Utah issues same-sex marriage licenses.

buzuxi02

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That's surprising. Every study and survey shows that the most supportive demographic for LGBT rights, feminism, etc., is the young. The exact opposite of what you are claiming. Could you provide a source, please?

Yes go and speak to the young people I know. There sick and tired of being told to be effeminate. Go to an enclave of young black and Hispanic men and see what they think. Its not in agreement with the media portrayal nor with the 'metrosexual' clichés of the college campuses.
 
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There are so many misconceptions about Christianity's view on homosexuality which is why many judges misunderstand the whole gay-marriage debate.

Misconception 1: Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus mention homosexuality

Jesus did not talk explicitly about many things. For example, Jesus did not talk about zoophilia. Does that mean he thought it was ok to have sex with animals? Ofcourse not!The Gospels (which talk about Jesus and his teachings) are contained in only 4 books out of 66 books in the Bible and out of 27 books in the New Testament. Jesus did not have to talk about homosexuality because he lived in Palestine where homosexuality was rarely practised. Whereas Paul mentions it because he was a Roman citizen and travelled throughout the Roman empire as a missionary were homosexuality was widely practised (for instance, he talks about homosexuality in his epistle to churches in Rome and Corinth). And dont forget the fact that Paul was a Christ-follower and is known as an ‘Apostle of Christ’. We Christians believe that his epistles which constitutes 13 out of 27 books in the New Testament were inspired by the Holy Spirit and obviously, Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. It is impossible for the Holy Spirit to think homosexuality was wrong and Jesus to think otherwise. That contradicts the very nature of Trinity. Moreover, it is evidently clear from Biblical and other 1st century Christian literature that homosexuality was considered an abomination by early Christians who lived during and after the time of Jesus.

Misconception 2: Christians are not being oppressed by proponents of homosexuality but Christians are oppressing homosexuals by saying homosexuality is wrong.

Believing and saying homosexuality is wrong is NOT oppression. And we dont call you ‘Christophobe’ or ‘bigots’ or ‘haters’ when you disagree with us. We are not physically oppressed (yet). But we are mentally. Try saying homosexuality is a sin in a mainstream media platform (except Fox News) or in a New York/London street or even in Youtube. The abuse we get is numerous.And many Christians in Europe have lost their jobs for being negative about homosexuality on Twitter and other social media. But Jesus did say that the world will hate us for believing in him. (Mt. 10:22,15:18). So, we will preach the truth…no matter what may happen to us.

Misconception 3: By legalising gay marriage, the government is not forcing you to marry the same gender. If you dont like gay marriage, dont marry gays!

We argue against gay marriage not because the government is forcing us to marry the same gender. We are against it because the word ‘marriage’ by definition is exclusive. Exclusivity is what makes marriage unique and without it marriage is simply an emply word. In other words, marriage is a union between heterosexuals and raising a biological family is an essential purpose of marriage. Procreation is what makes biological family possible which homosexuality obviously cannot. (P.S. The infertility argument does not apply here because infertility is an exception not the rule). Thats why many Christians are ok with the phrase ‘civil partnerships’. When the government allows gay marriage, it is essentially taking the side of homosexuals and discriminating against us. And such a stand will be reflected in current and future laws regarding marriage which will increase prosecutions against those of us who are against the redefinition of marriage. Either the government drop out from the whole marriage business or use the term ‘civil partnership’. That is all we ask for.

Misconception 4: Marriage is a legal right. Religion did not invent it.

Marriage is not a government invention. The states did not get involved in marriage in the US until after the civil war and the federal government only got involved in 1921. The reason was economic. Marriage has always been religious and social and throughout history it has always been between heterosexuals. Gay marriage is state-sanctioned re-definition which the government does not have any right to do according to the Constitution. ‘Civil partnerships’ will solve the economic issue and covers the legal rights that married couples have. Those arguing for gay marriage instead of civil partnership are doing it deliberately to discriminate against the religious.

Misconception 5: Jesus said, ‘Do not judge’. You are judging homosexuals when you say homosexuality is wrong.

Saying homosexuality is a sin/wrong is not ‘judging’. When I say ‘murder is a sin’, I am not judging anyone. I’m simply stating a moral truth. If I say, ‘homos are the worst people on earth and they’re all going to hell’ then we’re judging and some among us are guilty of that. I agree. But that does not change the moral fact that homosexuality is sin and wrong.

For 5 more misconceptions please visit my blog at christcentrist . com
 
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tapi

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More on the same subject.

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Abbot Tryphon said:
STANDING AGAINST VIOLENCE
The Struggle for Peace Must Begin With Me

After yesterday's essay concerning the Orthodox priests who were part of a mob attack on a homosexual demonstration in the country of Georgia, I was reminded of a photo I have in my archives. Instead of leading a violent attack, and being photographed bashing a trash can against the window of a bus that was trying to leave the area with the gay demonstrators aboard, this Greek Orthodox priest had placed himself between violent demonstrators and the police in an attempt to shield police officers from Molotov Cocktails.

Unlike the Georgian priests, this priest is attempting to stop violence. This same image could have played out if the priest or another citizen were to step in to prevent a woman from being assaulted on the street, or a child from being bullied on a playground, for violence has no place in the life of a Christian. We are called to be peacemakers by Christ. In Matthew 5:9 Jesus tells us, "blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God".

The canonical injunction against a priest involving himself in any form of violence is so strong as to prevent him from hunting animals, or killing chickens for his dinner table. I remember an Orthodox clergyman who was suspended from serving Liturgy for six months, because he used physical violence to fend of two muggers.

Too often we pass right on by, ignoring assaults on others. I'm not suggesting we always place ourselves in danger, but if our intervention can deescalate a bad situation, it is our duty to step in. Christ did so when the crowd threatened to stone the woman caught in adultery, and we, as His disciples, are called to do the same.

How better it would have been if the world's media had been able to publish photos of Georgian Orthodox clergy placing themselves between the angry mob and the gay demonstrators, for by doing so these priests would have been imitating the Lord's protecting the woman who had been caught in adultery. Had these clergy placed their lives on the line for these homosexuals, the world would have been inspired, and would have seen the image of the Prince of Peace showing forth in His servants.

Love in Christ,

Abbot Tryphon
 
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rusmeister

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CF forums rules: ● Do not promote illegal activity.

Violence is illegal behavior. Peaceful protesting is not.. I would like you to point out where I posted anything in AW that violates Eastern Orthodox thought. EO can serve in the military and taking a life even in self defense requires confession and absolution from a priest. My post is keeping in that spirit
Hiya, Seven!
I'd like to point out that civil disobedience is by definition illegal, and that the CF rule would have to be superceded if someone was advocating forcing a Christian business to specifically support immoral activity that HAS become legal, such as providing wedding services to a homosexual couple.

Rules are rules. But valid exceptions CAN be found to the rules.
I do not advocate violence, but I DO advocate political action and civil disobedience when the law requires us to support immorality, and as I said, the latter is illegal, but sometimes necessary. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and it requires discernment to determine when a thing is not Caesar's.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I think we all know that Phil IS a Christian. this is not Ozzy Osborne throwing out a Bible verse
Maybe I am the only one that understood your post this way, but to me the above post implied that IF you were quoting the Bible you are a Christian when people can quote the Bible without being a Christian and Christians do not quote the Bible every time we state our views.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Maybe I am the only one that understood your post this way, but to me the above post implied that IF you were quoting the Bible you are a Christian when people can quote the Bible without being a Christian and Christians do not quote the Bible every time we state our views.

no, hahaha, GLAAD said that Phil was NOT Christian for what he said about gays, and what he said was a Bible verse.
 
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buzuxi02

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The photo demonstrates to how low the homosexual loving media is willing to stoop. Here we have two youths (take note kelhus) tossing Molotov cocktails at police who are far off. But it's the homosexual mob who are the victims even though they too engaged in violence. Funny how they were bussed in, but the youth drove them out of their community.
 
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The photo demonstrates to how low the homosexual loving media is willing to stoop. Here we have two youths (take note kelhus) tossing Molotov cocktails at police who are far off. But it's the homosexual mob who are the victims even though they too engaged in violence. Funny how they were bussed in, but the youth drove them out of their community.

Um, yeah, do I need to point out the priest in that photo jumping in front of the children to block them from attacking the police?

The only time I've seen this photo is when Orthodox clergy or bloggers are using it as an example of WHY orthodox should embrace nonviolence, as there is an Orthodox priest there trying to stop those kids. You are the first person I've seen trying to use it to make the exact opposite point. It really falls flat.
 
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Cappadocious

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wedding services
I think that American Christians ought to see the "threat" of having wedding services (professional catering, dining halls, limo, photography, etc.) made open to homosexuals, as an opportunity.

An opportunity for us Christians to finally shed these services.

Too long has the American Church suffered the decadent customs of the west: Five-hundred dollar wedding cakes. Professional photography when a neighbor's camera, or a friend's, or rental camera would look just as good to an average man's sensibilities; expensive dining halls to house excessive amounts of guests, and catering services that run into the thousands. RSVP weddings. Limo rides. Expensive dresses bought and kept for just one day, never to be used again.

These things have nothing to do with Christ or the Church. They transform an occasion celebrating martyrdom in humble festivities, into an obscene display of alienating "expert" and "professional" technical execution at unnecessary cost.

Many who funded these things in the past did not do so, I'm sure, out of ill intent, but out of generosity; but we have the opportunity, nonetheless, to make a change for the better.

God sends all things; perhaps he has sent this to remind us where treasure truly lies, and what services truly need defending.

While the worldly expect Christ's Church to be scandalized by this development, let us instead scandalize the world with how we choose to interpret it.
 
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Two things:

a.) I absolutely LOVE this idea and wholeheartedly endorse it!
b.) It'll never work in a million years; Orthodox couples getting married are going to want their cake, photos, and pomp....


I think that American Christians ought to see the "threat" of having wedding services (professional catering, dining halls, limo, photography, etc.) made open to homosexuals, as an opportunity.

An opportunity for us Christians to finally shed these services.

Too long has the American Church suffered the decadent customs of the west: Five-hundred dollar wedding cakes. Professional photography when a neighbor's camera, or a friend's, or rental camera would look just as good to an average man's sensibilities; expensive dining halls to house excessive amounts of guests, and catering services that run into the thousands. RSVP weddings. Limo rides. Expensive dresses bought and kept for just one day, never to be used again.

These things have nothing to do with Christ or the Church. They transform an occasion celebrating martyrdom in humble festivities, into an obscene display of alienating "expert" and "professional" technical execution at unnecessary cost.

Many who funded these things in the past did not do so, I'm sure, out of ill intent, but out of generosity; but we have the opportunity, nonetheless, to make a change for the better.

God sends all things; perhaps he has sent this to remind us where treasure truly lies, and what services truly need defending.

While the worldly expect Christ's Church to be scandalized by this development, let us instead scandalize the world with how we choose to interpret it.
 
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buzuxi02

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Um, yeah, do I need to point out the priest in that photo jumping in front of the children to block them from attacking the police?

The only time I've seen this photo is when Orthodox clergy or bloggers are using it as an example of WHY orthodox should embrace nonviolence, as there is an Orthodox priest there trying to stop those kids. You are the first person I've seen trying to use it to make the exact opposite point. It really falls flat.

Personally I think this is the only photo that exists. That this is the photo the media twisted into saying many clergy were involved in riots.

If the photo shows 2 anti-gay protesters throwing Molotov cocktails (with a clergyman trying to stop them) and on the other side next to the police are the gay activists, why haven't I seen in the media reports that the gay activists also used the same tactics?
Between the priest and the protesters afar off there is an obvious man wearing a hoodie, this attire is the custom garb of those that partake in civil disobedience and he's on the other side standing with gay activists. Thi attire and tactics are used throughout the Balkans as well, on both sides of the aisle regardless of what there protesting. Peaceful orderly protest is more of an American phenomenon. But my point is plenty of youngsters are fed up with these activists and are willing to engage them and the police who are ordered to shield them.
 
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Dorothea

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some Church Father said that toward the end of the age, someone just saying they are a Christian will be the kind of witness that the martyrs gave in the early centuries, that the faith will be that slack.

Do you mean that it will be so rare and out of fear, many people won't say they're Christians, and so the ones that do are the only ones that truly believe and would die for their faith?
 
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Dorothea

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Gay people are allowed civil marriage and this means that the "battle is lost?" What battle exactly? Our country hasn't exactly been spreading Christian values across the world the past several decades. Our economic values have turned most of the world into slaves to their televisions and iphones, just like we are. We have turned inappropriate contentography into a multi-billion dollar enterprise, while also spreading it free of charge to anyone on earth who wants a peek. We prance around the world wherever we like starting wars, or maybe worse, just killing people with our drones with total impunity.

We promote radical individualism at the expense of community and real human relationships, which does incalculable harm to our notions of personhood and true Christian love, with no end in sight.

But Utah says the gays can get married in courthouses and that's the sign that the battle is lost?

I think we're going to have to come to an understanding that we may be moving into a transition period where the Church exists totally separate from the State, much like it was in the beginning. That presents significant challenges, but also very many opportunities. There's a certain measure of freedom to it. We can sit around and sulk about it or we can get to work. The work is not following politics and getting all worked up over government problems....it's loving our neighbors, friends, family, strangers, enemies, and especially homosexuals.
Excellent points.
 
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rusmeister

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Do you mean that it will be so rare and out of fear, many people won't say they're Christians, and so the ones that do are the only ones that truly believe and would die for their faith?

I don't think that time will come until the people en masse get tired of the nominal label of "Christian" and drop it. For now the trend will be to continue to self-identify as Christian and to say that Jesus's message was to do what you want and be nice (unless you don't get what you want).
 
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Dorothea

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"How can we combat evil in the world if we all withdraw from it?"

That same question could be asked of the monastics who live in monasteries apart from the world. It's been said that the prayers of the monastics sustain the world. They pray when we who are in the world cannot.

Nonetheless, a certain assumption is being made here I feel about the idea of banding together in communities. The assumption seems to be that if one were to do so, we are abandoning the world to retreat into our shell for our protection.

This is not what living in a Christian community or koinonia means. Everything that we do, no matter what, is always oriented towards our Lord who came not to be served, but to serve.

While we band together to live in community, these communities I'm envisioning will be located pretty much anywhere, in urban, suburban, and rural areas. We will naturally reach out and serve our respective communities while at the same time living in a context in which yes, we are protected, but not sheltered from the "vices" of the world while cultivating the virtues.

While the Amish are famous for their baked goods and farmer's markets (and good baked goods they have!) they are also famous for how they respond to sin that has been committed against their community. Take for example the Amish school shooting that took place a few years ago. What a witness of forgiveness there were in how that Amish community responded. Who knows what impact that made on anyone. However, the mere fact that they live in such communities is always a reminder of a different way of life and a different choice, or alternative to what the world offers to "worldly" people. The NT (in one of St Peter's epistles I think, but I could be wrong) says that we are to be a "peculiar" people.
We (especially our children) need to be protected from the contrary "values" of the world. Again, I don't mean "sheltered", or that we should put our heads in the sand and let the world go to hell around us. But, living in community will reinforce the holy evangelic life in each other so that we can go out and serve the world around us.
I hadn't thought about this community thing before. It does sound like a very good idea. I admire the Amish for sticking to their beliefs and not going with the flow of the world and all the technological advances (although, I know there are some small groups that do have some tech stuff, but not sure they're considered true Amish). I think that Orthodox communities would be wonderful for providing love, support, and helping each other out like in the old Christian communities back in the early centuries of the Church.
 
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buzuxi02

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Due to real estate law It would be very difficult to organize in such communities. The small villages I visited in Greece retained the basic idea of Greg's post. They were established before the automobile thusjust the simple geographic layout itself promoted cohesiveness. The Church fenced to be on the highest ground and tallest building. The Church is the focal point of all that is good. Weddings, baptisms, feast days, and the celebrations with folk dance and foods that follow.
 
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Dorothea

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I don't think that time will come until the people en masse get tired of the nominal label of "Christian" and drop it. For now the trend will be to continue to self-identify as Christian and to say that Jesus's message was to do what you want and be nice (unless you don't get what you want).
Oh, Yes, I see. I've been seeing the two sides of the idea of "Christian." There's the one extreme side that I witnessed on a friend's thread talking about something bad that happened about a Christian issue just a week or so ago, and a friend of hers answered with "God will get them." Then there's the other side that I saw that said Jesus is a hippy and never said anything about abortion or homosexual marriage. Both sides are distorting who God truly is. It gets frustrating at times, and I wanted to respond, but I let it go for a day or so, and prayed then decided why should I comment? People know where I stand on these issues.

And your comment on the "get tired of the nominal label of "Christian" and drop it. This is that I believe Fr. Tom was saying about Christians apostatizing. Really, what point is there to believe anything when everything has been watered down and you've formed your own "god" to what you want Him to be?
 
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