Understanding Islam

[WoodrowX2]

Many of Christians might be agree with you but I have to disagree. I think Jesus come to clarify OT, and before Gospel all early Christians would be using OT. The OT contains all the messages of NT, and even salvation by faith.

Here you can find the message of love in the OT. Which if taken out of context is an extremely violent book.

Here you can see how the message of love, changed the hearts of men.

The Qur"an is similar. Except it took place over a 23 year period instead of 3,000 years.

One needs to comprehend the Message that the Qur'an restored.

A very simple Message summed up in 3 short Surat



1. Surah Al-Fatihah

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6. Guide us to the Straight Way

7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger nor of those who went astray

109. Surah Al-Kaafiroon (The Disbelievers)

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad () to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

2. "I worship not that which you worship,

3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

112. Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity)

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.

2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

That is what the Qur'an teaches. The rest of the Qur'an is the Hows and whys and how people tried to keep the message from being spread.

Yes, there are people who fail to see it and try to use it for their personal gain. But they are not following those 3 Surat

 

[WoodrowX2]

Duplicate Post

 

[dcalling]

Here you can find the message of love in the OT. Which if taken out of context is an extremely violent book.

Only a tiny part of the OT is very violent, and those are given directly by God so I can't judge on that. The commandments given by God is full of mercy and good.

The Qur"an is similar. Except it took place over a 23 year period instead of 3,000 years.

One needs to comprehend the Message that the Qur'an restored.

A very simple Message summed up in 3 short Surat

Take a look at the 3 Surah you provided,
Surah Al-Fatihah, Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity) are poets saying how God is good (but didn't really say what to do). The second one says "To you be your religion, and to me my religion" (in summary), which Muhammad seems to violate.

God care about hearts more than actions, but a heart filled with grace from God will act out accordingly.

 

[LoAmmi]

Many of Christians might be agree with you but I have to disagree. I think Jesus come to clarify OT, and before Gospel all early Christians would be using OT. The OT contains all the messages of NT, and even salvation by faith.

Really? Salvation from Hellfire by faith in the Tanach? Could you please point that out to me?

I think Christians have been pretty successful in taking snips of the Tanach and using it to justify their beliefs, but most of the time when I am presented with them I only need to read a few sentences back or forward to dismiss those claims.

 

[simplegifts]

Here you can find the message of love in the OT. Which if taken out of context is an extremely violent book.

Here you can see how the message of love, changed the hearts of men.

The Qur"an is similar. Except it took place over a 23 year period instead of 3,000 years.

One needs to comprehend the Message that the Qur'an restored.

A very simple Message summed up in 3 short Surat



1. Surah Al-Fatihah

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6. Guide us to the Straight Way

7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger nor of those who went astray

109. Surah Al-Kaafiroon (The Disbelievers)

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad () to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

2. "I worship not that which you worship,

3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

112. Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity)

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.

2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

That is what the Qur'an teaches. The rest of the Qur'an is the Hows and whys and how people tried to keep the message from being spread.

Yes, there are people who fail to see it and try to use it for their personal gain. But they are not following those 3 Surat

One thing many people, not just Muslims have wrong is the understanding of the word begotten.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

monogenēs
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

mono = alone, sole genēs=kind, species

The use of the word in Scripture is not in connection with the thought of begetting, but that the child is one of a kind, an only child.

Christ is the only one who is God's Word incarnate. Incarnate meaning covered in flesh and logos [word] being wisdom, divine reason of God.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

You missed the previous part, 20:11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

So the Bible says (to the Israelis at the time) if they accept offer of peace, they can still live. Muhammad on the other hand, killed them after their surrender.

First of all, that punishment was not given by the Prophet. It was given by Sa'ad ibn Mu'adh, a convert to Islaam from Judaism, who was part of the tribe of al-'Aws and they were allies of Banu Quraydhah. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon my beloved) did say, after Sa'ad had issued the punishment, that he had ruled according to God's judgement.

Secondly, the Muslims DID offer them protection through the treaty/covenant. But Banu Quraydhah broke the treaty and broke it at a time when the Muslims were being besieged by other non-Muslims of Arabia. They wanted to harm the Prophet and the Muslims. They committed high treason and broke the covenant AFTER agreeing to peace and were unrepentant about it. The punishment fit the crime.

Even after their grave betrayal, a few of the warriors were spared because they repented and accepted Islaam.

And there are many hadithes (I have shown one in the post above) that show Muhammad doing raids/loots without at random, seemingly disregard the Quran passages about how the killings/lootings should stop if they repent.

As the link that 'Amo Woodrowx2 gave shows, that tribe was confirmed to be mobilizing against the Muslims and that's why the Muslims attacked.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

[SNIP]
Ibn Kathir is one of the most trusted Islamic scholars.

*sigh* Addressed the same exact points here and here.

Part of what I said:

Try reading other things that al-Hafidh ibn Katheer wrote in his tafseer (of 2:190):

(...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you'....

 

[LoAmmi]

I just don't understand why all the discussion about Islam has to center around battles that happened over a thousand years ago. How about actual theology and actual beliefs of people?

Do I not like the parts of Islamic theology that basically show a war between Jews and Muslims? Nope. However, the Tanach describes a war between Israel and EVERYBODY ELSE. So what's the big difference in the end? Except for the specific Muslims who are going off the rails and beheading people, the majority of Muslims I meet just want to live their lives in peace.

 

[dcalling]

Really? Salvation from Hellfire by faith in the Tanach? Could you please point that out to me?

I think Christians have been pretty successful in taking snips of the Tanach and using it to justify their beliefs, but most of the time when I am presented with them I only need to read a few sentences back or forward to dismiss those claims.

Habakkuk 2:4
"Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but other righteous shall live by his faith"

and Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness." God has not given law yet so Abraham is been called righteousness because he believed the Lord.

There are many others I think. The story of Gideon kind of pop up in my head. The situation was pretty bad for the Jews and God raised up Gideon to save them. Initially Gideon was not trusting God at all, test God several times (When I first read the story I was thinking, why did Gideon doubt the Lord?? But now I kind of understand, we are reading the Bible and he listened to what might be an angle), but he trusted the Lord, did what God asked at the end.

Of course I might be wrong and they could mean something else, but I suspect it should not be too far off.

 

[LoAmmi]

Habakkuk 2:4
"Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but other righteous shall live by his faith"

and Genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness." God has not given law yet so Abraham is been called righteousness because he believed the Lord.

There are many others I think. The story of Gideon kind of pop up in my head. The situation was pretty bad for the Jews and God raised up Gideon to save them. Initially Gideon was not trusting God at all, test God several times (When I first read the story I was thinking, why did Gideon doubt the Lord?? But now I kind of understand, we are reading the Bible and he listened to what might be an angle), but he trusted the Lord, did what God asked at the end.

Of course I might be wrong and they could mean something else, but I suspect it should not be too far off.

You basically show the problem here. There is no idea of being sentenced to Hellfire unless one has faith in any of the quotes you put forth. That's one of the most radical changes I see from the Tanach to the New Testament and, perhaps, the one that puts me completely off Christianity.

I have asked Christians this before with regard to Abraham only needing faith.

Had Abraham failed to follow the commands given to him by HaShem, would him having faith still be credited as righteousness?

 

[dcalling]

First of all, that punishment was not given by the Prophet. It was given by Sa'ad ibn Mu'adh, a convert to Islaam from Judaism, who was part of the tribe of al-'Aws and they were allies of Banu Quraydhah. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon my beloved) did say, after Sa'ad had issued the punishment, that he had ruled according to God's judgement.

So Muhammad approved it anyway.

.....They committed high treason and broke the covenant AFTER agreeing to peace and were unrepentant about it. The punishment fit the crime.

They didn't attack anyone, they surrendered, it is still called unrepentant.

Even after their grave betrayal, a few of the warriors were spared because they repented and accepted Islaam.

According to wiki all male are killed, but of course sources differ.

As the link that 'Amo Woodrowx2 gave shows, that tribe was confirmed to be mobilizing against the Muslims and that's why the Muslims attacked.

They are mobilizing against the Muslims yet they are heedless. Let's assume they did that, how about the following passage?

Sahih Muslim 5917:
Allah's Messenger called Ali: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: "Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…"

There is no issue to fight the people other than to bear testimony. That is in violation of the Quran verse about "to you your religion and to me mine".

 

[dcalling]

I just don't understand why all the discussion about Islam has to center around battles that happened over a thousand years ago. How about actual theology and actual beliefs of people?

Do I not like the parts of Islamic theology that basically show a war between Jews and Muslims? Nope. However, the Tanach describes a war between Israel and EVERYBODY ELSE. So what's the big difference in the end? Except for the specific Muslims who are going off the rails and beheading people, the majority of Muslims I meet just want to live their lives in peace.

We are just trying to prove if Muhammad is indeed God's messenger. So I am showing evidences that Muhammad might violated Quran with his own deeds.

I think the Bible teaches us the world will be against Israel and God. But real people of faith does not belong to the world and will be on the side of God.

 

[dcalling]

You basically show the problem here. There is no idea of being sentenced to Hellfire unless one has faith in any of the quotes you put forth. That's one of the most radical changes I see from the Tanach to the New Testament and, perhaps, the one that puts me completely off Christianity.

I have asked Christians this before with regard to Abraham only needing faith.

Had Abraham failed to follow the commands given to him by HaShem, would him having faith still be credited as righteousness?

It is very strange why people keep telling hell fire about Bible. I have found very little reference to hell, most of Bible is telling people how to live their lives.

And for the second question, if Abraham don't have faith, he will not follow the commands. He only follow the commands because of his faith, and if he has no faith HaShem won't pick him

 

[LoAmmi]

It is very strange why people keep telling hell fire about Bible. I have found very little reference to hell, most of Bible is telling people how to live their lives.

Hey, if I didn't have to hear John 3:16 and be told I'm going to Hell for being a Jew, I'd stop thinking about it.

And for the second question, if Abraham don't have faith, he will not follow the commands. He only follow the commands because of his faith, and if he has no faith HaShem won't pick him

Well, you're pretty good because now you can see why I follow Torah.

 

[dcalling]

Hey, if I didn't have to hear John 3:16 and be told I'm going to Hell for being a Jew, I'd stop thinking about it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No hell fire mentioned anywhere, no Jew mentioned anywhere, it has the good news of eternal life. I am confused.

Well, you're pretty good because now you can see why I follow Torah.

I follow Torah as well

 

[LoAmmi]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No hell fire mentioned anywhere, no Jew mentioned anywhere, it has the good news of eternal life. I am confused.

Don't meet many missionaries, do you? LOL It moves quickly from that to "what do you suppose happens to those who don't do that?"

 

[dcalling]

Don't meet many missionaries, do you? LOL It moves quickly from that to "what do you suppose happens to those who don't do that?"

According to the verse you quoted:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

They perish, just like all other humans. Do you meet many missionaries? Do they quotes hell fire?

 

[gord44]

According to the verse you quoted:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

They perish, just like all other humans. Do you meet many missionaries? Do they quotes hell fire?

You are still beating around the bush. John 3:16 is just one verse. What perish means is expounded throughout the rest of the NT.

 

[dcalling]

You are still beating around the bush. John 3:16 is just one verse. What perish means is expounded throughout the rest of the NT.

Verses please?

 

[gord44]

You have a bible good sir. Go have a gander yourself.