Understanding Islam

[BaconWizard]

His Names and Attributes are what make God, God.

Those attributes being well beyond any limitation you might place upon him, and not something you have the ability to judge. Or are you divine yourself?

 

[WoodrowX2]

Those attributes being well beyond any limitation you might place upon him, and not something you have the ability to judge. Or are you divine yourself?

We know very little of the names and attributes of Allaah(swt) only 99 names are given in the Qur'an. But we do know Allaah(swt) is infinite therefore so are His attribute

(Names and Attributes are sort of interchangeable, in Arabic a Name is an attribute)

 

[dcalling]

You might as well be asking me why God can't become part Satan and part, I don't know, tree (I seek refuge with God from such blasphemy). God is the Most High and we don't believe Him becoming His creation is befitting to His Majesty.

Not becaming his creation, but put part of himself, or his spirit, into his creation. I think Muhammad said God can live near your Jaguar vein. So God can certainly put part of himself into some living being.

The Names and Attributes of God told to us in Islaam make so much more sense to me than anything else. There is nothing like unto Allaah, as He told us in the Qur'aan. God also does not tire, eat, drink, have to excrete the waste from those things. He cannot be overcome and He definitely cannot be killed. To say this would be to go against the Qur'aan and what we know of Allaah. If you are interested in learning more about God's Names/Attributes, you can read it here.

The bible teaches the same.

Yet we still have the Christians' extremely bloodthirsty & violent history to look at throughout centuries with no sustained period of time where they ruled with justice and peace. Muslims, on the other hand, did....and we're the ones with the clear guidelines for war.

There are bloodthirsty Christians just as there are blood thirst Muslims. However it is another matter when Jesus come, give his summation of the rule of God, that one should Love their neighbor as themselves, and Muhammad, claim to have confirm the Torah and Gospel, still did such violence, attacked peaceful people without any reason. Jesus let the sinner women go, and he killed prisoners.

No, they won't. Who were the Muslims on this forum who disagreed with the notion that the current scriptures that the Jews & Christians hold today are corrupted? I think the only people who keep trying to claim this are non-Muslims.

I will be really surprised if you think the Torah and Gospel are not corrupt? All the others I meet claim the Torah and Gospel are corrupt, Woodrow included. I showed them the Quran passages but they rather disagree with Quran lol.

What do you mean? I don't think either of us believe that Islaam is a pacifist religion. And I would venture to guess that both of us believe that Islaam brings peace, both in the spiritual sense and in the societal sense.

But even if we disagreed, what's your point?

I did held that Islam was a religion of peace before, after Woodrow's introduction. But later after learned more of the Ahadithes I think Muhammad interpreted it otherwise.

ISIS has killed lots of Syrian rebels (including those whom the West would label as "Islamists") en masse as well and there were reports from the other Syrian rebels that Assad would not engage ISIS in fights. In fact, one big criticism leveled against ISIS by scholars and rebels is that they are often found fighting against the rebels instead of against Assad. They also swoop in at the last minute when the rebels have just about won against the Syrian government in some places and claim the victory and freed area as theirs.

Either Assad has his supporters infiltrating ISIS or he just leaves them alone for the most part because he knows they're beneficial to him. Not only do they fight against the rebels, thus forcing the other rebels to fight on two fronts, but it also stokes the West's fears which may lead to them fighting against the Syrian rebels.

ISIS recently conquered multiple military bases of Assad and killed many. ISIS and Assad are definitely not on the same terms.

ISIS' actions are much more similar to what your scriptures say God commanded at times. This is getting repetitive.

There are a few actions in the Torah that are violent and I don't understand, but I can't judge God. All I know is Jesus come and you can only find love in the Gospel. Even in Torah there are laws that requires people to help their enemy to recover their cattle.

I already gave some options:

1.) They agree with ISIS' extremist views
2.) They actually believed that ISIS was going to have a real khilaafah (i.e. they were sincere but very misinformed)
3.) They are some sort of infiltrators.

What? I don't know which incident you're talking about, but I can generally say that I am angry because Buddhist extremists/terrorists are targeting Muslims in Burma and Sri Lanka. In Burma, for instance, a Muslim Rohingya woman's three children were burned to death and another 2 of her children died on a boat as they were fleeing the persecution. And I can't find it right now, but another parent was describing the impaling of their child on a sword by the extremists.

Neither Burma's actions nor Assad's are "tiny" things.

All violence should be condamed, however you are way too one sided. There are 5 kids killed and you are rightfully angry, but why the silence when thousands are killed, raped, beheaded, sold to slave including children in Syria and Iraq?

I never answered because I haven't responded to the post yet.

God protect me from such a terrible decision and may He help those who have to live under the oppression of any of those three.

....

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Not becaming his creation, but put part of himself, or his spirit, into his creation. I think Muhammad said God can live near your Jaguar vein. So God can certainly put part of himself into some living being.

No, Allaah is separate from His creation and there is nothing like unto Him.

Saying that Allah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with His slaves by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the ayah (interpretation of the meaning):


...And We are nearer to him than [his] jugular vein. (Surah Qaf 50:16)

Most of the mufassireen (exegesists) said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

Allah is Above His Throne and He is Close to us by His Knowledge - islamqa.info

There are bloodthirsty Christians just as there are blood thirst Muslims

My point being that the rules of war and conduct laid out in Islaam paved the way for long periods of just rule. Others may have been spared from committing genocides in their history had they had similar rules instead of just pacifism since that proved to be unrealistic for them and often their rule was quite ruthless and barbaric.

I will be really surprised if you think the Torah and Gospel are not corrupt? All the others I meet claim the Torah and Gospel are corrupt, Woodrow included. I showed them the Quran passages but they rather disagree with Quran lol.

Oh, I thought you were saying something else before.

We are not disagreeing with the Qur'aan, you are. I believe I have given this link before: Evidence That Islam Teaches That There Was Textual Corruption of The Christian and Jewish Scriptures

If you still don't understand it after reading it, then I don't know what to tell you.

I did held that Islam was a religion of peace before, after Woodrow's introduction. But later after learned more of the Ahadithes I think Muhammad interpreted it otherwise.

If you mean a pacifist religion, we are definitely not that. But it certainly brings peace to the souls of its followers and to the society that rules by it.

ISIS recently conquered multiple military bases of Assad and killed many. ISIS and Assad are definitely not on the same terms.

I don't mean that all of ISIS are those working for Assad, I said some and I also said infiltrated as part of a covert operation.

There are a few actions in the Torah that are violent and I don't understand, but I can't judge God.

So even if your interpretation of Islaam was correct (it's not), then why do you condemn the Prophet Muhammad for his actions (though some of what you ascribe to him are not his actions, but even if they were) if he is acting according to God's commandments?

All I know is Jesus come and you can only find love in the Gospel. Even in Torah there are laws that requires people to help their enemy to recover their cattle.

So you'll defend the Torah, but you won't try to understand Islaam properly and will attack it for milder things than what is in the Torah?

For instance, look at this general rule:

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Surah al-Maaidah 5:8)

All violence should be condamed, however you are way too one sided.

I focus on the areas that I focus on because most non-Muslims are not given a similar coverage of them as they are of other places that they are interested by and I, as a Muslim, would like to present the world in probably a much different way that they see it.

There are 5 kids killed and you are rightfully angry,

There are FAR more than 5 children killed. Those were just examples. The UN has called the Rohingya people one of the most persecuted minoritities in the world.

This Group Faces Terrifying Persecution, And You May Have Never Heard About It

Here's a short video about them:

[youtube]rLlh2WpTqj0[/youtube]

but why the silence when thousands are killed, raped, beheaded, sold to slave including children in Syria and Iraq?

1.) Because there isn't a shortage of those threads/posts/viewpoints on this forum nor do most people support ISIS.

2.) Why are you silent about what happened in Egypt, Syria, Burma, Chechnya, East Turkestan, CAR, etc? Why do you not start threads showing graphic pictures of those who are killed in those regions?

....

It's a would-you-rather-die-by-ingesting-rat-poison-or-bleach scenario.

I would not choose to live under any of them. That is why I asked God to protect me from having to make such a terrible choice and help those who live under their oppression.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Those attributes being well beyond any limitation you might place upon him, and not something you have the ability to judge. Or are you divine yourself?

I'm not sure what you're having trouble with.

Here is the conversation and the parts you found objectionable from my posts:

Why can't God put a part of himself into a human? i.e. God can put his spirit into a human, so that human acts/speaks exactly as what God would?

God is the Most High and we don't believe Him becoming His creation is befitting to His Majesty.

You do not get to speak for God, God gets to speak for you.

This reduces the response of any offended theistic party to bruised ego and nothing more.

And God says,

[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. (Ash-Shuraa 42:11)

Say: He is Allaah, the One. Allaah, the Self-Subsisting. He begets not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. (Surah al-Ikhlaas 1-4)

Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them - so worship Him and have patience for His worship. Do you know of any similarity to Him?" (Surah Maryam 19:65)

He, Himself, said that there is nothing (i.e. His creation) like unto Him. His Names and Attributes are what make God, God.

So I showed how Allaah, Himself, is telling us that there is nothing like unto Him. What I said is perfectly in line with what Islaam teaches.

 

[dcalling]

For some reason I can't quote, so I will response without quotes for now.

1. God can be anywhere God wants, nothing can prevent that, as you said, there is nothing like God, and you can't describe all aspects of God.

2. There are many links I can find, examples are HERE and HERE. But Sura al-Ma'ida 5:43-45 has clearly states that Christians can be judged by Gospel, and some other Surah said God's word can't be changed. The Gospel is formed hundreds of years before Quran, did God's word lost during those years?

It is so clear that Muhammad didn't say the Gospel/Torah is lost/corrupted, why all the Muslims claims such?

3. God's commandments are clear, no murder, no steal, no covet, no adultery, love your neighbor. It is very strict too, Jesus said look at woman lustfully and it is adultery. In Islam, Muhammad allowed sex with slave girls or captives (himself did this at least once). This is a direct contradiction with what God commands, for example if another Muslim army (maybe ISIS) captures you, they are allowed to do such things on you, which is not allowed (i.e. the commandment of no adultery).

Some call Christians pacifists. It takes brave soul to truly follow God's directions, as they are so impossibly hard, only the ones who truly truest God and God's judgement can do so. Read Mattew 5, that is the word of God, I believe in that because it is not easy, it is not to kill your enemies and loot them, it is to love your enemies, hard, and that is why no one can go to heaven by their own works, except through God's grace.

 

[Islam_mulia]

There are many links I can find, examples are HERE and HERE. But Sura al-Ma'ida 5:43-45 has clearly states that Christians can be judged by Gospel, and some other Surah said God's word can't be changed. The Gospel is formed hundreds of years before Quran, did God's word lost during those years?

It is so clear that Muhammad didn't say the Gospel/Torah is lost/corrupted, why all the Muslims claims such?

The message from the Injil and Torah can be found in your Gospels and Torah. God's messages are not lost. That is why we can find the truth in your Gospels.

However, if you place God's message together with words of men into a book or a number of books, and call them the Gospels according to some anonymous authors, then YOUR Gospels are NOT the original Injil. Your Gospels are not inspired by God. Not all the books of the NT are claimed by the authors to be inspired, anyway.

 

[dcalling]

The message from the Injil and Torah can be found in your Gospels and Torah. God's messages are not lost. That is why we can find the truth in your Gospels.

However, if you place God's message together with words of men into a book or a number of books, and call them the Gospels according to some anonymous authors, then YOUR Gospels are NOT the original Injil. Your Gospels are not inspired by God. Not all the books of the NT are claimed by the authors to be inspired, anyway.

There might be words of man in NT and OT, but as you said, God's word is not lost (even after all the translations).

None of the prophets in OT claim the Torah is lost, when Jesus came he confirmed the Torah, and never said anything about Torah is lost.

And the NT and OT are largely consistent, epically NT. If there are word of man in it, they are consistent with what God have in mind, that we should Love God, love our neighbors as ourselves, love our enemy, not to be vengeful and trust the judgement unto the Lord.

Anything not consistent with that is not from God.

 

[Islam_mulia]

There might be words of man in NT and OT, but as you said, God's word is not lost (even after all the translations).

None of the prophets in OT claim the Torah is lost, when Jesus came he confirmed the Torah, and never said anything about Torah is lost.

And the NT and OT are largely consistent, epically NT. If there are word of man in it, they are consistent with what God have in mind, that we should Love God, love our neighbors as ourselves, love our enemy, not to be vengeful and trust the judgement unto the Lord.

Anything not consistent with that is not from God.

The concern is not that the Torah or the Injil are lost, but that the OT and NT are not the Torah and Injil, respectively, but contains the messages of the old scriptures PLUS other writings of men which are not inspired by God.

 

[dcalling]

The concern is not that the Torah or the Injil are lost, but that the OT and NT are not the Torah and Injil, respectively, but contains the messages of the old scriptures PLUS other writings of men which are not inspired by God.

They may or may not be the original, but God will make sure his message is not lost, and the messages of the NT is consistent, so as long as they are in accord, it does not matter if there are the writing of men, because their message are the same.

 

[VeroObscura]

They may or may not be the original, but God will make sure his message is not lost, and the messages of the NT is consistent, so as long as they are in accord, it does not matter if there are the writing of men, because their message are the same.

Actually there are portions of both that are edited, censored and redacted. By men of and for the purposes of their place and time. So, er... Not really.

I ask by what measure, would anyone today if faced with the claims made b either Moses or Mohammed, take them at face value?

Their holiness was self-proclaimed and backed up by their cohorts just as that of Egyptian and Chinese emperors before them and Roman to boot.

Lasting success as a beneficent dictator to their own or conquered people doesn't make a word of it true.

Which leads me to a question since we are on the appropriate thread:

I have heard it said that Mohammed was the most perfect person ever to live.
By this, is it understood that he was human and therefore by nature, NOT perfect?
Also, by what standard was that judged at the time, compare with what standard would be applied today?

 

[dcalling]

Actually there are portions of both that are edited, censored and redacted. By men of and for the purposes of their place and time. So, er... Not really.

This might happened, but I will challenge you to find any conflicting messages from the NT.

I ask by what measure, would anyone today if faced with the claims made b either Moses or Mohammed, take them at face value?

Their holiness was self-proclaimed and backed up by their cohorts just as that of Egyptian and Chinese emperors before them and Roman to boot.

The bible said no man is worth of God's holiness and we can only be saved by God's grace. So all man, including Moses, are not good in God's eye. However the message of the Bible, on the whole, is good (other than some small part where I can't understand the reason). So take the 10 commandments, or the entire NT, those are good.

Lasting success as a beneficent dictator to their own or conquered people doesn't make a word of it true.

Which leads me to a question since we are on the appropriate thread:

I have heard it said that Mohammed was the most perfect person ever to live.
By this, is it understood that he was human and therefore by nature, NOT perfect?
Also, by what standard was that judged at the time, compare with what standard would be applied today?

 

[Islam_mulia]

They may or may not be the original, but God will make sure his message is not lost, and the messages of the NT is consistent, so as long as they are in accord, it does not matter if there are the writing of men, because their message are the same.

Which goes back to the point of Islam and Muslims: Christians' scriptures are NOT divinely inspired and contain many writings of men with their own agendas, although the messages of the Injil and Taurah are still in your scriptures.

 

[VeroObscura]

I will challenge you to find any conflicting messages from the NT.

This is not a measure of truth nor of divine origin

The bible said

It is the message of the bible which is in question.

the message of the Bible, on the whole, is good (other than some small part where I can't understand the reason).

And voila!
1) your judgement of good/bad is not derived from The Bible or how can you judge the contents as being one or the other, and
2) It is a flawed work. By what means do you know which parts are flawed or not, original or not?

So take the 10 commandments, or the entire NT, those are good.

No they aren't!
Seeing women as cattle is bad. One of them is a thought-crime, three of them are to do with worship, and the decalogue omits rape, slavery, enforced worship, torture, and many other very much higher priority things...

Meanwhile you haven't answered what I actually asked.

I ask by what measure, would anyone today if faced with the claims made by either Moses or Mohammed, take them at face value?

Their holiness was self-proclaimed and backed up by their cohorts just as that of Egyptian and Chinese emperors before them and Roman to boot.

 

[dcalling]

Which goes back to the point of Islam and Muslims: Christians' scriptures are NOT divinely inspired and contain many writings of men with their own agendas, although the messages of the Injil and Taurah are still in your scriptures.

Lets take the Gospel for example. God's message is not lost in the Gospel (which you seems to agree), and after I read the entire Gospel, the message of the Gospel, no matter it is from this or that author, are consistent, all in agreement of Love (of your neighbor or enemy), forgive and not judge others (sinners included), and no violence.

Muhammad on the other hand, is inconsistent, not only inconsistent to the principal of the Gospel (instead of forgive or love his enemies, he loots and conquers them), he run contradict to the Quran at times.

 

[dcalling]

This is not a measure of truth nor of divine origin

It is the message of the bible which is in question.

When in question, analyze it.

And voila!
1) your judgement of good/bad is not derived from The Bible or how can you judge the contents as being one or the other, and
2) It is a flawed work. By what means do you know which parts are flawed or not, original or not?

1. We have something in us that is from God, which allowed us to know good/bad. This is what separated us from machines, anything material don't know good/bad.

2. Same as above.

No they aren't!
Seeing women as cattle is bad. One of them is a thought-crime, three of them are to do with worship, and the decalogue omits rape, slavery, enforced worship, torture, and many other very much higher priority things...

I specifically said NT. I am not claiming much about the OT, because I also got questions.

Meanwhile you haven't answered what I actually asked.

I ask by what measure, would anyone today if faced with the claims made by either Moses or Mohammed, take them at face value?

Their holiness was self-proclaimed and backed up by their cohorts just as that of Egyptian and Chinese emperors before them and Roman to boot.

Read their writings. For example, I still have not found flaws in Buddhist's writings, other than it didn't help me as well as the Gospel. And I have done a lot of reading of the Quran, if you saw my posts with some of our Muslim friends here you will know why I think Quran or Muhammad is flawed.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Lets take the Gospel for example. God's message is not lost in the Gospel (which you seems to agree), and after I read the entire Gospel, the message of the Gospel, no matter it is from this or that author, are consistent, all in agreement of Love (of your neighbor or enemy), forgive and not judge others (sinners included), and no violence.

My points:

i) The message of love is available in all religious scriptures. the Gospels have no monopoly in the outreach to love;

ii) The key message of the Injil,revealed to Jesus (pbuh), was to be ministered to the Jews during his time, and not for all mankind and for all times. It comes with no surprise that the Injil did not preach violence against the Romans but peace to the 'enemies'. If the message was war, it would wipe out the followers of Christ in the bud. Reading the Gospels in the context of the Roman occupation might be useful;

iii) Having said that, the Gospels may be deemed incomplete to address the challenges of the modern world. At times, the message is rather impractical - how do you love your enemies when they come to kill your family? I have not come accross any Christian leaders who followed this teaching and be meek as a mouse when it comes to counter the enemies.

iv) The Gospels are full of inconsistencies and errors, even outright misrepresentation of the OT messages by phantom writers. For example, the Immanuel in the OT can never be a prophecy of Christ, no matter how you twist it.

 

[simplegifts]

My points:

i) The message of love is available in all religious scriptures. the Gospels have no monopoly in the outreach to love;

ii) The key message of the Injil,revealed to Jesus (pbuh), was to be ministered to the Jews during his time, and not for all mankind and for all times. It comes with no surprise that the Injil did not preach violence against the Romans but peace to the 'enemies'. If the message was war, it would wipe out the followers of Christ in the bud. Reading the Gospels in the context of the Roman occupation might be useful;

iii) Having said that, the Gospels may be deemed incomplete to address the challenges of the modern world. At times, the message is rather impractical - how do you love your enemies when they come to kill your family? I have not come accross any Christian leaders who followed this teaching and be meek as a mouse when it comes to counter the enemies.

iv) The Gospels are full of inconsistencies and errors, even outright misrepresentation of the OT messages by phantom writers. For example, the Immanuel in the OT can never be a prophecy of Christ, no matter how you twist it.

Please point to the message of love in the Quran.

You are forgetting the great commission.

That is why there is need of separation of mosque/church and state.

Think about it WHY would people put together books that contradict without a verse like the one in the Quran about later verses being better verses?

Separate Matthew, Mark, Luke and John do not give a complete message together a fuller and complete message. Remember these are eyewitness accounts, different people remember certain things that others do not.

 

[VeroObscura]

Think about it WHY would people put together books that contradict without a verse like the one in the Quran about later verses being better verses?

My understanding was that this is supposed to happen. Saudi for example (our extreme Wahabist allies) simply break this rule and are regarded by most Muslims as religiously corrupt. I don't have details though, it's just what I was told.

 

[dcalling]

My points:

i) The message of love is available in all religious scriptures. the Gospels have no monopoly in the outreach to love;

It is outreach of love, and shows us we are all sinners.

ii) The key message of the Injil,revealed to Jesus (pbuh), was to be ministered to the Jews during his time, and not for all mankind and for all times. It comes with no surprise that the Injil did not preach violence against the Romans but peace to the 'enemies'. If the message was war, it would wipe out the followers of Christ in the bud. Reading the Gospels in the context of the Roman occupation might be useful;

It simply told us how God want us to be, and none of us can follow it because we are not God. In the Gospel Jesus simply give himself up. He trusted God for all judgement, none of us can do the same.

If God wanted, Jesus can easily bring up an army and conquered, but instead God showed us love and mercy.

iii) Having said that, the Gospels may be deemed incomplete to address the challenges of the modern world. At times, the message is rather impractical - how do you love your enemies when they come to kill your family? I have not come accross any Christian leaders who followed this teaching and be meek as a mouse when it comes to counter the enemies.

That is the word of God. He want all of us to trust in him instead of acting on ourselves. It is hard, but true followers of God will do that. I heard our church elders pray for Iraqi Christians, Sardis and even ISIS members. I know people who lost their child forgive the killers of their kids. God said if you don't forgive the sin of others, God will not forgive your sin. There is no room for impurities in heaven, and you can't enter heaven just by killing your enemies.

iv) The Gospels are full of inconsistencies and errors, even outright misrepresentation of the OT messages by phantom writers. For example, the Immanuel in the OT can never be a prophecy of Christ, no matter how you twist it.

There might be errors, but the message of God is consistent, even with many translations. Immanuel means 'God is with us', so is Jesus (Yeshua). The use of Immanuel is to let King Ahaz trust God and not any foreign rulers, of course the King made the logical choice to form alliances instead of trusting God. It is the same for us, God told us to trust in him, not in the forces, but few listen (Christians/Muslims alike).