Understanding salvation

[oi_antz]

Another thought

Since writing my original post about the parable of the sower, another idea has come to me. When the sower scatters the seed, the aim is for all of it to fall on good ground. Not for it to be adversely affected by a path, rocks or thorns.

This is not a realistic idea. Look at any farm (in this case, we are considering the diversity of all human kind), you will see that the ground changes drastically. Some areas are vast, fertile plains, others are vast desert, and even some fertile plains have rocky riverbeds running through them. Probably you could envisage this as cultural pockets of society.

Edit: although, there is the wisdom to not cast pearls before swine. Though, in absence of the risk of having them trampled and being attacked by the swine, who are we to decide whether a person deserves to have seeds scattered or not? Remember that St. Paul described we sow and water, but it is God that gives the increase.

I am asking then, do the three unfruitful sites represent collateral damage?

Please consider as I have described, that a strong plant, finding a crack in a path, will break up the path into rocky ground. I am sure that He does not view our efforts falling on deaf ears to produce no growth, a collateral damage. Of course it is cause for sorrow though.

Are they simply unfortunate consequences of spreading the good news of the gospel? Are these the people who will not find what they should in the Christian message? People who find the Christian message a disappointment?

There are different reasons why people will not respond to the gospel. There are people who are so deeply immersed in anti-Christian cultures that they are surrounded by birds who eat the seed before it gets a chance to germinate. There are people who have such thorny ground, that even if the seed falls there, the seed can sprout in the moisture, but the thorns will not allow it to take root at all, by choking it's roots and smothering the sunlight. It will not be allowed to grow. These are those whose sins are so valuable to them, their attachment to their sin will prevent them from ever allowing a plant to grow that will eventually eradicate their sin.

You may respond that God would know who is ready to receive the gospel and who is not, and that God would know exactly how to approach each person. However, the gospel message is spread by people, people who are fallible and who may in their enthusiasm influence people who are not ready, leading them to think they are saved when they are not.

You have a lot of insight. You should act on it. The people you are describing here seem to correspond to the ones I described earlier, who have thorny ground, that if someone is not careful in the way they deal with them, they can get hurt.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That's the primary thrust of this parable. At the same time, if there is no fruit, that is evidence of no salvation. Genuine salvation must lead to genuine good works (Eph 2:8-10).

And if we want to discuss that we can use actual biblical references that supports it rather than a parable about something else.

 

[lutherangerman]

Like in everything about Jesus, you must bring in forgiveness to this parable. There are many verses in the bible that say that God's word does not return to God empty. We might not bring much fruit, but Jesus always brings much fruit. And there is fruit that is not christian, for example when an atheist is inspired to do something good, or a muslim or a hindu. This parable is not about salvation but about making something of the Gospel message. And the things that are made can also be made in another setting than the christian, church setting. And there can be reasons, and Jesus names them here, that make us unfruitful ... things we cannot change easily because a seed that was sown can't wander away to a better place. I think the real consequence of this parable is that we must use our multiplied seeds from the good grounds to sow even more. And to hack away the weeds, bring water and new mud to the rocky places. Farming is serious business...

 

[food4thought]

I don't remember indicating that was the issue.

I was responding to this:

Paul mentioned above, that rocky ground can be worked on, to produce more fertile soil. I also drew from another parable the shallow ground, which in the same way, can be dug over and cultivated to produce deep, rich loam. The key to consider though, is that every plant has a will to survive, and if the conditions are right, it will thrive. Humans are the masters of changing their surroundings, so bring in the parable of the pearl of great price, we see there is not need to think that someone with rocky or shallow ground is a lost cause.

I was searching for where we may have differences between our understanding, and for the most part your view seemed to amplifying my thoughts in more detail, and I wondered if I my post didn't seem to say that those with the rocky and thorny soil were without hope... which led to my response. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

But in this, I wonder whether you can reflect on the reconciliation you mentioned here, would you say that a seed was sown that took root, and that has grown into the faith you now have which was not there during that period of time where your faith was gone?

I think it was more like a fog lifted from my mind than a new seed planted... I don't remember reading or hearing anything about God in the intervening time. I am sure God was doing some rock breaking/removing in my heart the whole time I was away from Him, though. Once I returned, it took some time for new seed to be planted and grow into some modest fruit. That was the way I experienced it, anyway.

There is no disagreement here. My emphasis is that He wants us to grow, produce abundantly, yet we do have thorns and rocks in the way (you said character flaws, which I think corresponds to that). If we do not cooperate to subdue the land, it will stunt the crop, and in severe cases it can actually die. Yet, there is things that God cannot do that only we can do Genesis 6:3. Indeed, we cannot create faith apart from Him.

Sorry I misunderstood.

I would describe that preparing as the sowing of seeds on the path. Though, even if the seed finds a crack in the path.. Have you seen what a strong plant will do to it? It will become stony ground. Notice John 15:3.

That is interesting. That would indicate that even the thorns and weeds in life have a purpose in God's work in our heart. Maybe working hard at that job (for our own glory) can help break up rocks of laziness and apathy that God wants to rid us of... many such things could be applied here.

I'm thinking in conjunction with the parable of the wide gate and broad path that leads to destruction (Mat 7:13)... our hearts would need to leave that well worn path in order for God's seed to take root. Perhaps God works both ways?

Thank you Mike, my name is Anthony.

Thank you, too, Anthony.

 

[Troy Rambo]

Unfortunately for me I was an expert at being choked out of my faith all 40 years of my life. The only way I could try to rectify this was to examine why I kept relapsing. And the answer is I was a selfish idiot.


I can tell you that its hard being a believer because you are always on guard for tests. You have to be conscious about every choice that you make. But at least you have love in your heart. You love and are loved. But what is even harder about being an unbeliever is that you have no love and everything you do is futile. You feel lost and you actually deal with a lot of loss as well. You lose your God, your family, friends, jobs, and even your mental health.


I was an idiot because I didn’t seek the truth about existence for decades. I didn’t practice wisdom nor ask the Lord for it. Because I had no faith or wisdom I suffered loss:


Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.” Matthew 13:12.


And I spent all my life in selfish ambition: trying to build an empire and make lots of money so that I could attract women and gain respect from everyone. And boy did that backfire on me! I never attracted a woman or gained any respect no matter how hard I worked for it.


The key to true happiness is to let all your selfishness go and fill yourself with love of the Lord and others. Think as a spirit rather than crude matter:


“Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.” Colossians 3:2.


“Train yourself to let go of all the things you fear to lose.” Yoda

 

[losthope]

Troy Rambo wrote:
I can tell you that its hard being a believer because you are always on guard for tests. You have to be conscious about every choice that you make. But at least you have love in your heart. You love and are loved. But what is even harder about being an unbeliever is that you have no love and everything you do is futile. You feel lost and you actually deal with a lot of loss as well. You lose your God, your family, friends, jobs, and even your mental health.

Yes, you do understand that being an unbeliever is not necessarily the easy choice. When I lost my faith and hope I also lost a lot more. I lost God, I very nearly lost my family and I went through the worst depression I have known. I lost the hope of doing the things of eternal worth so that everything seemed futile. At the same time I was no longer a member of the fellowship and so I had lost many of my friends and my social support system. Many Christians rejected me, though some tried to help me.

Even so, and despite what many Christians have said to me over the years since then, I have never thought that I was wrong to acknowledge that I was no longer a believer. I was rocky ground, the seed had tried to grow but died because it was not rooted in God. It was not able to take in nourishment from God and it withered. I had to accept the situation and wait until the circumstances were right. There was no point going through the motions of becoming a believer again – and without God all you can do is to go through the motions – and then having the same failure occur again.

Perhaps one day the circumstances will be right and I will find God. I try to be prepared but I do not know when or if the seed will be sown again.

 

[Psalm3704]

That's the primary thrust of this parable. At the same time, if there is no fruit, that is evidence of no salvation. Genuine salvation must lead to genuine good works (Eph 2:8-10).

This guy's got it right. The good works are the good fruits. Many Christians just don't know this as their mind is still mislead focused under works of the law.

Good fruit is mandatory for conversion and salvation. One can not be transform by merely saying I believe. No fruit, no salvation. Producing fruit is an ongoing process as we have 7 billion people to save on the planet. Anytime a Christian stop producing fruit, God will remove from the branch (endure till the end). You can't serve two masters, you can't be lukewarm. Either continue serving God or you'll serve the devil, Romans 6:16.

Ephesians 2:10
God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us to do good works, which God planned in advance for us to live our lives doing.

Titus 2:11-14
11 That is the way we should live, because God’s grace that can save everyone has come. 12 It teaches us not to live against God nor to do the evil things the world wants to do. Instead, that grace teaches us to live in the present age in a wise and right way and in a way that shows we serve God.13 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14 He gave himself for us so he might pay the price to free us from all evil and to make us pure people who belong only to him—people who are always wanting to do good deeds.

Luke 8:11-15
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

John 15:1-8
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

 

[food4thought]

Food4thought and oi-antz have discussed what I think may be important aspects of my attempts to understand the parable of the sower. In particular, they have considered what it means to have soil contaminated by rock or thorns, the effect on plants trying to grow in such soil, and what might need to be done in order to make the soil more fruitful.

Food4thought wrote this:

Matthew 7:13-23 tells us that the gate of salvation is narrow, and that many who thought they were saved were not. Jesus indicates that He must know you for you to be saved. Of course, He knows of everyone who ever has or will live, but He does not have Koinonia (fellowship, communion) with anyone outside of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So, only those who have a real relationship with Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit have eternal life.

What you are saying here is that salvation is about what God does. Not only what God did 2000 years ago but what God does here and now. That what is required is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and therefore a real relationship with Jesus. And that there are many people who think they are saved but are not because they lack this indwelling relationship. Sadly, this step of God needing to act in response to a repentance prayer is usually omitted when Christians and evangelists try to explain the gospel message.

True, it is not always mentioned; but that is mostly because we assume that God is always willing to save those who will repent and place there complete trust in Jesus Christ. The problem arises when we try to push someone who isn't sure about things into "saying the prayer", or someone who isn't really trusting fully in Christ says the prayer to conform to outside expectations. There are other possible reasons, but the bottom line is that someone who is not ready just says the prayer, but their hearts are not really in it.

Food4thought then wrote:
In the context of the parable of the sower, then, I think we see a gradation from lost and never found (the ground along the path), to lost then found to lost again (the rocky ground), to lost and found yet unfruitful (thorny ground), to lost and found and fruitful (good ground). All of it is based upon the condition of the heart, not just the mind, of the individual... so what is the condition of your heart? I think the fate of the hearts are clear: heart along the path (demonic interference, never even planted in faith), the rocky heart (accepted word, but withered under pressure, falls away), the thorny heart (accepted word, but choked out by distractions, unfruitful), and the good heart (bearing much fruit) are all clear.

Are you saying here that the path never accepts the message, the rocky ground accepts the message but for some reason there is no infilling of the Holy Spirit and so faith cannot be sustained, the thorny heart accepts the message and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but gets distracted, and the good heart has the indwelling and thrives? If so, then the thorny heart and the good heart are saved, while the path and the rocky heart are not.

To be honest, I am not entirely certain about whether the rocky ground ever is truly born again (given a new heart by the regeneration of the indwelling Holy Spirit). My experience, as I understand it, was that I was truly born again, but then I renounced my salvation while enduring psychosis that caused me great mental and emotional stress. I have since returned to the Lord in repentance and faith, and have experienced the work of the Spirit in my life once again. It is my understanding that if I would have died while in apastasy, I would have been lost. But of course I cannot be certain of that, and this view is highly controversial in Christian circles, so take it for what it is, my understanding of my experience.

oi_antz explained a little more about rocky ground:
A plant growing in shallow or rocky soil has little room for its root structure to expand. Some plants cannot survive if the soil is too rocky or shallow, because their nutritional needs are not met, or the soil that they do have, cannot sustain moisture between replenishings. So some plants can survive in some such environments while others can't.

The implication here is that if a plant is not rooted properly, it will die. This is consistent with food4thought saying that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is needed. Without that indwelling, the person’s faith is not truly rooted and their nutritional needs are not met. As I described my own experience in this situation; my hope died for lack of living water to sustain it.

As oi_antz and food4thought later seem to agree, dealing with this situation requires action from both the person and from God. They need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and this requires the person to be ready to accept the indwelling.

However as oi_antz suggests, there may well be people whose faith can survive in this environment even without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They may appear to be very enthusiastic Christians. But are they really saved?

I don't think I can answer that question with certainty. Regardless of whether they were saved or not, God can and will still bring them into His fellowship if they will repent of their own works (both earning their own salvation and their sinful actions) and place their complete trust in Jesus.

Aiki also stresses the importance of what God does:
This part of Jesus' parable is not suggesting that your salvation rests upon your capacity to preserve it. Such an idea runs totally contrary to the Bible's teaching on justification, and grace, and identification with Christ, and the many places in Scripture which tell us very explicitly that God is both the Author and Completer of our faith.
What this part of the parable seems to be explaining is just what the rest of Scripture teaches: in and of ourselves we are unable to fully receive the Gospel and believe it unto salvation. Our salvation, you see, is God's work, not ours. He saves us; we cannot save ourselves. It is not the strength of our feeling about the Gospel, or the force of our resolve, or our capacity to endure that saves us. Our salvation is God's doing; it is a monergistic work of our Creator. And what God has worked in us, He takes the responsibility to preserve.

oi_antz also wrote this:
I am viewing those in context of this parable, as ones who sprang up for a while but have withered away and died, or have been choked. Either way, The Word is not living within them and they require a new seed to take root that can grow into a crop to become that abundance of life that we can only have in Christ.

Does this imply that there may be no point urging such a person to persevere with their faith, to pray, read the Bible and so on? If faith is dead, if they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling, do they need to start again?

I don't think so... the seed is the word of God, so if the seed that was planted never produced fruit, more seed may break up the rocky ground. That is one of the amazing things about plants, their roots will sometimes break up rocky ground by finding little cracks and growing into them and causing them to expand and further crack. Over time this can cause the ground to become useful. Also remember that God is always at work in people's hearts, working the ground and seeking to make it ready for the seed. I would definitely urge ANYONE to sincerely pray, and read God's word with an open mind.

Food4thought also wrote this:
Paul tells us in Romans 8 what the life in the Spirit is like, and at the end tells us that those who are in the Spirit cannot be separated from God by "... any other created thing". Many take this as teaching OSAS (once saved, always saved), but in context of the passage, I believe it means that those who are in the Spirit are always secure. In the larger context of the entire NT, other passages such as Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 (and many others) indicate that it is possible for someone to deliberately leave their relationship with Christ, reject the Spirit, and thus become lost again.

It was not my intention to get involved in a debate on OSAS. However, thank you for this paragraph. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I agree that this is not the place for a debate about OSAS, and I am glad that I have been helpful in some way. God loves you, and I believe that He is working in your life even now. Ask Him to prepare your heart for faith, because Jesus Himself has promised to respond to our faith in Christ by giving us His Spirit (John 7:37-39). I'll be praying for you...

 

[oi_antz]

I was rocky ground, the seed had tried to grow but died because it was not rooted in God. It was not able to take in nourishment from God and it withered. I had to accept the situation and wait until the circumstances were right. There was no point going through the motions of becoming a believer again – and without God all you can do is to go through the motions – and then having the same failure occur again.

Perhaps one day the circumstances will be right and I will find God. I try to be prepared but I do not know when or if the seed will be sown again.

The bit that concerns me here, is you think seeds are not being sown in abundance right now. A lot of truth has been heaped on you in this thread, and even you have demonstrated knowledge of truth, yet we can all see none of those seeds have taken root (not to say that none have, only that we can't all see it right now). I have had rocky, thorny ground. I have acted upon His instruction and worked the ground. I can see the thorns have been cleared, the ground is still quite rocky and more work must be done to it. But I trust Him, and I am the only one that can be blamed if the faith I have, is to fail. I do not believe that He would make a plant that cannot survive in the right conditions, and especially when you consider the parable of the vinedresser - it is God who cuts off the fruitless branches. A plant doesn't simply die because the ground is stony, but because it's nutritional needs are not met. You can actually make stony ground into fertile loam if needed. You can pulverise the stone to sand and work compost into it. Therefore, the parable of the pearl of great price shows that if someone's faith fails to produce fruit, probably they have not done everything they could to preserve it. Rather than persevering to make fertile ground, they have given in to temptation or trials.

 

[Troy Rambo]

Troy Rambo wrote:
I can tell you that its hard being a believer because you are always on guard for tests. You have to be conscious about every choice that you make. But at least you have love in your heart. You love and are loved. But what is even harder about being an unbeliever is that you have no love and everything you do is futile. You feel lost and you actually deal with a lot of loss as well. You lose your God, your family, friends, jobs, and even your mental health.

Yes, you do understand that being an unbeliever is not necessarily the easy choice. When I lost my faith and hope I also lost a lot more. I lost God, I very nearly lost my family and I went through the worst depression I have known. I lost the hope of doing the things of eternal worth so that everything seemed futile. At the same time I was no longer a member of the fellowship and so I had lost many of my friends and my social support system. Many Christians rejected me, though some tried to help me.

Even so, and despite what many Christians have said to me over the years since then, I have never thought that I was wrong to acknowledge that I was no longer a believer. I was rocky ground, the seed had tried to grow but died because it was not rooted in God. It was not able to take in nourishment from God and it withered. I had to accept the situation and wait until the circumstances were right. There was no point going through the motions of becoming a believer again – and without God all you can do is to go through the motions – and then having the same failure occur again.

Perhaps one day the circumstances will be right and I will find God. I try to be prepared but I do not know when or if the seed will be sown again.

Everytime I relapsed and hit rock bottom and felt called to turn back toward God, the first thing I do is open my Bible and read Matthew. Every time I read the words of Christ, they bring me to my knees as my soul recognizes the truth. If youre struggling with your faith I suggest you do the same. Take baby steps if you have to. Seek the truth!

 

[losthope]

Thank you to Food4thought, oi_antz and Troy Rambo, all of whom have shown their concern today for my spiritual progress in different ways. Thank you also to everyone else who has written a response to try to help my understanding, and to anyone who has read this thread and been moved to prayer, or to think more about their own situation.

Food4thought, you and I wrote this:
Sadly, this step of God needing to act in response to a repentance prayer is usually omitted when Christians and evangelists try to explain the gospel message.
...
True, it is not always mentioned; but that is mostly because we assume that God is always willing to save those who will repent and place there complete trust in Jesus Christ. The problem arises when we try to push someone who isn't sure about things into "saying the prayer", or someone who isn't really trusting fully in Christ says the prayer to conform to outside expectations. There are other possible reasons, but the bottom line is that someone who is not ready just says the prayer, but their hearts are not really in it.

I know that the unsaid assumption is that God is always willing to save those who repent and trust. But it does not always happen, probably in many cases for the reasons that you state. Or it could because God knows that the time is not yet right for that person to be saved. It could even be because God’s purpose would be better served by letting the person remain unsaved (or by letting them appear to be unsaved, if that is more consistent with your understanding of God). Whatever the reason, there are going to be people whose experience is that of rocky ground and failure to become rooted in God.

Food4thought wrote this:
To be honest, I am not entirely certain about whether the rocky ground ever is truly born again (given a new heart by the regeneration of the indwelling Holy Spirit).

I am not certain either, but I think there are many in this situation who are not given a new heart.

Food4thought, you and I wrote this:
… there may well be people whose faith can survive in this environment even without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They may appear to be very enthusiastic Christians. But are they really saved?
..
I don't think I can answer that question with certainty. Regardless of whether they were saved or not, God can and will still bring them into His fellowship if they will repent of their own works (both earning their own salvation and their sinful actions) and place their complete trust in Jesus.

I think you are saying here that they would need to go through the process of becoming a Christian all over again. And do it properly this time. But would they do this? From the viewpoint of the devil, one effective way to keep a person unsaved would be to let them think that they are already saved.

oi_antz, you and I wrote this:
Perhaps one day the circumstances will be right and I will find God. I try to be prepared but I do not know when or if the seed will be sown again.
...
The bit that concerns me here, is you think seeds are not being sown in abundance right now. A lot of truth has been heaped on you in this thread, and even you have demonstrated knowledge of truth, yet we can all see none of those seeds have taken root (not to say that none have, only that we can't all see it right now).

Seeds may well be sown in abundance, but as far as I know so far none of them have landed on me. In other words I am not aware of any special calling from God to come and repent. Past experience has taught me that a call from God is vital, because until that happens I would be expecting nothing to happen. I appreciate that I am asking for more than some Christians would think is appropriate. But after one spectacular failure as a believer, after stepping out in faith and landing flat on my nose, I need some personal assurance.

Troy Rambo wrote this:
Every time I relapsed and hit rock bottom and felt called to turn back toward God, the first thing I do is open my Bible and read Matthew. Every time I read the words of Christ, they bring me to my knees as my soul recognizes the truth. If you’re struggling with your faith I suggest you do the same.

I would love to be able to do the same, but there are two problems. First, I do not have the experience of feeling called to turn back toward God. Second, reading the Bible does not affect me in the way that it affects most believers. I never had the experience of a Bible verse almost “jumping off the page at me” because of its significance. Probably because being stony ground I was not rooted in God. If that kind of thing had ever happened to me, especially during the time when I was an active believer, I suspect that my life would have been very different.

 

[Troy Rambo]

I have turned to God and relapsed many times, especially in recent years. The parable of the sower ironically describes exactly how I approached the word since I was a little kid.


When I was a young boy and was first introduced to Jesus, I had no understanding at all and immediately discarded it:


“As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.” Mark 4:15


As a teenager, I was re-introduced to Jesus again and I accepted Him and attended church activities. But I didn’t pay much attention nor take it very seriously. I lasted about a year and then I gave up:


“Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.” Mark 4:16-17


As an adult, I let my selfish desires and wealth become my main goal and didn’t care about Jesus:


“Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.” Mark 4:18-19


And, now Im really hoping I never relapse again and actually carry this next verse out:


“Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word accept it, and produce a crop – thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.” Mark 4:20


Maybe for some people like me its kind of like a process throughout their lives. Ive committed all these acts in that order since I was a child. Im now 40 years old.


The entire Bible made no sense to me when I was kid because I had very little life experience nor did I know how to read and relate to its wisdom. Now I can make sense of most of it because of 40 years of life experience. I don’t know how old you are, but maybe you can try to relate to the Bible’s wisdom and apply it to your life.

 

[Psalm3704]

Seeds may well be sown in abundance, but as far as I know so far none of them have landed on me. In other words I am not aware of any special calling from God to come and repent. Past experience has taught me that a call from God is vital, because until that happens I would be expecting nothing to happen. I appreciate that I am asking for more than some Christians would think is appropriate. But after one spectacular failure as a believer, after stepping out in faith and landing flat on my nose, I need some personal assurance.

Here's the reason why you're not getting the convictions from Christ through the Holy Spirit who will lead you to be with God.

I see you've listed yourself as an agnostic. You have to accept Christ first and have Him come be with you as He leads and guide you to God. He's the only way. Many Christians mistaken John 14:6 as the resurrection into heaven to be with God upon death, but that's not the case. This passage is referring to a personal and intimate relationship with the Father here and now. God wants a relationship with each of us today, not after we die. And He wants to give you a good life of peace, happiness and prosperity that ONLY comes by being in a close relationship with Him. Many Christians that struggle with life is because they're not yet in this relationship. Jesus will give peace to each of us, but only if we truly love Him as evidence by following His word in obedience (stop sinning) and happiness if we produce fruit.

Stop sinning => peace. Produce fruit => happiness.​

John 14:6 CEB Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.​

"You persist in obeying Christ's commandments until you bear good fruit." This will show you truly love Christ. Then will your relationship grow with Christ and God. And because you've proven you truly love Christ by obeying His words, He'll gradually reveal Himself to you. This is how it all works.

John 14:21 CEB Whoever has my commandments and keeps them loves me. Whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”​

"You persist in obeying Christ's commandments until you bear good fruit, because you will be tested as the devil will come to lead you astray from being save." This is why you must endure till the end.

As long as the devil is alive roaming freely in this world, he'll continue to come and destroy each of us trying to follow Christ till we fall away.

You must, you must, you must, you must, you must, you must endure till the end! You must overcome this world till the end. It's a constant battle between you (good) vs evil until you leave this world. Those that do not overcome will have their name remove from the Book of Life and risk being thrown into the Lake of Fire (2nd death).

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.​

Luke 8:11-15 CJB
11 “The parable is this: the seed is God’s message. 12 The ones along the path are those who hear, but then the Adversary comes and takes the message out of their hearts, in order to keep them from being saved by trusting it. ​

13 The ones on rock are those who, when they hear the word, accept it with joy; but these have no root — they go on trusting for awhile; but when a time of testing comes, they apostatize.

14 As for what fell in the midst of thorns these are the ones who hear; but as they go along, worries and wealth and life’s gratifications crowd in and choke them, so that their fruit never matures.

15 But what fell in rich soil — these are the ones who, when they hear the message, hold onto it with a good, receptive heart; and by persevering, they bring forth a harvest.​

This is how Christ came to save us, by leading us to God if we'll obey His teachings and by following His path will our sins continue to be remove past, present and future. Our sins are not washed away if we ignore Christ and continue to sin.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we decide to go on sinning after we have learned the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins. 27 There is nothing but fear in waiting for the judgment and the terrible fire that will destroy all those who live against God. 28 Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was found guilty from the proof given by two or three witnesses. He was put to death without mercy. 29 So what do you think should be done to those who do not respect the Son of God, who look at the blood of the agreement that made them holy as no different from others’ blood, who insult the Spirit of God’s grace? Surely they should have a much worse punishment. 30 We know that God said, “I will punish those who do wrong; I will repay them.” And he also said, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

 

[Troy Rambo]

I think people have to hit rock bottom before they start looking for help. I had to hit bottom several times and each time I stirred but didnt quite wake up. Now I finally woke up!

 

[Psalm3704]

I think people have to hit rock bottom before they start looking for help. I had to hit bottom several times and each time I stirred but didnt quite wake up. Now I finally woke up!

Yes. 110% agree.

The devil will mislead us making us stubborn and sin till God has no choice but allows enough disciple (problems) come upon our life till we're finally humble and our eyes finally open.

Proverbs 3:12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

 

[oi_antz]

oi_antz, you and I wrote this:
Perhaps one day the circumstances will be right and I will find God. I try to be prepared but I do not know when or if the seed will be sown again.
...
The bit that concerns me here, is you think seeds are not being sown in abundance right now. A lot of truth has been heaped on you in this thread, and even you have demonstrated knowledge of truth, yet we can all see none of those seeds have taken root (not to say that none have, only that we can't all see it right now).

Seeds may well be sown in abundance, but as far as I know so far none of them have landed on me. In other words I am not aware of any special calling from God to come and repent. Past experience has taught me that a call from God is vital, because until that happens I would be expecting nothing to happen. I appreciate that I am asking for more than some Christians would think is appropriate. But after one spectacular failure as a believer, after stepping out in faith and landing flat on my nose, I need some personal assurance.

I am not sure why you wouldn't do it anyway. How do you mean that you are afraid of falling flat on your nose? I reckon, that you are doing Christian activities already, by asking sincerely and being meek to teach, but that someone who becomes Christian does something else that you are not doing: they act to change when it is learned that change is required (repentance/obedience). Seeds falling on you, IMO, probably are not able to break through the crust of your soil, or maybe waiting for some water before they can germinate. What is real though, and to be expected, is what you have been told in this thread will remain in mind, and over time, as seeds, may find an opportunity to grow. I agree and encourage too, that forcing it to happen will not help, but do treat seriously your own role in nurturing or smothering that growth.

 

[Troy Rambo]

Yes. 110% agree.

The devil will mislead us making us stubborn and sin till God has no choice but allows enough disciple (problems) come upon our life till we're finally humble and our eyes finally open.

Proverbs 3:12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

Thanks for that scripture. It helps.

 

[Psalm3704]

Thanks for that scripture. It helps.

Welcome

 

[losthope]

To Psalm3704 and oi_antz

Psalm3704 wrote this:
I see you've listed yourself as an agnostic … Many Christians mistaken John 14:6 as the resurrection into heaven to be with God upon death, but that's not the case. This passage is referring to a personal and intimate relationship with the Father here and now. God wants a relationship with each of us today, not after we die.

Now here I agree completely with part of what you say. What I am seeking is a personal relationship with God in this life. That is what is important to me, not life after death.

I call myself an agnostic because I just do not know if God is there or not. I do not have the faith to call myself a believer, and do not have the certainty to call myself an atheist.

Psalm3704 wrote:
You have to accept Christ first and have Him come be with you as He leads and guide you to God … He wants to give you a good life of peace, happiness and prosperity that ONLY comes by being in a close relationship with Him. Many Christians that struggle with life is because they're not yet in this relationship.

This involves Christ coming to be with me and leading me to God. I would love this to happen, but for me it has never happened. I was a believer but not in a relationship with God. No wonder I struggled with my faith. The question is, why did Christ not come to me? For many years I have been seeking the answer to that question, because until I know why Christ did not come back then, I cannot put it right and have Christ come to be with me.

I agree that many believers (who may or may not be saved) struggle because they do not have a relationship with God. They think they have it, but there is no evidence of it in their lives.

oi_antz and I wrote this:
... after one spectacular failure as a believer, after stepping out in faith and landing flat on my nose, I need some personal assurance.
...
I am not sure why you wouldn't do it anyway. How do you mean that you are afraid of falling flat on your nose? I reckon, that you are doing Christian activities already, by asking sincerely and being meek to teach, but that someone who becomes Christian does something else that you are not doing: they act to change when it is learned that change is required (repentance/obedience). Seeds falling on you, IMO, probably are not able to break through the crust of your soil, or maybe waiting for some water before they can germinate. What is real though, and to be expected, is what you have been told in this thread will remain in mind, and over time, as seeds, may find an opportunity to grow. I agree and encourage too, that forcing it to happen will not help, but do treat seriously your own role in nurturing or smothering that growth.

As a believer many years ago, I did step out in faith and landed flat on my nose (figuratively). It is something that has already happened, it was a very painful experience and I do not want it to happen again. That I why I am not going to be able to trust God again until I know that there is a real call. And when I have reasonable certainty that this time, God will respond. Living water is needed before the seed can germinate. It means that perhaps the best I can do to nurture the possibility of growth is to put myself in a position where God can reach me, by interacting with believers, learning what I can, and trying to find out more about why I have never been aware of God or anything spiritual.

 

[food4thought]

I know that the unsaid assumption is that God is always willing to save those who repent and trust. But it does not always happen, probably in many cases for the reasons that you state. Or it could because God knows that the time is not yet right for that person to be saved. It could even be because God’s purpose would be better served by letting the person remain unsaved (or by letting them appear to be unsaved, if that is more consistent with your understanding of God). Whatever the reason, there are going to be people whose experience is that of rocky ground and failure to become rooted in God.

This is a great mystery... It is my belief, based upon the character of God as put forth in Scripture (good, loving, merciful, just, righteous), that whenever anyone responds in faith to the light/truth God gives them, He will respond with more light that will eventually lead to faith in Jesus Christ and salvation. Yet the Bible says that even our faith is a gift from God... I believe that what God is looking for in us before giving us faith is a willingness to seek God with an open heart and mind (to the best of our ability). See Hebrews 11:6.

I am not certain either, but I think there are many in this situation who are not given a new heart.

I agree. Sometimes the ground of our hearts must be worked upon by the Word and the Spirit before the seed can take root and be fruitful. I don't think God will give up on anyone who is willing to keep seeking after Him with an open mind.

Food4thought wrote this:
I don't think I can answer that question with certainty. Regardless of whether they were saved or not, God can and will still bring them into His fellowship if they will repent of their own works (both earning their own salvation and their sinful actions) and place their complete trust in Jesus.

I think you are saying here that they would need to go through the process of becoming a Christian all over again. And do it properly this time. But would they do this?

It is not necessarily becoming a Christian again. Confession (to God in most situations), repentance, God's forgiveness, and renewed faith in and fellowship with Christ are an integral part of living out the Christian life (1 John 1:9). Some people may not even be aware that they need to confess their sin and thus not do this, leading to a feeling of separation and distance from God. They may even lose their faith for a time, but this does not equal the deliberate renunciation of their faith as I did. I would think such a person would still be saved, just not in fellowship with God. The Spirit still dwells in them, but they are unaware of His presence.

From the viewpoint of the devil, one effective way to keep a person unsaved would be to let them think that they are already saved.

True, but another effective tool of demons would be to make a saved person think they are lost and without hope, thus leading them to live powerless against them and unfruitful even though the person's destiny is heaven.

I would suggest that you pray HONESTLY, confessing your uncertainty, confessing your sins and your willingness to turn from them to Jesus if He grants you the faith to do so, and ask God to reveal Himself to you.

Hope this helps;
mike