Universal reconciliation

[DrBubbaLove]

This last statement is where you are in error, we do not say God does evil, which you say we do by combining creating and doing as the same thing .... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME .... just because God created evil ... that IN NO WAY means that He does evil .... just because I can create a spear out of a piece of wood does not mean I am going to DO evil with it .... I'm going fishing because the fishing pole hasn't been invented yet ...

We were talking of more than just creating an object which could then be used for either good or bad, which is actually closer to the orthodox concept of creating creatures with free will - making evil a potential depending on how they use what God made them.
No, instead and opposed to those thoughts you are suggesting God would create a creature that not just could (potential) but MUST do wrong. It would be the same thought as holding me innocent of creating a tool that could ONLY be used for abortions. There is no contingency there at all, just one use and it is evil. If I know the use of the tool and I make and it is only an evil use in this case, how is it possible to claim creating that tool must be a good thing for me to do? IOW how could it NOT be evil for me to make/create such a tool? How could I be said to not be DOING evil in making such a tool?

Complete the thought. The claim is God makes imperfect creatures - which in this context can only mean at least a little evil (not all good), which then means that just by creating such a creature evil is not just one potential, it is a reality as soon as that creature is made.
So complete that thought.
God who we both say is All Good, imagines a creature that is not good, even if only a little not good - which is to say a little bit evil. Your claim then is that God, who be we both say is All Good, desires that this creature exist. Which means then that God desires evil to exist, not just desire that it MIGHT be possible (from free will) but God desires to make evil real - to create it. IOW you are saying ALL Good wants what is opposed to ALL GOOD - EVIL.
So you want to see God, who we both say is All Good, wanting to make a creature that WILL (not just might choose by a free will) work against that which is All Good - Himself. Which means the claim is God wants evil to exist and wants to create something that WILL (not maybe) work against Himself. So your claim says God sets His Good and Perfect Will towards making a reality of a creature that works against His Good and Perfect Will. Which means you have God Willing evil to exist, and then acting (doing) something to make that evil exist.

So if that is really what you are claiming (and I fail to see how it is not), do you not see the difference between saying God creates a creature that MIGHT choose evil and saying God creates a creature that MUST choose evil (if only a little bit)?

 

[jugghead]

We were talking of more than just creating an object which could then be used for either good or bad, which is actually closer to the orthodox concept of creating creatures with free will - making evil a potential depending on how they use what God made them.
No, instead and opposed to those thoughts you are suggesting God would create a creature that not just could (potential) but MUST do wrong. It would be the same thought as holding me innocent of creating a tool that could ONLY be used for abortions. There is no contingency there at all, just one use and it is evil. If I know the use of the tool and I make and it is only an evil use in this case, how is it possible to claim creating that tool must be a good thing for me to do? IOW how could it NOT be evil for me to make/create such a tool? How could I be said to not be DOING evil in making such a tool?

Complete the thought. The claim is God makes imperfect creatures - which in this context can only mean at least a little evil (not all good), which then means that just by creating such a creature evil is not just one potential, it is a reality as soon as that creature is made.
So complete that thought.
God who we both say is All Good, imagines a creature that is not good, even if only a little not good - which is to say a little bit evil. Your claim then is that God, who be we both say is All Good, desires that this creature exist. Which means then that God desires evil to exist, not just desire that it MIGHT be possible (from free will) but God desires to make evil real - to create it. IOW you are saying ALL Good wants what is opposed to ALL GOOD - EVIL.
So you want to see God, who we both say is All Good, wanting to make a creature that WILL (not just might choose by a free will) work against that which is All Good - Himself. Which means the claim is God wants evil to exist and wants to create something that WILL (not maybe) work against Himself. So your claim says God sets His Good and Perfect Will towards making a reality of a creature that works against His Good and Perfect Will. Which means you have God Willing evil to exist, and then acting (doing) something to make that evil exist.

So if that is really what you are claiming (and I fail to see how it is not), do you not see the difference between saying God creates a creature that MIGHT choose evil and saying God creates a creature that MUST choose evil (if only a little bit)?

Did God create the serpent in the garden? Is there any good in him?

 

[2KnowHim]

Evil was a real entity that existed outside of God from the beginning. As long as His Creation remained in Him, it was perfect, but once He puts His hands to form it, (as a potter would) then it is exposed to that entity outside Himself. It is made subject to all sorts of Vanity. But with The Lamb being slain before the foundation of the earth, He had already made a way to put that entity to death Once for All, Through His Son/His Word.

If God would have never brought His creation forth to a physical manifestation, (outside Himself) evil would have nothing to work upon, (because God is The Only One that can Create) But since He did (and His purpose was Good, then evil came into manifestation also). This is how God can say He creates evil also. Every time God would choose to do good then He Knew that evil would have been a presence with Him. Now they have become as one of us to Know good and evil.


If we are told....Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Then we also cannot say that about God either, His Good has always been Good. Through Jesus Christ He has put to death the one who had the power of death, which is the devil/enemy/enmity/entity.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Did God create the serpent in the garden? Is there any good in him?

Yes.
No. Good was the way Good originally made all the angels, including Satan. By the time of the event in "the Garden", Satan and the angels who had followed him had obviously already fallen because Satan is shown acting to work against All Good not for it. In order fall relative to He Who is All Good, it is sort of required to be good to fall to less state - having less good - less good being evil and that choice being how creatures created with the freedom of that choice take the potential for less good (evil) and the creature makes less good (evil) a reality.

So I answered your questions, why not answer mine?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Evil was a real entity that existed outside of God from the beginning. As long as His Creation remained in Him, it was perfect, but once He puts His hands to form it, (as a potter would) then it is exposed to that entity outside Himself. It is made subject to all sorts of Vanity. But with The Lamb being slain before the foundation of the earth, He had already made a way to put that entity to death Once for All, Through His Son/His Word.

If God would have never brought His creation forth to a physical manifestation, (outside Himself) evil would have nothing to work upon, (because God is The Only One that can Create) But since He did (and His purpose was Good, then evil came into manifestation also). This is how God can say He creates evil also. Every time God would choose to do good then He Knew that evil would have been a presence with Him. Now they have become as one of us to Know good and evil.


If we are told....Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Then we also cannot say that about God either, His Good has always been Good. Through Jesus Christ He has put to death the one who had the power of death, which is the devil/enemy/enmity/entity.

Thank for finally attempting to address the question of "does God create evil". If understood you are now denying that He does and instead believe an entity exists who alone is responsible for evil. You would not be alone in such thoughts. However, I do not see how this thought is compatible with saying God created evil, which had been your earlier position.

Zoroastrianism would be one one way to attempt not having God have anything to do with creating evil, and you have said that evil itself actually exists (perhaps eternally like God) rather than representing an relative absence of something else (Goodness). That evil exists and is an entity is the foundation of Zoroastrianism's. which supposes to principles, one good and one evil, opposed to each other with the good finally winning and subduing the other in the end. Which is consistent with your saying that evil is not only self existing, but like Good is a real entity. And while that could work for you, it sort of refutes your earlier statements of a belief that God creates evil (and according to your understanding of Is 45). Zoroastrianism, while similarly allowing for the existence of a God who is all Good (ie not creating evil) and is opposed to the opposite "evil" entity. Zoroastrianism is also opposed to traditional Christian philosophy regarding why there is evil, and of course it is opposed to the idea that evil does not exist as a thing, but is the relative absence of a thing-Good, which has been the position I have been attempting to defend.

Since the character showing up in "the Beginning" is clearly working against All Good, that character is clearly doing evil and the same story along with Rev 12, names him Satan, "the serpent of old". Besides contradicting earlier statements made in this forum (God creates evil you said rather than some other entity is evil and this entity creates it), one problem I see with this evil entity explanation, which is a problem even if you do not agree that serpent in the Garden is Satan, the story suggests (Gen 3.1) God made this serpent and there are also good reasons to associate the same character with Lucifer the fallen angel who led a band of angels against All Good (God). I guess one could claim the serpent is not this "evil entity" but merely it's puppet.

 

[jugghead]

Yes.
No. Good was the way Good originally made all the angels, including Satan. By the time of the event in "the Garden", Satan and the angels who had followed him had obviously already fallen because Satan is shown acting to work against All Good not for it. In order fall relative to He Who is All Good, it is sort of required to be good to fall to less state - having less good - less good being evil and that choice being how creatures created with the freedom of that choice take the potential for less good (evil) and the creature makes less good (evil) a reality.

So I answered your questions, why not answer mine?

The answer to your question is .... yes I see the difference .... but I do not agree with it.

So, may I ask .... from your understanding were did evil come from?

 

[2KnowHim]

Thank for finally attempting to address the question of "does God create evil". If understood you are now denying that He does and instead believe an entity exists who alone is responsible for evil. You would not be alone in such thoughts. However, I do not see how this thought is compatible with saying God created evil, which had been your earlier position.

No, you still Do Not, understand what I am saying. And at this point I don't think you ever will.
Seeing how God is The Creator and no one else, evil does not create, it can only work off of something that is or has been created. When God Creates,.. Evil is Present, it has always existed because God exist. Why is it you do not understand what I'm saying, is it because you cannot HEAR my words?

When God says He creates evil, He is saying......Because I am, who I am, and I'm about to create something Good, I know and understand fully, that evil will be a definite presence with me, to distort, destroy, corrupt, etc....therefore I take Full responsibility for it, for if I did not create, then evil would have no possibility to manifest itself.

I have not changed my view point, I have not denied anything either, it is your twisting, your distorting, and your corrupting what I have said , because you still do not understand.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The answer to your question is .... yes I see the difference .... but I do not agree with it.

So, may I ask .... from your understanding were did evil come from?

I have posted the answer so much here that I violate the rules discussing/defending orthodox views when this section of the forum is suppose to be for the orthodox to question views like yours. For your answer please read the following - and then answer my questions or admit you have no response.
Post 591 first brushes on the source of disharmony
Post 750 & 751 how the disharmony – evil comes to be – free choice of created beings
Post 752 & 756 touches on how free will beings create disharmony –evil
Post 777 restates it all again and relieves God of the blame for evil
Post 790 restates again in a different way
Post 813 – that God making creatures with free will requires that evil be a potential not a necessity
Post 814 – the majority (2/3) of angels by the free choice they were created with resisted/avoided making evil real, which Adam could have too
Post 835 – again says Adam is responsible for making evil reality in this world
Post 836 – explains difference between God creating evil and allowing for the potential
Post 847 – quotes someone you boast his writings do not matter – which if read would also explain why having made creatures of free will is better than making creatures with no free choice to Love God.
Post 855 – summarizes again the answer you seek again
Post 860- - summarizes again how God made evil one potential by creating creatures with a free choice
Post 870 – again explaining how Adam (not God) makes evil a reality both in himself and in/to/for all of creation

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No, you still Do Not, understand what I am saying. And at this point I don't think you ever will.
Seeing how God is The Creator and no one else, evil does not create, it can only work off of something that is or has been created. When God Creates,.. Evil is Present, it has always existed because God exist. Why is it you do not understand what I'm saying, is it because you cannot HEAR my words?

I fail to see the difference between this expression that evil exists as an Entity who can be said to be the source of all evil and Zoroastrianism, as I stated in the post you claim shows me misunderstanding you.
If I misunderstood, show me your understanding of what Zoroastrianism is and how your view of the same entity they imagine "pre-existing" along with God is different. Otherwise it is not true that I misunderstood you.

When God says He creates evil, He is saying......Because I am, who I am, and I'm about to create something Good, I know and understand fully, that evil will be a definite presence with me, to distort, destroy, corrupt, etc....therefore I take Full responsibility for it, for if I did not create, then evil would have no possibility to manifest itself.

I have not changed my view point, I have not denied anything either, it is your twisting, your distorting, and your corrupting what I have said , because you still do not understand.

This statement in my mind is not the same as saying God creates evil, which was clearly your (also Hillsage and other UR supporters) prior statement.

What you are now saying, like the Zoroastrianism, is that God (All Good) is at war with this other evil entity whom God did not create (so pre-existed the Creation story). And no, in that construct evil and good would still exist if God did not create - as both absolutely exist as two opposing entities - Good(God) and evil.

And yes, in that construct you could correctly say evil would not be manifest in this world if God had not created and so God could be said to at least be complicit because He created - but even there His Creative act would only make evil a potential by giving this imagined evil entity a place/things to corrupt. Interestingly, that means there is no requirement/necessity in this construct for God to have made Adam imperfect and I do not think that was part of Zoroastrianism.

BTW Zoroastrianism is close enough to the Christian philosopher's attempts to explain the presence of evil in our world that it is lumped together with that Christian view which together making up one of three human attempts to explain the obvious presence of evil. The other two being that evil is just a part of existence (Buddhism expresses this) and that evil is a just a mode of nature which we can perceive (Atomists, philosophy of Epicurus, Monism, Hylozoists...etc).

 

[2KnowHim]

Why must Religion always try and put a label on something The Holy Spirit reveals. I don't even know what that is I never even heard of it and don't care too now. I'm just a simple girl from Florida with no education to speak of who is led by The Spirit of God.

 

[jugghead]

how is it possible to claim creating that tool must be a good thing for me to do? IOW how could it NOT be evil for me to make/create such a tool? How could I be said to not be DOING evil in making such a tool?

Here is how it is possible for the creation of evil by the Father to be a good thing in the way of the Father.

If God is good and everything He creates is good, how can we understand that the Father (the creator) is greater than that which He creates?

Before Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he had no concept that God is good because he had no knowledge of good and evil ..... and he also did not know that disobedience was evil because he had no knowledge of good or evil, it wasn't until after he ate from the tree that his eyes were opened to see the unrighteousness of disobedience and that God was greater than himself..... since that is true ..... if God is Love, which is very good .... how could Adam know God (Love) and learn to love God the way God knows and loved him if he had never eaten from the tree.

That is why we all had to eat from the tree through the disobedience of Adam, we cannot know God, let alone have a relationship with Him if we all do not have the knowledge of BOTH good and evil.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why must Religion always try and put a label on something The Holy Spirit reveals. I don't even know what that is I never even heard of it and don't care too now. I'm just a simple girl from Florida with no education to speak of who is led by The Spirit of God.

Am not asking or seeking to embarrass anyone. I truly want to understand how it makes sense to you.
I actually tried to complement you as the Zoroastrians in believing as they do are attempting to resolve the same issue, the existence of evil. So am saying your post in expressing what I see as at least a form of Zoroastrianism, is finally a direct response to what I have been asking all along and I thank you for that. I also do not see your posts as coming from a simple girl - your post reflect deep thoughts/thinking and you also are responding from your heart and have been courteous. We do not have to agree and I am not attempting to change your mind. My point was unless you conceive of something like a Zoroastrianism type scenario, then the statements made about God, His Creating us and our nature...etc, all of that makes no sense to me because I am assuming most Christians accept a more orthodox Christian philosophy to resolve the question of the obvious evil in our world. Obviously I cannot use those assumptions in attempting to understand your position.

From what I have read of philosophy, and that is limited, man has only attempted to explain the presence of evil in our world by three approaches. My take on the three is; one uses existence itself as fundamentally evil, one using principles (like God) and the third talks about metaphysical modes with one mode called evil just our abstract perception of reality of a moment. So philosophers have apparently lumped all such attempts into those three broad categories, with orthodox Christian and Zoroastrian philosophical solutions (though different) being lumped in the same category using "principles" to explain the existence of evil. The other two categories are represented by the philosophies behind religions like Buddhism (happiness is ceasing to be) and Hinduism/Brahminism. Am sure within those three broad categories there are significant and mulitple variations. Traditonal orthodox Christian and Zoroastrian philosophies, though in the same category, are different enough to be easily distinguished.

Would you think I would lie about what the Zoroastrians are said to have believed and how it is at least very similar to what you stated recently (essentially both saying that an evil entity pre-existed the Creation story, is at war with God and responsible for corrupting God's creation) ?

To me, and assuming I am not grossly misstating you or Zoroastrians, what you posted sounds an awful lot like what Zoroastrian express to explain evil. Again those things you expressed are not the thoughts of a simple girl and given this explanation I finally understand how it all makes sense to you - which was my point for asking. So even though I think you are wrong about a lot of it, I can at least understand now how it all makes sense to you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Here is how it is possible for the creation of evil by the Father to be a good thing in the way of the Father.

If God is good and everything He creates is good, how can we understand that the Father (the creator) is greater than that which He creates?

Before Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he had no concept that God is good because he had no knowledge of good and evil ..... and he also did not know that disobedience was evil because he had no knowledge of good or evil, it wasn't until after he ate from the tree that his eyes were opened to see the unrighteousness of disobedience and that God was greater than himself..... since that is true ..... if God is Love, which is very good .... how could Adam know God (Love) and learn to love God the way God knows and loved him if he had never eaten from the tree.

That is why we all had to eat from the tree through the disobedience of Adam, we cannot know God, let alone have a relationship with Him if we all do not have the knowledge of BOTH good and evil.

I fail to see how it would be Just to hold anyone accountable, to punish them for doing something they did not know was wrong.

Look, a lot of folks way smarter than us and certainly me have pondered over the existence of evil for ages. Primarily those discussions are carried out in excruciating detail by philosophers whose writings I find difficult to follow and prefer readers digest versions myself. But it appears over many thousands of years of human thought, men have come up with essentially only three general ways to address/explain the existence of evil. Explain it as a part of the very fabric of existence itself. Explain it in terms of a principle or principles acting on our world. And explain evil as just our abstract perception of a particular moment being with that like just one mode of nature itself. The philosophy behind Buddhism, traditional Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and finally Monism & Hinduism being examples within those three general ways to address evil (with of couse multiple variations on the theme within the same groupings).

So we really do not need to re-invent the wheel here, simply pick within one of those three ways to explain it. And if you google some of the examples given

2knowhim has detailed a way that sounds similar to me to how the Zoroastrians address the existence of evil - she has two entities pre=existing Creation, one good (God) and one evil, that are at war with each other. It is that conflict which results in the evil we experience and explains the evil described in the Creation story. And while I can now accept how that makes sense to her line of thinking - and help support UR in the process - I certainly do not agree that it is true or agree that scripture can only be understood to represent that.

 

[2KnowHim]

So we really do not need to re-invent the wheel here, simply pick within one of those three ways to explain it. And if you google some of the examples given

Why would we do that? When we have not gotten our understanding from those things to begin with. We don't attend a church, we spend much alone time with God, we read the scriptures and talk to Him about them, and He reveals what is meant when they were written.

It sounds like to me, that you want us to come down to a man's understanding just so you have something to associate what we believe in, so that you can understand it. And we can't do that. If you truly want to understand why UR and the other things we have discussed with you here makes sense to us, then you will have to let go of EVERYTHING that you have ever been taught by man, because that's what we had to do. Basically it is allowing God to become your Adversary to destroy those things, so that you can live in Him, in Truth, and ONLY Him.

Most every person that I've known that has come to see UR, God has called them out of the church, their jobs, their family, their favorite places, their friends...etc. etc. to walk away from it all....And be alone with Him, so He can begin the process of increase and decrease. I personally have been secluded with Him for the last 16 yrs. With no one teaching me but Him, and only a hand full of those that He has called out such as Jugghead, anonymouswho, X141, hillsage, and fanthatspark.....have I had fellowship with, to share Him, with each other. We have come to learn that truly our fellowship is with The Father and The Son. Sometimes we're lonely, but never alone.

I know this won't make sense to you, but God can be Satan to you, or Christ, depending on your willingness to let go and follow Him and only Him. Perception is Everything. God does not change only our perception of Him does.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why would we do that? When we have not gotten our understanding from those things to begin with. We don't attend a church, we spend much alone time with God, we read the scriptures and talk to Him about them, and He reveals what is meant when they were written.

It sounds like to me, that you want us to come down to a man's understanding just so you have something to associate what we believe in, so that you can understand it. And we can't do that. If you truly want to understand why UR and the other things we have discussed with you here makes sense to us, then you will have to let go of EVERYTHING that you have ever been taught by man, because that's what we had to do. Basically it is allowing God to become your Adversary to destroy those things, so that you can live in Him, in Truth, and ONLY Him.

Most every person that I've known that has come to see UR, God has called them out of the church, their jobs, their family, their favorite places, their friends...etc. etc. to walk away from it all....And be alone with Him, so He can begin the process of increase and decrease. I personally have been secluded with Him for the last 16 yrs. With no one teaching me but Him, and only a hand full of those that He has called out such as Jugghead, anonymouswho, X141, hillsage, and fanthatspark.....have I had fellowship with, to share Him, with each other. We have come to learn that truly our fellowship is with The Father and The Son. Sometimes we're lonely, but never alone.

I know this won't make sense to you, but God can be Satan to you, or Christ, depending on your willingness to let go and follow Him and only Him. Perception is Everything. God does not change only our perception of Him does.

Who gave us minds to think with?
Who gave Solomon more wisdom than any?
Why should we totally refuse to use what God has given us. You did not refuse as you claimed you arrived at your answer totally by yourself - using your own mind - your wisdom and obviously not a simple country girl in reaching a coherent answer on your own. Yet still it resembles an answer others have arrived at using their wisdom. So know I do not agree God does not want us to use our heads or avail ourselves of collective knowledge of the species in considering what is so. Not saying we have to accept it all, and that should be obvious as the science of Philosophy contains reams of stuff we should reject. But why reject it all just because some of it conflicts with God's Word?

BTW this comment was not to you, but to someone who was taking what I would consider stabs in the dark at explaining why evil exists. Rather than start breaking down someone swinging like a windmill, my suggestion to him was that we have thousands years of people taking stabs at that same question, before and after the Incarnation. Philosophy represents the collective wisdom derived from ATTEMPTING to answer questions like that. And I do think it wise when contemplating such question to consider what other answers people have given rather than rely totally on oneself. So rather than swing in the dark, go and read some summaries of those attempts and see how others have attempted to resolve it - as an aide - a tool to help better form one's own thought - not a prison to hold someone in or attempt to place them in.

In your case, you claim to have arrived at an answer to explaining how evil is, which I accept that that answer explains how your views makes sense to you. But I also see little difference between that answer and one arrived at many, many millennium ago. Not that you are not Christian or hold to all the Zoroastrians believed - NO! certainly not. Just that your answer is similar to theirs regarding two pre-existing and opposing principles which is also at least partially opposed to the traditional orthodox response with only One pre-existing principle (and no that does NOT mean I am saying you believe in gods - as that response does not have to include any specific answer as to how either of the principles came to be - or even if they did come to be - just that they are).

And according to mankinds collective wisdom of such questions (Philosophy) I should not wonder given how long mankind has pondered the question of evil, that your answer would indeed resemble one or more of the answers mankind has already documented - with those answers belonging to and have been broken down into three groups. The path jugghead is on in answering that question just did not seem to me coherent - so rather than be rude and just say that - as you now force me to by your response to my reply to him - I invited him to go and look at how others have answered to to see if he could make his response more coherent to me. No one has to totally agree with any of them, but I suspect just as your answer does, any coherent attempt we could make will resemble one that has been made already by other folk.

I think God gave us minds to use, and it would be unwise to totally ignore the collective recorded wisdom of mankind - which having given us the ability to form thoughts and record them - it makes sense that we should use it. So while you could say our wisdom is foolishness compared to God's and certainly that is true, it is not true that there is no value in at least being aware of how others have answered a question one is pondering. And of course if the answer conflicts with what is held as God's Word, the answer must be wrong - but one can still learn from observing/understanding how that answer logically resolved the question in the mind of the person holding to it - because that would or should help one's own use of logic to arrive at your own answer and also help one clearly express that answer. So even if one calls it a "Godly answer" and whether or not it is actually true- it is a safe bet the answer is not unique. We are not the first or the brightest attempting to answer.

 

[jerry kelso]

That's because I am not the one who does it, The Holy Spirit is The One who rightly divides The Word of Truth. He is The one who inspired the words that are written so He should be able to show in the order they should be read and understood.

2knowhim,
The Holy Spirit did inspire godly men to write the bible. He can reveal the truth but a person has to do their part and study to show themselves approved of God and a workman that needeth not to be ashamed in order to rightly divide the word. He doesn't just hand it over just because you have become a christian if you don't do your part. Look at how many denominations there are and differing beliefs from well meaning christians.
There are many who have believed the wrong thing when they believed they were right and were taught by the Holy Spirit only to change their thinking when they realized they were wrong. Jerry Kelso

 

[jugghead]

Hello Dr, I will agree with you that a lot of the time my thoughts are not made clear through what I write, 2knowhim and I have been at odds with each other at times also, when we talked it out we find we are talking about the same thing but in different languages and that comes from the wrong choice of words and that is because if I use a word in my description and my definition of how it is used is different than someone's else's definition of it, that is where the confusion sets in ... in both parties.

If words are not defined and agreed upon before a conversation the conversation benefits neither person, and that is very time consuming and patience is something the majority of us lack, including myself.

I apologize if I am not clear at times, but you have been using your language for many years, I myself have only been using mine for only about ten.

Will do my best to try to be clearer in the future, so I ask for your patience.

Thank you

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hello Dr, I will agree with you that a lot of the time my thoughts are not made clear through what I write, 2knowhim and I have been at odds with each other at times also, when we talked it out we find we are talking about the same thing but in different languages and that comes from the wrong choice of words and that is because if I use a word in my description and my definition of how it is used is different than someone's else's definition of it, that is where the confusion sets in ... in both parties.

If words are not defined and agreed upon before a conversation the conversation benefits neither person, and that is very time consuming and patience is something the majority of us lack, including myself.

I apologize if I am not clear at times, but you have been using your language for many years, I myself have only been using mine for only about ten.

Will do my best to try to be clearer in the future, so I ask for your patience.

Thank you

No problem and I like your spirit. And I would be lost no doubt in your native tongue. Which is why I wanted to encourage to goggle some Philosophical writings to see how others have expressed an answer to why evil exists - there really are few general categories of explanations and all Christian ones I am aware of belong in one category. That category involves the idea of a principle, usually only One for most Christians and that is God, who does not create evil but allows it to come into existence (which some Christians obviously disagree how He allows it to come to be. Similar to that idea are multiple principles, where two or more are on opposing sides of Good and Evil as 2knowhim has endorsed.

BTW these are deep and heavy thoughts, but I do not feel like our souls hang on a grasp of any of it. I just wanted to understand how this belief in UR creates issues/conflicts with other fundamental elements of orthodox Christian faiths and how those are resolved - which appears in most cases so far to refute the fundamental element.

So it is sort of like what I have always thought about Universal Reconciliation, that one cannot just wake up one day and gee wouldn't it be better if everyone eventually made it to Heaven without those thoughts conflicting with a lot of other basic beliefs - so it just doesn't change our eternal fates it changes a lot of things. So to me, yes it is a nice thought and indeed a good thing to hope for, that everyone will be saved. However, I cannot help thinking so much of what I know to be true, as in revealed by God to mankind, so much of that must all crumble - if not completely at least slightly in order to make that more than just a good thing to hope for.

 

[2KnowHim]

So even if one calls it a "Godly answer" and whether or not it is actually true- it is a safe bet the answer is not unique. We are not the first or the brightest attempting to answer.

I understand what your saying, and believe it or not I actually agree. After all there is nothing new under the sun right?
And like Jugghead, I also would like to apologize if I have been harsh in my answers towards you, patience is something I don't always walk in.

As far as UR is concerned, I would just like to say that it did not come easy for me to accept. There were all those scriptures that literally out right contradicted this new idea. And I struggled with them for a long time. But through the yrs. it has become more obvious to me, that the reason for that struggle was because those same scriptures when I read them was preconceived in my mind already as to what they meant because I was raised in the Pentecostal Church and taught from a very young age of what they meant. And this was very hard to shake off, and receive anything new that The Spirit was trying to show me. But when I come to realize that God is not out to destroy the man, but everything IN the man that has opposed himself and separated us from Him, that's when all those opposing scriptures came into balance.

We have no idea how strong our preconceived images and thoughts are when we read those scriptures, until we allow Him to strip us of them, it is the very thing that keeps one from receiving The Truth.

 

[2KnowHim]

The Holy Spirit did inspire godly men to write the bible. He can reveal the truth but a person has to do their part and study to show themselves approved of God and a workman that needeth not to be ashamed in order to rightly divide the word. He doesn't just hand it over just because you have become a christian if you don't do your part. Look at how many denominations there are and differing beliefs from well meaning christians.
There are many who have believed the wrong thing when they believed they were right and were taught by the Holy Spirit only to change their thinking when they realized they were wrong. Jerry Kelso

I couldn't agree more, we all work out our own Salvation with fear and trembling, do we not? But like you just did here in what you said....it is to divide the Word of Truth, but you must have The Truth first in order to rightly divide it. Many (and I'm not saying you did,) it was probably just a slight misquote not knowingly, but many don't take the time to find the Truth first in order for The Holy Spirit to divide it.

And yes, I have be wrong in my understanding many times, but I am never afraid or not willing to go back to where it all went wrong, in order for me to receive the Truth. Many I have found are not willing to do that.
Raised in the Pentecostal Church from a very young age, I was taught, hell fire and brimstone and what they meant to a sinner. I believed in the Rapture, Eternal torment, and all those scriptures that teach about the Eternal Separation from God. Believed them, taught them, preached them with so much belief that you could feel the fire in my words.

But I was Wrong in my understanding, so I had to go back as to knowing Nothing as a child, and let Him teach me of what those things really mean to Him, and I thank God that He took me there or I'd still be believing in those same things as I did from childhood. And don't get me wrong when I say these things, I'm not saying that the person who believes these things are not saved or that they don't love God.
It's just that, there is So Much More that people could be experiencing in Him if they were to let go of those teachings and doctrines...I can't even put into words what a difference it has made in my Relationship with Him.
I see people all the time on here struggling, and wondering if they were really saved, or asking themselves is this all there is to being a Christian...etc.. And I sympathize with them because I know, and understand where their coming from because I was once there too. As long as I held onto those teachings of the church, I had no Relationship with Him, or at least as I have it today.