Universalism

[stranger]

Preaching the Gospel doesn't magically make people go to heaven. Some people choose not to follow Jesus for what seems like very good reasons (such as, they aren't convinced).

Yes indeed, and the gospel taught these days by sinners is not what jesus taught either! [see the thread link below]

Many millions of people have died without even heard of Jesus , many children very sadly die before or shortly after birth or long before they can understand words ... clearly their opportunity to be taught the whole truth by God [John 16:13] ,as He promises to all [Joel 2:28] is in the next life , not in this life ...

discussion on the salvation of the many and how modern religion is mistaken:-
http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

Quite simply Jesus came only for a few in this life, and said so and why , the few later minister in the salvation of the many :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

 

[stranger]

Matthew 7:23 is talking about false prophets not sinners in general. See verse 15.

Matt 7:21 is the beginning of a new paragraph , it reads :-

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

This says it is about the many who call Jesus their Lord but do not do his commandment to love, remaining sinners, not having stopped sinning...

It is a completely separate paragraph about these people ,a description which fits the vast majority of modern Christian sinners.

Jesus says that he will say that never knew them if they are still sinning and disobeying him when he returns.

but these many sinners are saved later , he says this too [Rev 7:9-10]

see the thread discussing about it :-
http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

Try getting a bible that shows you the paragraph structure , it is rather important .

 

[Hentenza]

Matt 7:21 is the beginning of a new paragraph , it reads :-

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

This says it is about the many who call Jesus their Lord but do not do his commandment to love, remaining sinners, not having stopped sinning...

It is a completely separate paragraph about these people ,a description which fits the vast majority of modern Christian sinners.

Jesus says that he will say that never knew them if they are still sinning and disobeying him when he returns.

but these many sinners are saved later , he says this too [Rev 7:9-10]

see the thread discussing about it :-
http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

Try getting a bible that shows you the paragraph structure , it is rather important .

I read either the NKJV or the NASB which have paragraphs, however, that does not change the meaning. Hermeneutically verse 22 confirms whom Jesus is taking about as those who "prophesize, cast demons, and do things in His name" which ties in with verse 15 as being false prophets. The garden variety sinner is guilty of sins of the heart like pride, etc.

 

[stranger]

Outragous and completely unscriptural.
I feel sorry for you guys. Hacking away at scripture is bad enough, but adding text is strictly forbidden.

You got one thing right, the last age IS eternal, but no where in scripture does it say sinners come back. It says everyone is brought from their place for the great throne judgement and all whos name is not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire along with satan, and death and hadies. The new heaven and new earth come after the last judgement. No one stands before the judge after they are thrown into the lake of fire. And revelation 21:8 puts the emphasis on it:
Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

That is it, done, sorry, hard news to swallow, but anything else is a lie from satan.

see what Jesus says is the alternative by going the broad way of the many by which uncountably many ares aved:-
http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

 

[stranger]

I read either the NKJV or the NASB which have paragraphs, however, that does not change the meaning. Hermeneutically verse 22 confirms whom Jesus is taking about as those who "prophesize, cast demons, and do things in His name" which ties in with verse 15 as being false prophets. The garden variety sinner is guilty of sins of the heart like pride, etc.

Jesus qualifies whom he is talking about in Matt 7:23 by contrasting it with whom he will take at his return :-

...but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[Matt 7:21]

Thus making it clear that he is talking about those who do not depart from disobeying him as lord [Matt 7:21] , do not depart from iniquity.

To make the paragraph even more clear, it should be apparent that all the divided Christian denominations prophesy about the salvation of sinners and are thus prophesying , Jesus is simply pointing out that sinners prophesying are false prophets , and the division of christianity in countless fragments simply shows logically , undeniably, the vast amount of false prophecy within Christianity , something Jesus and the saints prophesied [but they weren't sinners when they did so]

Your 'hermeneutics' is very ingenious spin ,but doesn't hold up to deeper scrutiny ... the scripture says what it says, it is not up for interpretation according to the saints ,[although I know sinners say it is, and invented 'hermeneutics' to create the modern divisions in Christianity that never existed between the saints because of the holy spirit giving all truth [only] to those who followed Jesus and so obeyed him and became saints [John 16:13]

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

It is fine for sinners to discuss scripture until we receive baptism of the spirit and no longer need teaching [because God teaches the saints Himself ,under the new covenant -Heb 8:8-12]

but the problems arise when sinner Christians start pretending that they must be right and even accusing others of heresy , when hermeneutics simply doesn't end up with one truth of God from scripture, but is mostly abused to just try and prop up presumed dogma and doctrines that divides sinners...

Matt 7 makes the point that one is wasting one's time if one's religion does not deliver all truth of God so that one does not need the teachings of men ... cos' on will still be a sinner by Jesus' return and join the billions of other sinners taking the broad way to Jesus after death as a sinner :-

http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

As proof the point is made in other scripture too , e.g. :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

[where it makes no reference to false prophets, to underline the point]

and:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Where it is set in stone, the very foundation of God, the seal of the holy spirit, is to stop sinning , no-one justly names Christ until they stop disobeying him , he cannot be lord of those who disobey him by continuing to sin :-

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[wayseer]

You caught a big dose of religion off some sinners, it will take a lot of care and prayer if you want to stop sinning before Jesus returns ... if not then see what Jesus says is the alternative by going the broad way of the many

I find your broadside at Tim uncalled for, inappropriate and out of place. I have my disagreements with Tim but have never question his commitment to God as you have done here.

Caught a big dose of religion off some sinner

- now what is that suppose to mean? Apparently you have not be so 'caught" Bully for you.

For someone who professes to know the scriptures your arrogance is astounding. Something about beams and eyes comes to mind when I read your posts.

 

[stranger]

I find your broadside at Tim uncalled for, inappropriate and out of place. I have my disagreements with Tim but have never question his commitment to God as you have done here.

It was meant as friendly advice, not as a 'broadside', following scripture is not that easy in a world full of sinners who prophesy any number of tales ...
anyway, since you misunderstood, I have deleted it , since it is not necessary and perhaps inadvisable, to offer advice... you might like also to consider that we are all on the same side , trying to beloving inobedience to Jesus . it doesn't prevent misunderstanddings ? Sorry

- now what is that suppose to mean? Apparently you have not be so 'caught" Bully for you.

Well I was an atheist until thirty-odd years ago , which was long enough to have realised that God's truth is not divided like modern religion of sinners is...

For someone who professes to know the scriptures your arrogance is astounding. Something about beams and eyes comes to mind when I read your posts.

yes well, God and I are already working together on that one, ,but like my comment , it disrupts the thread when we stop discussing the topic and start discussing each other ... so lets get back to the topic then ,shall we?

 

[timlamb]

Thanks wayseer

There is so much twisting and perverting of scripture I will not quote it just to see it abused. I have dealt with these kind before, the truth is not in them. Oh they believe a form of Christianity, born in the minds and egos of man.

 

[Tissue]

But logically that alone disproves the theory of universalism. God created a real world with real beings which have the free will to accept Him or reject Him. God loves us all and will not drag anyone kicking and screaming to heaven. There are no second chances. Either we accept Him in this life or forever suffer away from His presence.

Assumptions: 1) That we have free will. 2) God would not override our will.

Perhaps the first one has possible argumentation for it based on Scripture. On the other hand, it's not without its own controversy. I think the second is entirely groundless.

 

[stranger]

Assumptions: 1) That we have free will. 2) God would not override our will.

Perhaps the first one has possible argumentation for it based on Scripture. On the other hand, it's not without its own controversy. I think the second is entirely groundless.

Most people believe that things are caused [but God is time-less and one cannot have cause without time] ...
if we accept that our very way of thinking is based on accepting that causes exist for things of this world, then there can be be no independence of human will ... it has serious implications about the judgment of men by men and men by God ... so is causality accepted here or not [with the exception of God]?

Scripture rather explicitly denies freedom of mankind to cease from sinning until faith in love is given as God reveals all truth in spirt baptsim [john 16:13 :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Clearly very few know all truth before they die in this life and most die sinners, not saints , but god does promise that all will recieve all truth direct from Him by His spirit [not from religion or from men at all] -Joel 2:28-

Thus all will be enabled to stop sinning after the resurrection of the unjust
after the millennium :
http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

God clearly does not intend that more than a few [Matt 7:14] are first redeemed that Jesus' return and we see then how He controls that by only baptising those He chose from the beginning to know all truth now, , he only requires a few as priests and kings in the kingdom before the millennium, getting them ready to serve as perfect preiests and kings when the many are resurrected afterward...

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The point then is that there is no freewill here , but predestination , and so it is equally true that those not baptised of the spirit in this life are chosen to be sinners all their life for sake of the timing of God's plan :-

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Thus the delusion of the many is of God because they are not baptised to know all truth and be able thus to defeat Satan , so to be able to stop sinning and follow Jesus as lord [obeying his command to stop sinning, to love]

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God has control then, completely, through knowing the truth... given His truth He knows that those He chose as His people from the beginning will be His saints in this life , the new covenant states this explicitly too [Heb 8:8-12] , hence their forgiveness is unmerited [grace]and unconditional in the new covenant ,which is only explicitly with those descended from the one's who broke the old covenant , Israel ... Jesus repeats this certainty about their descent from Jacob in Rev 7:3-8 and their sealing by the holy spirit.

Thus there is no free will here, it is certain that the chosen few will be first and be the kings and priests, administering when the many are resurrected after the millennium to have their chance at salvation by works [since they are freed of sin in this life by their (first) death -Romans 6:7 ]

It is clear then that the promise of God to baptise all flesh with His spirit [Joel 2:28] did not occur in this life [since very few died knowing all truth of God -john 16:13] and equally obvious that all men will not be alive again unti after the second resurrection, after the millennium, after the kingdom is established... thus we know God baptises the many in order that countless many are saved [Rev 7:9-10] after the millennium , and thus this is the reason for getting the priests and kings ready first , so that they can administer the salvation of billions after the millennium...

The salvation of the many is thus caused by God's truth which they did not have in this life [and so they could not resist Satan in this , they remained sinners until death then , and God did this because He requires the kingdom set up first ready to deal with over 12 billion all at once]

God's plan is thus a power plan , Jesus came only for 144,000 first [Rev 7:3-8] and then each of them administers to a similar number after the millenium... it is an efficient way of dealing with the massive numbers involved... and it is determinate , governed solely by when God gives His truth to sway the will of men to giving up on sinning...

There is a third phase to God's plan , the final trial of the lake of fire, but that is for another thread I think.

The point is that God is not overriding the will of men, He simply knows who will be convinced by His truth [and indeed who will not , who will have to prove that unlovingness does not work in the lake of 'fire' ]...

God knows exactly the effect of His truth on every person with countless many God's truth will convince them , others will hold out until they are shown the harm unlovingness does to them selves as well as others... it is determinate, and God knows the answer, but it is not overriding men's will,
many do fight against accepting God's will right to the end of time [but that's another thread too, time does end in scriptural prophecy.]

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Preaching the Gospel doesn't magically make people go to heaven. Some people choose not to follow Jesus for what seems like very good reasons (such as, they aren't convinced).

But preaching the gospel tells people of that choice they have; either they can be with Him or they can go against them. But they were told the good news, their choice after that is theirs to make. We are not asked to convince people, we are asked to plant the seed and that God will give the increase.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
"How beautiful are the feet of those who
preach the gospel of peace,
who bring glad tidings of good things!"
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:14-18

Some people choose not to follow Jesus for what seems like very good reasons (such as, they aren't convinced).

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopague and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious. 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Acts 17:22-31

If they are not convinced that's their choice, but God has placed them in the right place so that they may seek Him. And if you look at the context, Paul is talking to the Greeks in Athens whom worship every other man-made god except the Living God.

 

[wayseer]

... It disrupts the thread when we stop discussing the topic and start discussing each other ... so lets get back to the topic then

Your words are not true. It was you who 'discussed' Tim? It was you who derailed the thread. It is you who is arranging scripture to suit your own agenda. It is you who are claiming yourself as the great saviour of humanity.

There is a well know Buddha saying - if you come across Buddha on your path, kill him.

 

[Hentenza]

Jesus qualifies whom he is talking about in Matt 7:23 by contrasting it with whom he will take at his return :-



Thus making it clear that he is talking about those who do not depart from disobeying him as lord [Matt 7:21] , do not depart from iniquity.

To make the paragraph even more clear, it should be apparent that all the divided Christian denominations prophesy about the salvation of sinners and are thus prophesying , Jesus is simply pointing out that sinners prophesying are false prophets , and the division of christianity in countless fragments simply shows logically , undeniably, the vast amount of false prophecy within Christianity , something Jesus and the saints prophesied [but they weren't sinners when they did so]

Your 'hermeneutics' is very ingenious spin ,but doesn't hold up to deeper scrutiny ... the scripture says what it says, it is not up for interpretation according to the saints ,[although I know sinners say it is, and invented 'hermeneutics' to create the modern divisions in Christianity that never existed between the saints because of the holy spirit giving all truth [only] to those who followed Jesus and so obeyed him and became saints [John 16:13]

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

It is fine for sinners to discuss scripture until we receive baptism of the spirit and no longer need teaching [because God teaches the saints Himself ,under the new covenant -Heb 8:8-12]

but the problems arise when sinner Christians start pretending that they must be right and even accusing others of heresy , when hermeneutics simply doesn't end up with one truth of God from scripture, but is mostly abused to just try and prop up presumed dogma and doctrines that divides sinners...

Matt 7 makes the point that one is wasting one's time if one's religion does not deliver all truth of God so that one does not need the teachings of men ... cos' on will still be a sinner by Jesus' return and join the billions of other sinners taking the broad way to Jesus after death as a sinner :-

http://www.christianforums.com/t7363399/#post51533068

As proof the point is made in other scripture too , e.g. :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

[where it makes no reference to false prophets, to underline the point]

and:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Where it is set in stone, the very foundation of God, the seal of the holy spirit, is to stop sinning , no-one justly names Christ until they stop disobeying him , he cannot be lord of those who disobey him by continuing to sin :-

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I can not agree with your interpretation. All sin. All. You sin. I sin. There is no one without sin (except Jesus). What you are advocating is salvation by works which is impossible. No one can make themselves righteous in the eyes of the Lord. Justification is a free gift not something that anyone can earn.

My advise to you is to trust the Lord not yourself.

 

[wayseer]

I can not agree with your interpretation. All sin. All. You sin. I sin. There is no one without sin (except Jesus). What you are advocating is salvation by works which is impossible. No one can make themselves righteous in the eyes of the Lord. Justification is a free gift not something that anyone can earn.

My advise to you is to trust the Lord not yourself.

From another sinner - Amen!

 

[stranger]

I can not agree with your interpretation. All sin. All. You sin. I sin. There is no one without sin (except Jesus). What you are advocating is salvation by works which is impossible. No one can make themselves righteous in the eyes of the Lord. Justification is a free gift not something that anyone can earn.

My advise to you is to trust the Lord not yourself.

So you disagree with the saint [and claim he is not a saint but a sinner?]:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

What part of the phrase 'depart from iniquity' makes you think that I am interpreting it when I say it means 'stop sinning' ?

 

[timlamb]

Here is how you do it.

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[d] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You take a verse like this and say it means everybody. But you leave out the qualifier back at verse 28:

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

For every verse used to support Universalism, their is a qualifying statement very close pointing out the subject in the statement.

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

God is in charge and who are we to question or say to Him, "My God would not do that":

6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

End of Story:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

 

[stranger]

Many are redeemed from hell by works after the first death :
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Why bother toresurrect from a second death for continued sin, if not for the opportunity of the enduring mercy of God? ... there would be no point if there were no escape from the lake of 'fire' , the final trial .

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Thus even from the lake of fire there is a way back by mercy and everything in heaven and earth and under the earth will accept Jesus as lord , that is enough to be saved, obeying Jesus ...

 

[timlamb]

=stranger;51545072]Many are redeemed from hell by works after the first death :
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Why bother toresurrect from a second death for continued sin, if not for the opportunity of the enduring mercy of God? ... there would be no point if there were no escape from the lake of 'fire' , the final trial .

I don't know where you come up with this stuff. Those dead "in Christ" are raised in the first ressurection. Following the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth the second and final resurrection of the dead includs all who have been ever born upon the earth. We who are in Christ and those who are not all all given our "Day in court" and judged by our works. But, remember, works can't get you into heaven. Those who have accepted salvation are judged for their reward. those who have not recieved Jesus are not in the book of Life:
"13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

You seem to like to leave out verse 15, the second death, and there is no resurrection from the second death recorded in scripture, so either you are adding to scripture, or you are adding to scripture.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Thus even from the lake of fire there is a way back by mercy and everything in heaven and earth and under the earth will accept Jesus as lord , that is enough to be saved, obeying Jesus ...

You notice it says that God exhaulted Him and gave Him that name that, "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow" Oh, every living thing will know He is Lord, but they will still refuse Him. Satan knows He's Lord, and He will again take possession of creation, but you read into this what isn't there, but it is understood from all scripture, that most though they drop to their knees on the day of judgement, they will be hardened against him and cast into the lake of fire and the second death.

 

[ListenerFriendly]

I'm not going to get tangled into the arguments here--simply note a fact. I know a fellow musician friend who attends a universalist church on occasion. While certain points I do disagree with him on, he almost makes me feel guilty. He is so accepting of others. He listens, then he discusses. He accepts what you say is valid for who you are. Even if he is in complete disagreement, he can see the other person's perspective. I respect that. And while he struggles with life just as much, maybe more, than I do. He can be so accepting.

I will mention that I believe that there is a way, a truth, and a life. But also this deal about hell is not a truth. Hell is not a place and that isn't a biblical doctrine. I am not bashing anyone's opinions here. Hell is simply a final cleansing of evil, an eternal separation from God.

Enough said from me,
much peace

 

[stranger]

I'm not going to get tangled into the arguments here--simply note a fact. I know a fellow musician friend who attends a universalist church on occasion. While certain points I do disagree with him on, he almost makes me feel guilty. He is so accepting of others. He listens, then he discusses. He accepts what you say is valid for who you are. Even if he is in complete disagreement, he can see the other person's perspective. I respect that. And while he struggles with life just as much, maybe more, than I do. He can be so accepting.

We know from Matt 7:14 that FEW go by th narrow strait way [of saints] in this life

We know from Rev 7:9-10 that uncountatbly many of all nations are saved afterward according to Jesus and that they won't even be resurrected until after the Millenium :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

So the broad way leads countless many to salvation at a very different time than the few saved at Jesus' return ... this is not opinion, or interpretation, it is simply what Matthew and Jesus say , read it yourself, prove it yourself, decide if you believe Jesus or not ... it is your choice of what to believe, but at least read what Jesus says instead of listening to interpretations by sinners...

The advantage of reading the scripture is that one can come to understand that Jesus predicted that the whole world would , indeed MUST go the wrong way in religion bar the few [tens of thousands only according to Enoch and Jude 1:14, exactly 144,000 according to Jesus - Rev 13:3-4]... so one can see that divided religion of sinners of this world has to go wrong as one might deduce from the division , but it really doesn't mean that the many are all lost , it does however mean that they are saved after the Millenium ,not by the diverse priesthoods of sinners of this world and their many teachings by interpretation which one can see are just diverse 'spins' incompatible with even the above passages spoken by Jesus ...

there is no point in not accepting what people believe if people's minds are set, because if their beliefs are false [as some of the divided beliefs inevitably must be, if not all] then it is God who deludes them for a while :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

One is not going to get anywhere by dsipute, one can only point at what Jesus actually said which shows the inconsistencies of the religion of sinners with the words in scripture of the saints and Jesus.

It is very hard really to confuse a saint and a sinner , but that is the way of modern religion ,despite that scripture says that they go separate ways to all accepting Jesus in the end:-

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

the new covenant shows one will get nowhere by preaching , Paul's attempts to teach the gentiles about Israel ended up in apostasy as Rome forced by arms a new religion on people and eliminated or scattered the Hebrew saints who followed Jesus.

It truly had to happen, according to scripture [2 Thessalonians 2] , else Jesus would never rule on earth with his saints as the only kings and priests ministering at last to the masses.

I will mention that I believe that there is a way, a truth, and a life. But also this deal about hell is not a truth. Hell is not a place and that isn't a biblical doctrine. I am not bashing anyone's opinions here.

It truly is determined what most will believe for now

Hell is simply a final cleansing of evil, an eternal separation from God.

Enough said from me,

How on earth did yu reach that conclusion ???
whilst separation from God would be unbelievably unpleasant if it were possible, it is not so because the spirit belongs to God and returns to Him at death ,according to Solomon :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

'hell' is something that happens at death and hell gives up the daed according to Jesus :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
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much peace

Again, Jesus says NOT , peace comes in fanal rest in the spirit, not now :-

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The division at Jesus return is very simple according to Jesus, he simply takes those who have stopped sinning :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

The very principle of acceptance to God is t OBEY Jesus ad love, stop all sin , stop breaking God's law:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

One cannot really have it any more plainly stated , by a saint, but the fact is that almost no-one wil believe this or what Jesus says, because of modern religious teachings by sinners ... remarkable, almost incomprehensible to me, but Jesus says it must be so and indeed it is , Jesus also explains why .. the kingdom is just not ready for over 12 billion to be ministered to perfectly in al truth [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] until after the Millennium.

So it seems that no-one here will see these words even though they could read them in their own bibles for themselves... it is a fascinating phenomenon that men prefer the familiar divided religions of sinners to what Jesus and the saints say... it seems to be a social or herd instinct thing, but I confess that I cannot fully comprehend it yet... why are so few interested in finding out all taht Jesus said? It surely has nothing to do with interpretation cos' he speaks very plainly ...

God points out how useless Pau's 'proselyting' will be in the new covenant itself :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

One is forced to conclude then that Paul's work, taken over and paganised by Rome, was just the first stage of the 'great delusion' ofmenkind by religion that terminates in the unity of the world opposing the few saints left alive by then [maybe a couple of thousand only]