat" on here. It was very critical, of parents of immunocompromised children, who wish for more healthy children, to be vaccinated, to support herd immunity, and protect their kids. This was posted, on this place, at the same time, you knew your friend, who was active here, was under quarrantine, after being exposed to the measles, as she is an immunocompromised child. The saying, salt, in the wound? I suggested, you reconsider, the timing of that post, but no, this did not suit you.

Everyone knows, there is widespread opinion, on this topic, that is not going away soon, yes. There are also those, who believe the moon landing was a conspiracy, 9/11 a hoax, man & dinosaur lived alongside each other, ect, ect, ect, yes? They aren't going away, either, no. That's exactly why, laws & regulations, have to be made, regarding vaccines. When I was in the U.S., some of my colleagues, they told me, about measles outbreaks, in the 90s, that killed several children. People say, oh there's not been so many outbreaks, in the U.S, but the laws, they are to help prevent, bigger outbreaks, for happening again. In Sweden, we have had laws, for a long time, with not so many complaints. We see vaccination, as a social responsibility. Little reason, for a big fuss.

To be fair, I did encourage her at the beginning of the year to utilize this site while learning about vaccines because there are several people here who have solid scientific understanding and reliable knowledge about them, and I was hopeful they could be of assistance to her. She'd been admitted to a lovely Christian college that has a firm vaccination policy as a condition for enrollment, as is common for many colleges in the United States. It's comparable to the policy at my own college. All students must submit proof of their immunizations if they cannot provide a letter from their doctor detailing a legitimate medical reason for exemption, or go through a rigorous and virtually unwinnable appeal process to justify their religious or philosophical reasons for noncompliance. If they don't fulfill that condition they cannot attend, which is a colossal loss of opportunity. I hadn't wanted something relatively simple and resolvable to be a barrier in her path. Of course my primary suggestion was to simply talk with her doctor, but posting here was a secondary one I made. In retrospect it was a naive idea because so many threads - particularly the ones over the winter - have been flooded with false and faulty information that it makes it all the more challenging to filter out and sift through what is factual and valid. My original concern is no longer valid anyway because Canadian universities have less stringent policies regarding vaccines. Yes that post in particular you're referencing was a little bee that stung me at the time, but that was five months ago and the sting has worn off. I sincerely do appreciate the points you're making, but I'm not wanting more unneeded tension between you two. It's summer. All that happened in the 2014-15 school year is history.
 
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Saricharity

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Blue Wren, I have refrained from posting a lot more only because of Artemis. I regret ever approaching you on the topic. I wanted to learn from you because I thought you were kind and knowledgeable. Instead, it feels like a witch hunt. I also don't want any more tension between us so please just pretend I don't exist. Have a wonderful year at medical school and I wish you all the best. :)

I have learned much on this topic and others doing my own research and not from just from websites. I stand by my firm belief that parents should have the right to choose and shouldn't be forced. Artemis is correct. In Canada, we have a choice.

On another note and this is a general comment.
I was speaking with a woman whose daughter just graduated from a medical program in the states. The topic came up about vaccines and school because she was asking me about my college plans. She had three of her children's titers done so she could see what immunities her kids had...she is very much against vaccines. One of her daughters had immunity to most diseases so she said she switched names on the report and sent it in with her daughters enrolment and no one was the wiser. There was no way she was going to allow her child to receive any vaccines. She was that adamant. I wonder how often this does and/or might happen because parents are not being allowed a choice. Some food for thought.
 
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NightHawkeye

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One of her daughters had immunity to most diseases so she said she switched names on the report and sent it in with her daughters enrolment and no one was the wiser. There was no way she was going to allow her child to receive any vaccines. She was that adamant. I wonder how often this does and/or might happen because parents are not being allowed a choice. Some food for thought.
Great point. People with strong opinions/needs will continue to make a choice ... though they may do so "under the radar" using subterfuge.

As with illegal immigration, having inaccurate vaccination information is in nobody's best interest. The law of unintended consequences always comes into play when government is overbearing and intrusive on matters best left to individuals.
 
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Loudmouth

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I have learned much on this topic and others doing my own research and not from just from websites. I stand by my firm belief that parents should have the right to choose and shouldn't be forced. Artemis is correct. In Canada, we have a choice.

In countries like ours we decided that people making dumb decisions is one of the problematic side effects of having a free society. What we also have the freedom to do as a society is ostracize parents who make really bad health care decisions for their children (and other children) based on bunk science.

The tough part is understanding where the line is between a stern but productive talking to and a berating that won't change minds. With shows like Dr. Oz and the sudden glutten fads, it is quite apparent that people can be easily misled. In fact, it seems that they want to be misled in some cases.

On another note and this is a general comment.
I was speaking with a woman whose daughter just graduated from a medical program in the states. The topic came up about vaccines and school because she was asking me about my college plans. She had three of her children's titers done so she could see what immunities her kids had...she is very much against vaccines. One of her daughters had immunity to most diseases so she said she switched names on the report and sent it in with her daughters enrolment and no one was the wiser. There was no way she was going to allow her child to receive any vaccines. She was that adamant. I wonder how often this does and/or might happen because parents are not being allowed a choice. Some food for thought.

Misleading anecdotal evidence is exactly what is used by those who push bunk science.
 
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bhsmte

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People are not allowed to go out in their backyard and fire a gun in the air. Why? Because someone may get hit with that bullet, when it comes down.

People who refuse to vaccinate and have no legit health reason to not be vaccinated are basically doing the same thing, they are firing bullets in the air and eventually, some people are going to be hit.
 
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NightHawkeye

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People are not allowed to go out in their backyard and fire a gun in the air. Why? Because someone may get hit with that bullet, when it comes down.

People who refuse to vaccinate and have no legit health reason to not be vaccinated are basically doing the same thing, they are firing bullets in the air and eventually, some people are going to be hit.
Here are the factors in the risk equation:

1) Risk from small percentage of population unvaccinated
2) Risk from government forced vaccination

The first risk will always be small for a "good" and inexpensive vaccine.
The second risk historically gets very large on occasion.

Which one do you choose? :scratch:
 
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bhsmte

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Here are the factors in the risk equation:

1) Risk from small percentage of population unvaccinated
2) Risk from government forced vaccination

The first risk will always be small for a "good" and inexpensive vaccine.
The second risk historically gets very large on occasion.

Which one do you choose? :scratch:

How do you measure the risks of mandatory vaccines, that don't include forcing those to get vaccinations with legit health reasons not to?
 
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keith99

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People are not allowed to go out in their backyard and fire a gun in the air. Why? Because someone may get hit with that bullet, when it comes down.

People who refuse to vaccinate and have no legit health reason to not be vaccinated are basically doing the same thing, they are firing bullets in the air and eventually, some people are going to be hit.

Nor are people permitted to just dig an outhouse or use a chamber pot and throw it out into the street. Both of these were common a couple of centuries ago when childhood death be disease was also.
 
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Aldebaran

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What if the government required me to get surgically implanted wings so that I could fly everywhere instead of adding to the traffic?

Oh good! Now we're having an intelligent conversation!
If you didn't want surgically implanted wings, then you shouldn't have to get them.
 
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Aldebaran

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What would you say to the child who got hit by a car shortly after being required to eat his vegetables?
That there's no evidence that one caused the other?

Strawman argument. Getting hit by a car doesn't involve injecting something into the body.
 
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I asked first. Answer my question and I will answer yours.

Oh yeah? Well, my question is more important! So you answer mine first! :p
 
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