Utah issues same-sex marriage licenses.

[truthseeker32]

My home state, one of the most conservative in the country, is now legally recognizing same-sex marriage. If this isn't a sign that the battle is lost I don't know what is.

Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage | The Salt Lake Tribune

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy! polygamy is also should be legal in Utah as well.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As Rus has reminded us, this issue will overshadow every land.....it's inevitable. The world is becoming post-Christian. Secular atheism abounds, people have turned their eyes away from the Lord. Up is down, left is right. Science is a religion and everything is hate speech. "haters" is the charge anyone and everyone throws at you. Abnormal disordered living is the new normal. The more bizarre the better. "Modern Family" is the rubric for a healthy core unit from which to raise children.

It is becoming intolerable to be a Christian in such times. As Matt said, Lord have mercy! I'm going to Confession before Vespers tomorrow. One thing I need to confess (along with a laundry list of other failures and sins!) is that sometimes I almost give into despair as the world crumbles around me. I feel like part of the Fellowship of the Ring on the way to Mordor and everyone around me is an orc or in bed with Sauron! :o

 

[rusmeister]

"The cloud of the Dark Side covers all."

It will help to deliberately cut yourself off from news sources, to spend extended time away from "the news".

 

[ArmyMatt]

As Rus has reminded us, this issue will overshadow every land.....it's inevitable. The world is becoming post-Christian.

indeed. the whole thing with GLAAD and Phil Robertson......they actually said that Phil was not being Christian when he quoted the Bible. sad times are ahead.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The liberal folks I know used to laugh at me when I said that this LGBT agenda will eventually penetrate EVERYTHING in our society to the point that, sooner or later, priests and parishes will be SUED for not "marrying" those who struggle with same-sex attraction. They laughed at me and saw me as a loon. Now we already are hearing about gays suing over this and that. It WILL happen.

I agree with Rus about ignoring the news....to a certain point. And I also agree that we mustn't think we can change the world through just politics, but I do think keeping abreast of the issue to a certain degree and making sure we fight back is important in that we don't want our parish churches to be penetrated by the LGBT troopers....

indeed. the whole thing with GLAAD and Phil Robertson......they actually said that Phil was not being Christian when he quoted the Bible. sad times are ahead.

 

[buzuxi02]

Homosexual marriages will end as soon as governments are over thrown. All excesses reach a pinnacle which follows a bust. Just like incorporating a small business exists because such a business form is recognized and allowed by the government. But once the government ceases this artificial creature known as gay marriage will also cease to exist.

 

[Dorothea]

The way things are going in this country reminds me of what Fr. Tom Hopko said in his lecture called Armageddon and Christianity, where he said killing Christians for their faith won't be necessary toward the end of the age. His mentor had told him this back in the 1990's when the U.S.S.R. was still in power. He had told Fr. Tom that what will happen is not the killings and throwing people in jail, but the apostatizing of the Christians (the believers) themselves. That what has always been taught will be watered down or distorted or changed and this will bring about the apostatizing if I remember correctly. I've seen some of that. I don't know if we are in that age yet though or not.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The way things are going in this country reminds me of what Fr. Tom Hopko said in his lecture called Armageddon and Christianity, where he said killing Christians for their faith won't be necessary toward the end of the age. His mentor had told him this back in the 1990's when the U.S.S.R. was still in power. He had told Fr. Tom that what will happen is not the killings and throwing people in jail, but the apostatizing of the Christians (the believers) themselves. That what has always been taught will be watered down or distorted or changed and this will bring about the apostatizing if I remember correctly. I've seen some of that. I don't know if we are in that age yet though or not.

some Church Father said that toward the end of the age, someone just saying they are a Christian will be the kind of witness that the martyrs gave in the early centuries, that the faith will be that slack.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Gay people are allowed civil marriage and this means that the "battle is lost?" What battle exactly? Our country hasn't exactly been spreading Christian values across the world the past several decades. Our economic values have turned most of the world into slaves to their televisions and iphones, just like we are. We have turned inappropriate contentography into a multi-billion dollar enterprise, while also spreading it free of charge to anyone on earth who wants a peek. We prance around the world wherever we like starting wars, or maybe worse, just killing people with our drones with total impunity.

We promote radical individualism at the expense of community and real human relationships, which does incalculable harm to our notions of personhood and true Christian love, with no end in sight.

But Utah says the gays can get married in courthouses and that's the sign that the battle is lost?

I think we're going to have to come to an understanding that we may be moving into a transition period where the Church exists totally separate from the State, much like it was in the beginning. That presents significant challenges, but also very many opportunities. There's a certain measure of freedom to it. We can sit around and sulk about it or we can get to work. The work is not following politics and getting all worked up over government problems....it's loving our neighbors, friends, family, strangers, enemies, and especially homosexuals.

 

[Mariposa36]

My home state, one of the most conservative in the country, is now legally recognizing same-sex marriage. If this isn't a sign that the battle is lost I don't know what is.

Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage | The Salt Lake Tribune

Dude, where in the bible does Jesus say "thou shall ask the state for a marriage license and receive tax breaks and the ability to make end-of-life decisions for the spouse." NOWHERE! SS couples are not asking for a Christian marriage, they want the same recognition from the state any other couple receives.

Personally, I believe in privatizing marriage, but until that happens, this is a step in the right direction.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It's a step in the right direction if you're a secular humanist atheist, yes. Otherwise, your opinion is quite out of line with Orthodox thinking on morality and the state of marriage.

Dude, where in the bible does Jesus say "thou shall ask the state for a marriage license and receive tax breaks and the ability to make end-of-life decisions for the spouse." NOWHERE! SS couples are not asking for a Christian marriage, they want the same recognition from the state any other couple receives.

Personally, I believe in privatizing marriage, but until that happens, this is a step in the right direction.

 

[RKO]

Gay people are allowed civil marriage and this means that the "battle is lost?" What battle exactly? Our country hasn't exactly been spreading Christian values across the world the past several decades. Our economic values have turned most of the world into slaves to their televisions and iphones, just like we are. We have turned inappropriate contentography into a multi-billion dollar enterprise, while also spreading it free of charge to anyone on earth who wants a peek. We prance around the world wherever we like starting wars, or maybe worse, just killing people with our drones with total impunity.

We promote radical individualism at the expense of community and real human relationships, which does incalculable harm to our notions of personhood and true Christian love, with no end in sight.

But Utah says the gays can get married in courthouses and that's the sign that the battle is lost?

I think we're going to have to come to an understanding that we may be moving into a transition period where the Church exists totally separate from the State, much like it was in the beginning. That presents significant challenges, but also very many opportunities. There's a certain measure of freedom to it. We can sit around and sulk about it or we can get to work. The work is not following politics and getting all worked up over government problems....it's loving our neighbors, friends, family, strangers, enemies, and especially homosexuals.

Wow. This may be the single best post on this matter I have ever read. Well said!

 

[rusmeister]

I think people who have no children are going to tend to speak differently from those who do. The Orthodox Christian without kids is going to be thinking primarily of how all of this impacts him as an individual. The one with kids is going to be thinking about his kids. I think having children tends to improve your perspective.

A line from Harry Potter (by Dumbledore) keeps coming up for me:
"In my time I have seen truly horrific things. Now I know you'll see worse."

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

QFT. My wife and I talk all the time about the perilous, sickening, wayward times we live in and how our children will live in the greatest persecution of Christians perhaps in centuries. It is a sad time to live if you're a serious Christian in so many ways. It is for this reason that we must pray SO HARD for our children and raise them staunchly in the Orthodox way. We must be mindful of our modeling and every move we make. We must pray for God's anointing to be poured out on these kids like a torrent. We must look at it through the eyes of warfare. I know I see the sacraments as medicine and weaponry against the diabolical. I thank our Holy Trinity so much that He has counted us worthy to enter into His sacramental life, Rus. We're so blessed. And we must hope in HIM each day.

Thanks for this BEAUTIFUL post!

I think people who have no children are going to tend to speak differently from those who do. The Orthodox Christian without kids is going to be thinking primarily of how all of this impacts him as an individual. The one with kids is going to be thinking about his kids. I think having children tends to improve your perspective.

A line from Harry Potter (by Dumbledore) keeps coming up for me:
"In my time I have seen truly horrific things. Now I know you'll see worse."

 

[truthseeker32]

Dude, where in the bible does Jesus say "thou shall ask the state for a marriage license and receive tax breaks and the ability to make end-of-life decisions for the spouse."

Jesus doesn't explicitly condemn a lot of things we consider immoral. Do you seriously believe that morality should be dictated solely by the explicit statements of Christ, or might we maybe be able to figure out what is implied or what logically follows from the bigger picture? I for one am glad to be entering into a tradition that rejects sola scriptura.

NOWHERE! SS couples are not asking for a Christian marriage, they want the same recognition from the state any other couple receives.

The problem is that ideas matter! Americans have become unable to see this. They define "harm" narrowly, thinking that as long as something doesn't cause immediate and obvious "harm" (whatever that means) it isn't wrong. How sad it is that all morality means anymore is "butt out." By condoning same sex relationships we are sending a message that all marriage is is a contract of self-interest that people have the right to enter into. I prefer sending the message that marriage is a calling to die to yourself and devote your life to others.

I would also prefer that the government stay out of defining marriage as well, but if they insist on butting in on the issue then I would prefer that marriage be promoted as more than just a contract between consenting adults.

That being said, we have a tendency to get caught up in this issue and villify those who struggle with same-sex attraction to the point that it is harmful. There are a lot of other sins out there that are just as bad, and the abusive tone some take is driving those who struggle with same-sex attraction to harmful behavior and even suicide. I definitely don't like this.

 

[rusmeister]

The reason that homosexuality is drawing special fire is because it is a sin that is trying to establish status as a "non-sin". I agree that adultery, fornication, inappropriate contentography and masturbation deserve equal fire, but these are essentially lost battles in the social arena. But there is still is broad public opinion that agrees that some forms of sexual "expression" are wrong, so it is still possible to stand up and oppose them with some hope of (if only short-term) success.

 

[kellhus]

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but New Mexico also legalized same-sex marriage today.

New Mexico legalizes same-sex marriage - U.S. News

New Mexico became the latest state to legalize gay marriage Thursday as its highest court declared it is unconstitutional to deny marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples.

Justice Edward L. Chavez said in a ruling that none of New Mexico's marriage statutes specifically prohibits same-gender marriages, but the state's laws as a whole have prevented gay and lesbian couples from marrying. The justices said same-sex couples are a discrete group that has been subjected to a history of discrimination and violence.

"Accordingly, New Mexico may neither constitutionally deny same-gender couples the right to marry nor deprive them of the rights, protections and responsibilities of marriage laws, unless the proponents of the legislation — the opponents of same-gender marriage — prove that the discrimination caused by the legislation is 'substantially related to an important government interest,'" Chavez wrote.

New Mexico joins 16 other states and the District of Columbia in allowing gay marriage either through legislation, court rulings or voter referendums.

 

[GregConstantine]

"We promote radical individualism at the expense of community and real human relationships, which does incalculable harm to our notions of personhood and true Christian love, with no end in sight."

As I read the comments on this tread, I asked myself, "what are we going to do about this?" Obviously, coming on here and preaching to the choir isn't going to do anything.
One thing that frustrates me about issues such as this is how there is such a lack of an appropriate response to the ills of society that we bemoan about all the time.

I quoted what Innerphyre said about community because personally, I think that is what has to happen. We Orthodox need to do something similar to what the Amish and Mennonites do. They live in very tight nit communities where the virtues Christian living as they understand it is reinforced by the fact that they live in a semi monastic form of community. And guess what? Everyone knows about the Amish. I've never met anyone who never heard of the Amish. But, do I meet almost every day people who have no idea about Orthodoxy.

I've attempted to propose the idea of living in a much tighter communal setting amongst single Orthodox people and proposed the idea of an Orthodox coffee house that was also going to be adjactent to living quarters for non monastic single Orthodox people.
However, I could not garner enough support for this. Unfortunately, the radical individualism that Innerphyre speaks of has permeated even us. Orthodox people in this country are far more concerned about their careers and their immediate blood family etc.

 

[InnerPhyre]

"We promote radical individualism at the expense of community and real human relationships, which does incalculable harm to our notions of personhood and true Christian love, with no end in sight."

I quoted what Innerphyre said about community because personally, I think that is what has to happen. We Orthodox need to do something similar to what the Amish and Mennonites do. They live in very tight nit communities where the virtues Christian living as they understand it is reinforced by the fact that they live in a semi monastic form of community. And guess what? Everyone knows about the Amish. I've never met anyone who never heard of the Amish. But, do I meet almost every day people who have no idea about Orthodoxy.

I've attempted to propose the idea of living in a much tighter communal setting amongst single Orthodox people and proposed the idea of an Orthodox coffee house that was also going to be adjactent to living quarters for non monastic single Orthodox people.
However, I could not garner enough support for this. Unfortunately, the radical individualism that Innerphyre speaks of has permeated even us. Orthodox people in this country are far more concerned about their careers and their immediate blood family etc.

That's the best part about Seminary so far. The students, faculty, administration, families, monks, and regular parishioners all live in such a community here in rural PA. It's shocking when I leave the community and go back out into the rest of the world and see the difference in how people treat each other.