Understanding God's origins: Ugaritic Texts

[Crunchtime89]

I've been a Christian my entire life and I've always feared God almighty...

however, ive recently discovered the ugaritic texts along with sumerian tablets which predate the hebrews as well as phoenicians/canaanites as well....

ive been distraught lately trying to figure out what to refer to god as... Jehovah? Elohim? El? El Shaddai? Elyon? Yahweh? Baal (which means master/lord in Hebrew)?

There are so many names... and i just find it even more awkward that El, Elyon, and yahweh are among the pantheon of the Ugaritic (pre-canaanite) texts....

Ive been kind of in a limbo state with God lately... How can I take his word seriously (about not having any other gods before him) when he's one among the many Canaanite pantheon deities?

I'm well aware of the Hebrew lexicon, however, I don't know the details of the language...

Tell me why/how if you read Genesis, Numbers, and Exodus, "God" (not to denote Him, but im unsure of his TRUE name) he shifts from plural (Elohim) to singular (El, Elyon, Shaddai, Jehovah [YHWH])... He even presented himself to Abraham as "El" to indicate some sort of familiarity within his peoples' polytheistic religion... Elyon is used three times in genesis (if im not mistaken, which im sure i am) and Shaddai was used as well... Are these mere adjectives or are they in fact all singular separate deities representing "one" God?

The old testament is so erratic at keeping ONE name of the Lord consistent (in Hebrew).... Elohim created the Heavens and Earth... Elohim spoke to moses, yet a few verses later, it was Jehovah that spake unto Moses seemingly 10 minutes after the fact ELOHIM spoke to him! God presented himself as "El" to Abram... God was satisfied at being called "Baal" at one point until possibly the rise of other "Baals" (masters/lords)... All of these examples of which I speak are from the Bible IN HEBREW... If you read it in English you will not know what I'm talking about...

As we know, the Ugaritic texts pre-date the Hebrews and the fact these deities names pre-date the bible, you can see the cultural relativity....

Help me brothers & sisters.. im at a fork in the road in my life right now, i want to give my all to God but im afraid his origins are of polytheistic backgrounds and its tough to take his word seriously if this is true...

Lately I've been serving God blindly. Mainly out of fear instead of love (because I can't love anything if I'm in the dark about WHO He is). I hate that I feel this way but I'm being honest. I want to serve God with love and not just fear because of his wrath. I know WHAT He is (the almighty) however I don't know WHO he is (multitude of names from a polytheistic pre-hebrew pantheon)... I read the Bible almost every single day so don't tell me to read up on him I've been doing this my entire life... This question is outside of the bible about what's inside of the bible, not the other way around...

Much gratitude upon your reponse(s)!

PS: Here is an example of my weight of confusion:

A) Aaron crafted a golden bull to satisfy the Jews as a representation of "God". This is ironic because "El" was a bull god in the Ugaritic (canaanite) texts/pantheon.

B) To counter A, Moses was irate as much as God was about what Aaron/the Jews had done. Moses was the first to see God physically (face-to-backside) and the fact that the bull wasn't acceptable to Moses or God says that this was an example of digging up the past and falsely misrepresenting God's true image and name. They attributed Jehovah (or Elohim) for "El" of the Ugaritic pantheon. Consequently, this infuriated God.

Boy this is probably the most stressful time in my life. Being only 24 years old, I've had some stressful situations, but this takes the cake.

 

[ChristianT]

Proto-Judaism most likely grew out of the surrounding polytheistic Semitic and previous religions, as Abraham was called out by God, and I think I recall his father was thought to have worshipped several gods of his land.

Well, Judaism at its earliest state would have been henotheistic: God, our God, is supreme and above all, almighty, and greater than any god. The Hebrews were to worship God alone, but seeing him as one of many, that's most likely why the asherah worship and Baal worship (rather than God, as there was some difference) occurred.

As to why or how we should understand and worship God, the one and true, I say for the fact that He is true. In the New Testament, Paul evangelized to the Gentiles and he said that their unknown god was the One True God. And I think that if God wanted to reveal himself to us, he'd have to use our language and understanding to have us understand. So He revealed Himself to ancient people and the one true God shines through what is false. Now, I think "Yah" is a standard name for God, along with modern Jewish "Shem" or "HaShem," for "the Name" signifying the holy name of His.

 

[miamited]

I've been a Christian my entire life and I've always feared God almighty...

Help me brothers & sisters.. im at a fork in the road in my life right now, i want to give my all to God but im afraid his origins are of polytheistic backgrounds and its tough to take his word seriously if this is true...

Hi C,

You're young and I can relate. I was also a very, very weak believer (I say that for your benefit as I would actually now classify myself then as an unbeliever) for many, many years of my life. I really didn't come to know God, and was born again, until my 40's. However, I was raised in a family that was near always at worship services, parents sang in the choir, did the summer youth camp thing, etc. etc.

Here's what I've learned. If it helps you, great.

I began my born again life on my knees and asking God for an unquenchable thirst to know and understand Him through His word. If you don't feel that you're at the point in your life where you are ready to trust the one who made you and all things in this realm, then I'd suggest you hold off yet a bit on that. If, as you claim, you really are ready to follow your Creator in love, then by all means I'd encourage you take some time to set your heart to the things of God and find a quiet place to humble your heart towards Him and ask for the same thing that I did.

However, be careful what you ask for because my experience was much like Paul's. Having met the risen Lord and deciding to seek the wisdom and knowledge of God through this request of an unquenchable thirst, I spent the next 2 years unable to put His word down. Praying on my knees and studying His word. Praying on my knees some more and studying His word. He answered my request. He did give me an unquenchable thirst that could only be slaked by sitting and reading and devouring His truth to me.

So, I would encourage that as your first step when you really believe you're ready to love and follow your Creator. Of course, as with anything that you ask of your God, don't ask with doubt or a double minded spirit.

Over the course of that 2 years of study, here's more of what I have come to understand.

The only written documents that we can trust to be true are the Scriptures that were delivered to mankind through the Jews. Now, I'm confident that your first response will be, "Well, why in the world should I trust them over any other historic documents written by a race of people as to the beginning of all things and the god or gods that they write about?"

Well, you're probably not ready to believe all of this, but just so you have a foundational framework from which you might build true and lasting faith and love in God if that's really what your heart seeks, here goes.

About 6,000 years ago God created this entire realm of existence. Everything that exists in our physical realm, from all the planets and stars to all the animals and plants and molecules upon the earth, didn't exist prior to that time. Yes, I understand that that's probably not what you believe and certainly isn't what you've been taught, but as I say, I'm just giving you a foundational framework. What you do with it beyond this time is up to you. You may dismiss it out of hand or you may lay it down as your foundation and build your faith upon it.

About 4,000 years ago God inserted Himself into His creation to begin to work out His plan to save some of mankind. He called a man by the name of Abram and began through his descendants to build a nation of people who would serve His purpose. That purpose was to write down all that He would direct, through His Holy Spirit, for them to write down and to bring into the world, also through His people, the Messiah, the Savior of those who would trust and believe God and then become the people that we find in the last two chapters of the Revelation.

So, here's the bottom line. The Ugarit texts, the Hammurabi scrolls, the writings of the great Buddha and Muhammad, they do not know the truth because they were not written by the one who knows the truth. Civilizations throughout history have set out to put down some framework by which they might explain and understand their existence and the existence of the creation, but only one set of writings were written by a people raised up for the express purpose of receiving their knowledge of what to write by the one who knows the truth and did create all things. Those are the Jews. Paul makes this very clear when he asks the rhetorical question, "What value is there in being a Jew? I tell you much in every way. But chief among them is that they were entrusted with the very oracles of God."

Study that small piece of the Scriptures and you will find a veritable goldmine of information that answers your very question. First, Paul writes that there are many reasons that one might find value in being a Jew. He says, "...much in every way." So, surely Paul thinks that there are a lot of good reasons for someone to desire to be a Jew. But look at his answer. He didn't give any list of 2, 3 or 10 things to support his claim that there was "...much in every way." No, he gives one reason and he explains that that one reason is the chief - the most important - reason for being a Jew. That they were entrusted with the very oracles of God.

He doesn't give any credit to the Ugarit texts. He doesn't mention the Hammurabi scrolls. He gives full credit to our having the truth because God entrusted the Jews, His people raised up for that very purpose from the loins of Abraham, with the truth.

Finally, the Scriptures find support in their being the truth by prophecy. Fulfilled and yet unfulfilled prophecy. Do the Ugarit wittings have any long term fulfilled prophecy by which one might say to themselves, "Well, this must have been written by someone who knows the truth because they correctly foretell the future."

Despite what many may say or claim, God has provided the reasonably thinking man with evidence by which he might 'prove' that the Scriptures delivered to mankind through His people are the truth. He has caused to be sprinkled liberally throughout them prophecies, that then and now, people could look at them and say, "Hey, whoever is responsible for the knowledge and words of these writings knows the future."

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[ChetSinger]

Hello Crunchtime89, and welcome to CF!

I'm pleased to answer you, because I have some familiarity with Ugaritic texts, and can point you to Christian resources regarding them.

A few years ago I was challenged by an atheist regarding them and was perturbed that I had no answer. But I did some investigating and now I do. Rather than weakening my faith, knowledge of such writings has strengthened it. So perhaps I can help.

I'm pressed for time right now so I'll have to wait until later tonight to give you a more complete answer.

But in a nutshell, the Ugaritic writings fit into Biblical history. Quite well, in fact.

I approach the Bible as a literalist. So I believe in a global flood, and that all the peoples of the world are descended from Noah's family.

So here's some food for thought: Noah and his family knew God, and even spoke with God. And when their descendants were later scattered across the earth, do you think that each and every group of them forgot everything they knew of Him?

Nah. Some would have remembered. Bits and pieces, at least. So we have societies such as Ugarit, and China, whose deities probably are (imo) the God of the Bible. Their images are distorted in various ways, but knowledge of the original God of Noah is at the root of them.

I have more to say, in detail, but I'll have more time tonight.

 

[Crunchtime89]

@Miamited

I'm aware of the Bible being the truth. The fact that it describes the Earth being round while for many centuries scientists (even other civilizations with pagan religions) thought it was flat. God also explains the water cycle way before science was even a legitimate term. Nineveh was explained and was helped discovered by scientists because of the Bible. Jesus predicted that the Romans were going to destroy the city and be rebuilt (i believe) 30 years later.

I'm not "doubtful" about the truths of the Bible and what the great Creator is. I'm just dismayed that Elohim/Jehovah had a past before the Hebrews with the Canaanites. And of that pagan religion, you find "El" "Elyon" and "Yahweh". Mind you, this is before the Hebrews or Jews that you speak of. These were the Hebrews ancestors (Abraham's people).

I've done some research on the progression of Mesopotamia and here it goes (to my understanding, please point out the flaws).

Sumerians (first civilization/first writing ever recorded) -> Phoenicians/Canaanites (City of Ugarit) -> Hebrews -> Egyptians -> Arabs (today)

As you can see, the main civilization (Sumer) moved West and spawned many semitic tribes.

I don't know Ugaritic or Sumerian, so I can't read what they say about their "Gods". I'm trying AND WANTING to find faults and flaws that don't line up with what God (of the Bible) says He is. Another thing that scares me? Jehovah (YHWH) parted the Red Sea for the Israelites to flee the Egyptians. In the Ugaritic (Canaanite) pantheon, Yahweh was a wind god. Yikes.

I appreciate your testimony brother. I don't necessarily have a "double minded" heart when I ask for things from God. I've never in my entire life swung the Atheist way, or the agnostic way, or any other way. I've always defended my faith because my faith has always been strong. Until I came across these Ugaritic texts. If these Ugaritic texts didn't predate the Hebrews' existence, I wouldn't pay this no mind. And the fact they even adopted the Canaanite terms to refer to God (And even God himself of the Bible told Abraham he is EL/Shaddai/Elyon) further prove that the cultures and deity names are almost exactly SIMILAR. El and Elyon are among the pantheon! Also Yahweh! All 3 being separate!

@ChetSinger

I can't wait. I'm wanting to know more about these Ugaritic texts so I can find flaws. But in no way shape or form do I regard the Ugaritic texts "truth" as compared to the Bible. However, it's historicity pre-dates the Bible, so the aspect of it's origin led to the Bible's format (and you can't deny that). History shows all of the Semitic civilizations and religions are strikingly similar in language, culture, philosophy, and military structure. The cultural relativity among the Sumerians and Canaanites blatantly show that the Hebrews adopted their "ways" because the Hebrews "spawned" after the Canaanites and adopted the same deity names.

Thank you all for your help, keep it coming. Let's get down to the bottom of this.

 

[gluadys]

I've been a Christian my entire life and I've always feared God almighty...

however, ive recently discovered the ugaritic texts along with sumerian tablets which predate the hebrews as well as phoenicians/canaanites as well....

ive been distraught lately trying to figure out what to refer to god as... Jehovah? Elohim? El? El Shaddai? Elyon? Yahweh? Baal (which means master/lord in Hebrew)?

There are so many names... and i just find it even more awkward that El, Elyon, and yahweh are among the pantheon of the Ugaritic (pre-canaanite) texts....

Ive been kind of in a limbo state with God lately... How can I take his word seriously (about not having any other gods before him) when he's one among the many Canaanite pantheon deities?

I'm well aware of the Hebrew lexicon, however, I don't know the details of the language...

Tell me why/how if you read Genesis, Numbers, and Exodus, "God" (not to denote Him, but im unsure of his TRUE name) he shifts from plural (Elohim) to singular (El, Elyon, Shaddai, Jehovah [YHWH])... He even presented himself to Abraham as "El" to indicate some sort of familiarity within his peoples' polytheistic religion... Elyon is used three times in genesis (if im not mistaken, which im sure i am) and Shaddai was used as well... Are these mere adjectives or are they in fact all singular separate deities representing "one" God?

The old testament is so erratic at keeping ONE name of the Lord consistent (in Hebrew).... Elohim created the Heavens and Earth... Elohim spoke to moses, yet a few verses later, it was Jehovah that spake unto Moses seemingly 10 minutes after the fact ELOHIM spoke to him! God presented himself as "El" to Abram... God was satisfied at being called "Baal" at one point until possibly the rise of other "Baals" (masters/lords)... All of these examples of which I speak are from the Bible IN HEBREW... If you read it in English you will not know what I'm talking about...

As we know, the Ugaritic texts pre-date the Hebrews and the fact these deities names pre-date the bible, you can see the cultural relativity....

Help me brothers & sisters.. im at a fork in the road in my life right now, i want to give my all to God but im afraid his origins are of polytheistic backgrounds and its tough to take his word seriously if this is true...

Lately I've been serving God blindly. Mainly out of fear instead of love (because I can't love anything if I'm in the dark about WHO He is). I hate that I feel this way but I'm being honest. I want to serve God with love and not just fear because of his wrath. I know WHAT He is (the almighty) however I don't know WHO he is (multitude of names from a polytheistic pre-hebrew pantheon)... I read the Bible almost every single day so don't tell me to read up on him I've been doing this my entire life... This question is outside of the bible about what's inside of the bible, not the other way around...

Much gratitude upon your reponse(s)!

PS: Here is an example of my weight of confusion:

A) Aaron crafted a golden bull to satisfy the Jews as a representation of "God". This is ironic because "El" was a bull god in the Ugaritic (canaanite) texts/pantheon.

B) To counter A, Moses was irate as much as God was about what Aaron/the Jews had done. Moses was the first to see God physically (face-to-backside) and the fact that the bull wasn't acceptable to Moses or God says that this was an example of digging up the past and falsely misrepresenting God's true image and name. They attributed Jehovah (or Elohim) for "El" of the Ugaritic pantheon. Consequently, this infuriated God.

Boy this is probably the most stressful time in my life. Being only 24 years old, I've had some stressful situations, but this takes the cake.

Hi, CrunchTime

Fwiw, I think what you mostly need is to immerse yourself in what you know of the work of the Holy Spirit and apply it to what you are encountering.

You are quite right about the polytheistic origins of what eventually became Jewish monotheism. And a previous poster mentioned henotheism--which is what we see practiced in most of the Old Testament. i.e. The Israelites understood they had a covenant with one God, Yahweh (or other names), but they also believed in the existence of the gods of other nations. Their God was the greatest, of course, but not, as they saw it, the only god.

Someone also mentioned Abraham's father, who, according to one Jewish tradition, not only worshipped, but made idols.

So what is happening here? God calls Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees, a Sumerian polytheistic culture in which his own father was a participant. Two generations later, when his grandson Jacob is bringing his wives and children from Haran to Canaan, Laban pursues them to retrieve the household gods which Rachel had taken-so Jacob's cousins were still worshipping many gods. And for long centuries, even as his people come to see God as "their god" they still don't think of him as one God, the only God, and often fall away from exclusive worship of him. Not until the Babylonian Exile do we start to see a focus on God as the one universal God.

Well, it takes time to change a whole culture. This is why God sent Moses, and Elijah and all the prophets: to keep reaching out to the people and teaching them the same message. It takes time and openness to the Holy Spirit for people to hear the message. And that is largely what the work of the Holy Spirit was during those centuries: reaching out to those who would listen to bring the true knowledge of God and sending them as ambassadors who would take that message to the whole house of Israel.

 

[ChetSinger]

I've been a Christian my entire life and I've always feared God almighty...

however, ive recently discovered the ugaritic texts along with sumerian tablets which predate the hebrews as well as phoenicians/canaanites as well....

Yep.

ive been distraught lately trying to figure out what to refer to god as... Jehovah? Elohim? El? El Shaddai? Elyon? Yahweh? Baal (which means master/lord in Hebrew)?

There are so many names... and i just find it even more awkward that El, Elyon, and yahweh are among the pantheon of the Ugaritic (pre-canaanite) texts....

Ive been kind of in a limbo state with God lately... How can I take his word seriously (about not having any other gods before him) when he's one among the many Canaanite pantheon deities?

Tell me why/how if you read Genesis, Numbers, and Exodus, "God" (not to denote Him, but im unsure of his TRUE name) he shifts from plural (Elohim) to singular (El, Elyon, Shaddai, Jehovah [YHWH])... He even presented himself to Abraham as "El" to indicate some sort of familiarity within his peoples' polytheistic religion... Elyon is used three times in genesis (if im not mistaken, which im sure i am) and Shaddai was used as well... Are these mere adjectives or are they in fact all singular separate deities representing "one" God?

I think we must be careful to distinguish between names and titles. For example, Jesus has one name: Jesus. But he has many titles, such as:

Lamb of God
Word of God
Christ
Bread of life
The true vine
The Son of Man
​

Regarding ancient deities, YHWH is a name. But the others you mentioned are actually titles:

El or Elohim: God
Elyon: God Most High
El Shaddai: God Almighty
Baal: Master​

So I just want to make it clear that just as Jesus has many titles among Christians, YHWH had many titles among Jews. Deities often had multiple labels because they had multiple attributes. Egyptian gods, for example, sometimes had five names each.

Regarding "Elohim" in particular, it isn't plural when it's used with a singular verb, which is almost every time in the scriptures. Hebrew has other words like that, such as "panim" (meaning "face"), as does English ("sheep", "deer").

And I'll say up front that I believe El of the Ugarits is the God of the Bible, that the Ugarits mistakenly called Baal (the son of God placed in authority over them) the Most High, thus giving him more honor than he deserved, and that the Jews correctly associated YHWH, being the Creator, as the Most High.

As we know, the Ugaritic texts pre-date the Hebrews and the fact these deities names pre-date the bible, you can see the cultural relativity....

Mankind had a history between the Flood and the calling of Abraham. And this is where it gets fascinating, and I think, even exciting. One key verse is this fragment from the Song of Moses:

7:
Remember the days of old;
consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you,
your elders, and they will tell you.

8:
When the Most High agave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.

9:
But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage. - Deut 32:7-9

There's a lot going on here, and scholarly papers are written about it, such as this one:

Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God

In verse 7, Moses is claiming that the elders of Israel had a reliable history that went back as far as the dispersion at Babel. Jews during Jesus time believed that when God divided up mankind into the 70 nations at Babel, he put an angelic being, called a son of God, in charge of each one (verse 8). Israel alone had direct access to God (verse 9). A key point is that Israel didn't believe YHWH was one of the Most High's 70 sons because they didn't believe that they themselves were one of the 70 nations (the nations are listed in Genesis 10).

Here's where it ties in with the Ugarits. The Ugarits also believed that El (God) had 70 sons, and that one of them, whom they called Baal, was in authority over them. They erroneously began worshiping him instead of El, and called him the Most High.

I think the Ugarits had it partly right. They were correct that God divided up the nations at Babel and assigned each one a divine minder. But they got some things wrong (like El having a wife).

But my main point is that I don't expect everything in Judaism to be original. Why should it, when Noah and his family had correct knowledge of God? Why should we expect all of their knowledge to be lost until Abraham? Wasn't Melchizedek worshiping the Most High during Abraham's time? Didn't righteous Shem live until Abraham's time?

The Ugarits aren't the only ones who seem to have kept partial knowledge of God. The ancient Chinese God, called Shang Di ("Lord of Heaven") is so much like the God of the Bible that some Christian missionaries to China preached (and still do) that they are one and the same. I think they are, and that Genesis and the Flood can still be found in the Chinese language.

If you're a Bible literalist like me, you believe all mankind has a shared parentage and a shared history, at least through Babel. We shouldn't be surprised to find evidence of that in the early history of other cultures. In fact, if the Bible is true, shouldn't we expect it?

I know I haven't addressed everything you've written, and I'll be pleased to talk about any specific questions you have and I'll answer them as best I can. In the meantime I'd like to share this link with you. It's by a Christian scholar named Dr. Michael Heiser who has published a lot of stuff on this subject (and he reads the original languages, including Ugaritic).

Early Israelite history: The Divine Council
His homepage: Michael S. Heiser

 

[Calminian]

Hi, CT89. Just wanted to say, Chet really gave you some quality information this issue—one I wasn't familiar with per se, but seems very similar to the EBLA tablet.

EBLA: Its Impact on Bible Records

But again, discoveries like this actually strengthen my faith in the accuracy of scripture, rather than challenge it. Many think Moses actually introduced hebrew history to the jews that were enslaved in Egypt, which is absurd when you consider that many of the elderly jews he was addressing in Deuteronomy actually knew Joseph before he died. In fact considering the lifespans at that time, some may have even known Jacob before he died. Only 64 years separated the death of Joseph from the birth of Moses.

Also consider that Shem lived a whopping 500 years after the flood, and was still alive at the time of Isaac's birth. We also know from archeological evidence that writing existed long before Moses and Abraham. Thus we should expect that accounts of the true God existed prior to Moses.

Some very good creationists from Henry Morris to Answers in Genesis believe that Moses compiled and translated Genesis from existing records supplied to him by his relatives in Egypt who received them from their ancestors. There are also some very good clues from the text of Genesis itself that bare evidence of prior original authors, such as mention of the book of the accounts of Adam (Gen. 5:1a).

Bottom line, I would expect writings about the true God to be out there that predate Moses. I find findings like this to be very exciting and faith strengthening. I hope that helps.

 

[miamited]

@Miamited

I'm aware of the Bible being the truth. The fact that it describes the Earth being round while for many centuries scientists (even other civilizations with pagan religions) thought it was flat. God also explains the water cycle way before science was even a legitimate term. Nineveh was explained and was helped discovered by scientists because of the Bible. Jesus predicted that the Romans were going to destroy the city and be rebuilt (i believe) 30 years later.

I'm not "doubtful" about the truths of the Bible and what the great Creator is. I'm just dismayed that Elohim/Jehovah had a past before the Hebrews with the Canaanites. And of that pagan religion, you find "El" "Elyon" and "Yahweh". Mind you, this is before the Hebrews or Jews that you speak of. These were the Hebrews ancestors (Abraham's people).

Hi, Well, that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You are dismayed that God had a past before the Hebrews with the Canaanites. First, God has had a past since before the creation event of this realm. Secondly, you're believing that He had a past with the Canaanites based on words. Let me ask you a question and this will depend on how much you know about languages and their beginnings. Do you believe that when God called Abraham that He immediately gave to his mind a foreign language by which to communicate?

I am in agreement, let's get down to the bottom of this.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Oh, and BTW, in your response to me you proclaim a strong faith. A faith that you defend and have allowed as your foundation. But that's not what you wrote in your OP, so please forgive my chastisement if it was misdirected, but I believe it was your Op that caused such ambiguity.

For example you wrote: Help me brothers & sisters.. im at a fork in the road in my life right now, i want to give my all to God but im afraid his origins are of polytheistic backgrounds and its tough to take his word seriously if this is true...

Now, perhaps I'm not reading you correctly but this statement says, "I want to give my all to God but I'm afraid his origins are polytheistic..." Now, that's a bit different than, "I have given my life to God and I am confused how these writings seem to present the same God I know as polytheistic." In your statement you claim that even though some part of your heart may 'want' to give your heart to God, there is fear that His origins are polytheistic. Friend, you don't know much about the origin of God if you're afraid that some tribal writings have misled us concerning the truth of God. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but I can tell you without any glimmer of doubt whatsoever that God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God who caused to be written by His Holy Spirit what we know today as the Scriptures, is not a polytheistic God and any writing that would claim such isn't the truth and didn't come from Him.

It would be, as I said in my previous post, mere imaginings of a civilization of what a god would be like if it were up to men to make a god. This is the crux of my instruction to you. Such empty thoughts and speech of some texts that suppose to hold up a god as the same God of Israel that cause you to doubt your faith, and yes your OP clearly shows that this is causing you angst regarding your faith, is just not true and if your faith is really what you want to claim it to be, then you should understand this.

Then you wrote: ive been distraught lately trying to figure out what to refer to god as... Jehovah? Elohim? El? El Shaddai? Elyon? Yahweh? Baal (which means master/lord in Hebrew)?

Jesus said that it is by the Holy Spirit by which we call Him Abba, Father. If you are born again of God's Holy Spirit, why is that not sufficient for you?

Then you wrote: Ive been kind of in a limbo state with God lately... How can I take his word seriously (about not having any other gods before him) when he's one among the many Canaanite pantheon deities?

So, let me get this straight. You think I should believe and trust that your faith is really like you described in your response to me, but your OP continually speaks of being in limbo about God; fearful of some knowledge that has come to you that has no certificate of authenticity as to its being the truth of God, and distraught because you can't figure out how to call on Him. Ok, if you say so.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Crunchtime89]

@miamited

Let me rephrase it all so you can understand clearly. I've had great faith up until I came across the Ugaritic texts. Haven't lost it all, but it has been shaken discovering documents that predate the Bible (OT) by roughly 1200+ years. And the deities from this canaanite civilization led to the development of the Hebrews. (borrowed names, borrowed language, borrowed deities, borrowed culture)

Once again, I don't regard these texts as truth. But it's a curveball to test my faith, I'll say that much. The fact that I'm still fighting for and defending the God that I have been worshiping my entire life after all of this information I've recently discovered show how strong my faith is. I could have easily given up and said "Judaism is a selectively monotheistic knock off from an ancient canaanite pantheon. The hell with it all I give up (excuse my language)". But no, I'm not giving up. I know He exists and his son came to die for my sins so I can have eternal life. But it's the origin of which he first appeared in history is what scares me, but IM NOT going to regard these Ugaritic texts as truth. They just have me scratching my head as a faith test.

In my mind, throughout my entire 24 years of existence, I have always thought I have been serving and worshiping the Hebrew monotheistic God. But these Ugaritic texts claim he's of a pantheon which shake my faith a wee bit.

Look, the fact that God said he was "El" "Elyon" and "YHWH" to Abraham is the MAIN reason which shakes my faith. The fact that God (in the Bible) chose to be "related" to or accepted these titles (which are of the polytheistic Canaanite pantheon that predate Judaism) scares me. If he would have told Abraham "I am not El, I am not Elyon, I am not Baal. I am not Jehovah. I am ELOHIM. Those titles you call me are of those heathens which fail to worship me and turn to their ancient pagan ways."

If God had in fact said this, these Ugaritic texts wouldn't mean a thing to me. But the fact God (in the Bible) chose to relate himself or accept these pantheistic titles from the past is what REALLY shakes me up.

It's not the pantheon that I'm worried about, because God even said "You shall have no other Gods before me. I am the most High" So clearly, as you can see, there are in fact other Gods in competition of people's worship, however, none can compare or match his righteousness and holiness. Why would he say "You shall have no other Gods before me?" when there are none to compete with him? So let's make that clear.

Mainly, it's the fact that he chose to accept and be satisfied with the pagan canaanite titles for Him.

@ChetSinger

I'd surely hope our God isn't "El" the Bull God of the Canaanites. He had a wife, Asherah. Then he was "sexually aroused" when 2 women (that he had created) bounced up and down on the shore line. He took them with him, while he killed a bird with his staff. As he was cooking the bird over the fire, he laid with them sexually and produced day and night. Later on, he invites all of the other gods (of the pantheon of which he created) to a banquet. He gets drunk and passes out. When he wakes up, he has a hangover and sees a figure with "a horn and a tail".

That's not my God. That's not the god I've been worshiping my entire life and it will not ever be. This "god" sounds like an evil man. Even though Elohim created sin (Lucifer/Satan and his followers) he can't be associated with it. God knows no sin. Sin can't be in his presence and his presence can't be in sin. So this "El" can't possibly be Him. (However he tells Abraham that he is EL. CONFUSING!!!!!!!!!!) Pardon my overly emphatic exclamation points. That's how I've been feeling the past month! Oh! And by the way, Aaron crafted a BULL to represent the God of Moses! EL WAS A BULL GOD! Ay yi yi!

Seriously guys, think about it. This "El" of the Canaanite pantheon is EVIL. He commits heinous sins of sexual immorality/drunkenness and has flaws of being unable to control himself. Yet, God (of the Bible) is TOTALLY COOL with BEING REGARDED as EL! He chooses to tell Abraham that he is "El"! Wow!

@ChetSinger

Let's use an example here. Hypothetically, of course.

Before you come into office, there was an evil president. His history has been quite known for many centuries before "your people" come into the country. This evil president (before you) was known to be a drunk who is sexually immoral. Let his name be "President Christopher". Many many years later, his reign of presidency is up. New people inhabit the country now. Out with the old, in with the new. Now you have been elected as president. Your citizens want to call you "President Christopher" and you embrace it. You and President Christopher are supposed to be the same president (historically speaking) 6000 years later. Though, you've never committed evil or shown flaws in your presidency. But history records you saying you are in fact the same as President Christopher, that's what we have on file and that's what we know about you regarding your presidential campaign.

Wouldn't you just say "I'm not President Christopher" in the first place to clear up the confusion and establish a distinguishable difference?

That's my problem with this all in a nutshell. "El" had his attributes and storyline before Abraham encountered God. Yet, God associates with himself and embraces the term of "El" who has notorious poor self control, sinful eyes, sexual immorality, and drunken issues. Could you believe that God of the Bible would even dare say he's associated with this punk? If the term "El" is tainted with an evil past, why would God use this term? Wouldn't he develop a new one or simply choose another term (outside of this pagan pantheon) for you to refer to him as?

 

[SkyWriting]

That's my problem with this all in a nutshell. "El" had his attributes and storyline before Abraham encountered God. Yet, God associates with himself and embraces the term of "El" who has notorious poor self control, sinful eyes, sexual immorality, and drunken issues. Could you believe that God of the Bible would even dare say he's associated with this punk? If the term "El" is tainted with an evil past, why would God use this term? Wouldn't he develop a new one or simply choose another term (outside of this pagan pantheon) for you to refer to him as?

It sounds like you were under the impression that truth was created when the Christian Bible was canonized. This is not the case. Ideas about God had been written in many forms long before god's chosen people cleaned up the facts and produced God's Son Jesus, to speak the real Truth about who God was.

Rumors about who God was and what He is like have existed ever since Adam was kicked out of the Garden.

The Jews produced Jesus, to set the record straight and fix the problem of Sin. Faith in the Father had always been the salvation of man. Jesus died to illustrate the process: one must die to to the physical form and be reborn spiritually. The Truth about man's condition has always been true. Jesus completed God's message that we are the problem and faith in Him is the solution.

There should be nothing surprising about similar stories being circulated long before the Christian scriptures were assembled.

36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You studyc the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5 NIV

 

[ChetSinger]

I'd surely hope our God isn't "El" the Bull God of the Canaanites. He had a wife, Asherah. Then he was "sexually aroused" when 2 women (that he had created) bounced up and down on the shore line. He took them with him, while he killed a bird with his staff. As he was cooking the bird over the fire, he laid with them sexually and produced day and night. Later on, he invites all of the other gods (of the pantheon of which he created) to a banquet. He gets drunk and passes out. When he wakes up, he has a hangover and sees a figure with "a horn and a tail".

That's not my God. That's not the god I've been worshiping my entire life and it will not ever be. This "god" sounds like an evil man. Even though Elohim created sin (Lucifer/Satan and his followers) he can't be associated with it. God knows no sin. Sin can't be in his presence and his presence can't be in sin. So this "El" can't possibly be Him. (However he tells Abraham that he is EL. CONFUSING!!!!!!!!!!) Pardon my overly emphatic exclamation points. That's how I've been feeling the past month! Oh! And by the way, Aaron crafted a BULL to represent the God of Moses! EL WAS A BULL GOD! Ay yi yi!

Seriously guys, think about it. This "El" of the Canaanite pantheon is EVIL. He commits heinous sins of sexual immorality/drunkenness and has flaws of being unable to control himself. Yet, God (of the Bible) is TOTALLY COOL with BEING REGARDED as EL! He chooses to tell Abraham that he is "El"! Wow!

If this helps, in the Hebrew language "El" isn't a name. It means "God". So how are the Israelites to address God except as the word "God" in their language?

That the Ugarits had a corrupted notion of God is obvious. But isn't that to be expected after God abandoned the nations after the dispersion at Babel?

Let's use an example here. Hypothetically, of course.

Before you come into office, there was an evil president. His history has been quite known for many centuries before "your people" come into the country. This evil president (before you) was known to be a drunk who is sexually immoral. Let his name be "President Christopher". Many many years later, his reign of presidency is up. New people inhabit the country now. Out with the old, in with the new. Now you have been elected as president. Your citizens want to call you "President Christopher" and you embrace it. You and President Christopher are supposed to be the same president (historically speaking) 6000 years later. Though, you've never committed evil or shown flaws in your presidency. But history records you saying you are in fact the same as President Christopher, that's what we have on file and that's what we know about you regarding your presidential campaign.

Wouldn't you just say "I'm not President Christopher" in the first place to clear up the confusion and establish a distinguishable difference?

That's my problem with this all in a nutshell. "El" had his attributes and storyline before Abraham encountered God. Yet, God associates with himself and embraces the term of "El" who has notorious poor self control, sinful eyes, sexual immorality, and drunken issues. Could you believe that God of the Bible would even dare say he's associated with this punk? If the term "El" is tainted with an evil past, why would God use this term? Wouldn't he develop a new one or simply choose another term (outside of this pagan pantheon) for you to refer to him as?

Once again, the term "El" simply means "God" to the Israelites. Thus we have terms like "Elyown" meaning "God Most High", and "El Shaddai" meaning "God Almighty". What was God to call himself in the Hebrew language except "God"?

I think I understand your dilemma, so let me propose another example. Let's say Jesus walks the earth doing good, inspires the new testament, and then ascends to heaven. A thousand years later, there are people in Europe murdering others in the name of Jesus, and giving him a bad reputation. When Jesus returns, what is he to call himself? Something other than "Jesus" because some folks have sullied his name?

 

[miamited]

Hi again CT,

You wrote: Once again, I don't regard these texts as truth.

Now, I'm really confused. You self declare that you don't consider the texts as truth but they are causing you doubt. If I tell you that the moon is made of green cheese is that going to cause you to doubt what astronauts who have actually set foot on the moon have said the lunar surface is like? This is why I asked you the question about language. I think it fairly clear that languages often, if not always, have some connection to earlier languages. It is not like the day God called Abraham and began to build His nation of people that they immediately used all new words in some new language. So, if we find the same word, El is just a word that in Hebrew, and obviously several other languages means 'god', should we automatically assume that the 'god' represented by the 'El' in this language is necessarily the same 'god' as represented by the word 'El' in another.

If I go to japan and ask for money I will be given yens. If I go to most European countries and ask for money I will be given euros. If I go to Mexico and ask for money I will be given pesos. If I go down to my corner bank and ask for money I will be given dollars. How can that be? My request in each country was for the same thing - money.

So, whether or not a language uses the same words to describe something doesn't necessarily mean that they are describing the exact same thing. Words are just words and to determine what they represent we must know what the speaker or writer is intending the word to mean. Obviously when the authors of the Ugaritic texts set down the word 'El', they were intending to convey their understanding of a god, but by the continued explanation of that god we know that it is not the same God that really, actually created all things. It is their understanding of a god that they believe really, actually created all things.

Similarly with Yahweh, if you take out for a moment that the Hebrews specifically and exclusively used this word as a name for the one true God and search the etymology of the word, you will find that it literally means, 'I am the one' and there really isn't any logical reason that every 'religion' doesn't have a 'yahweh' as their leader. Now, in more modern times we have set the word 'Yahweh' aside as a purely Jewish/Christian word, but that's us today. There really isn't any evidence that ancient civilizations ever honored our linguistic usage and understandings of words in their days.

But the one true God has made it clear, by setting apart a man by the name of Abram and working strictly and solely through his descendants, that the only truth from any known world civilization that has ever existed that is His truth, was given to us only and exclusively through His people.

I hope that restores your confidence and quells your doubt. Remember, Satan works to cause doubt not by changing the whole story, but just the really important parts. I think it a fairly simple exercise, as one continues to study the Ugaritic texts, that the words used in it, even though they may be similar in written form, do not represent the same meanings as the words used in the Jewish Scriptures. In the days of these writings there really weren't any dictionaries by which one might create any real continuity of meaning between people group languages. So, for one who was raised in Ur and then Moses raised in Egypt, to use words that they were taught by their ancestors to represent the new ideas being given them by the one true God isn't really all that problematic. Again, the crux of the matter is what the word was intended to represent as meaning by the author who wrote it, to the reader who would read it. So, get up and dust yourself off and continue on with full faith and confidence that there is no assurance of truth in anything written in the Ugaritic texts, but full confidence and assurance that the texts handed down through the people that God built and created to be His spokespeople on the earth is the absolute and only confirmed truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Calminian]

...Look, the fact that God said he was "El" "Elyon" and "YHWH" to Abraham is the MAIN reason which shakes my faith. The fact that God (in the Bible) chose to be "related" to or accepted these titles (which are of the polytheistic Canaanite pantheon that predate Judaism) scares me. If he would have told Abraham "I am not El, I am not Elyon, I am not Baal. I am not Jehovah. I am ELOHIM. Those titles you call me are of those heathens which fail to worship me and turn to their ancient pagan ways."

But how do you know the pagans just didn't take over those names and ascribe them to their false God's? I believe Adam wrote the account of the Garden of Eden, the Fall and all the narrative in Genesis up to the birth of Seth. He would have been a contemporary to all these events, and after the birth of Seth we find the signature statement, "This is the book of the account of Adam (Gen. 5:1). In this early narrative, both YHWH and Elohim are used throughout.

Again, if you have the idea that revelation about God didn't start until Moses or even Abraham, you're missing the boat on what Genesis reveals. If Noah took Adam's tablets on the Ark, and in turn wrote down his experiences, then there would have been plenty of time for pagans to corrupt the true meanings of these terms and adopt them for their false gods.

But again, the key is to understand that Genesis is based on documents that predated Moses and was actually written in part by antediluvians. That's going to be hard for secularists to believe, but should be a snap for Bible believers.

 

[SkyWriting]

But how do you know the pagans just didn't take over those names and ascribe them to their false God's? I believe Adam wrote the account of the Garden of Eden, the Fall and all the narrative in Genesis up to the birth of Seth. He would have been a contemporary to all these events, and after the birth of Seth we find the signature statement, "This is the book of the account of Adam (Gen. 5:1). In this early narrative, both YHWH and Elohim used throughout.

Again, if you have the idea that revelation about God didn't start until Moses or even Abraham, you're missing the boat on what Genesis reveals. If Noah took Adam's tablets on the Ark, and in turn wrote down his experiences, then there would have been plenty of time for pagans to corrupt the true meanings of these terms and adopt them for their false gods.

But again, the key is to understand that Genesis is based on documents that predated Moses and was actually written in part by the antediluvians.

If Adam wrote everything down, it would not be surprising to find alternate versions of history that were not as accurate circulating among various distant peoples through time.

 

[miamited]

Hi Cal,

You wrote: But again, the key is to understand that Genesis is based on documents that predated Moses and was actually written in part by antediluvians. That's going to be hard for secularists to believe, but should be a snap for Bible believers.

Just so you know, I'm not a secularist, but absolutely believe the Scriptures and I don't find that a 'snap' to believe. My understanding has always been that that was the purpose of Moses' camping out on the mountain with God for 40 days.

I envision it, and yes it's just my understanding as to how the small details may have gone, but I see those 40 days as having passed something like this:

"Moses, sit down here on this rock. I am your God, your very great God by whom and for whom all that is came to be. This day I am going to relate to you the truth of how it is that you have come to be sitting on this rock speaking with me." Then God, beginning with the moment that He began creating this entire realm of existence in which human flesh lives, began to share, explain and instruct Moses in all that He had done and His interaction with His creation up to that point. He had Moses to either write it down on the mountain or commit it to memory to write at some later date. After all, we do know that Jesus also told his disciples that the Holy Spirit can cause men's minds to remember the things that God wants remembered.

This, for me, serves two purposes. First, it removes any question of error or doubt that all that is recorded in the Scriptures as happening before the life of Moses is still as true as any other part of the Scriptures because it all, absolutely all, came from the same source. The very mouth of God and His Holy Spirit.

Secondly, it supports the understanding that Paul seems to have had that it is all through the writings of the Jews that we have the Scriptures. If I allow that Moses got some of his understanding through source documents earlier than the newly built Jewish people, then it does lend some amount of doubt to Paul's claim. Now, I do understand that it could be reconciled, but it's actually much easier for me to just accept that God began with Moses in creating the written record we call the Scriptures and that every word from the first, "In the beginning..." of Genesis, to the last, "Come, Lord Jesus..." came by way of His people.

That's how I understand that we have come to hold the Scriptures in our hands today and have the confidence that every word is the true utterance of my Father.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Calminian]

...
...Just so you know, I'm not a secularist, but absolutely believe the Scriptures and I don't find that a 'snap' to believe.....

No no, I didn't mean it that way. I realize there are Bible believers that reject the tablet theory. What I meant was, Bible believers won't have the stumbling blocks that secularists would have toward it. For they (secularists) don't believe in the historicity of Adam or Noah or Shem for that matter, let alone the historicity of the Flood. They would reject the idea of antediluvians altogether, let alone very advance and intelligent antediluvians that could write and record history. Your views on the tablet theory are duly noted, and I know it's not because of naturalistic stumbling blocks.

Now I do think you're wrong in your Moses/Sinai theory, for other reasons. As Henry Morris pointed out, it would be a radically different method of revealing historical narratives that appears anywhere else in scripture. And it would seem absurd that the jews of Moses time wouldn't have had any access to previous records, considering Joseph only died 64 years before the birth of Moses. But I'll digress. It may be beneficial to pursue this further as a separate topic, getting more into the structure of Genesis and evidences of his ancient nature.

 

[miamited]

Hi Cal,

You replied: Now I do think you're wrong in your Moses/Sinai theory, for other reasons. As Henry Morris pointed out, it would be a radically different method of revealing historical narratives that appears anywhere else in scripture. And it would seem absurd that the jews of Moses time wouldn't have had any access to previous records, considering Joseph only died 64 years before the birth of Moses.

I will certainly accept that you think I'm wrong. Many do. However, I strongly disagree that it would be a radically different method of revealing historical narratives that appear anywhere else in scriptures. Nearly all of the prophets, and Moses was regarded by the Lord as a prophet, wrote historical and prophetic narratives supposedly straight from the mouth of God. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others wrote of events that had happened among the Israelites and the writing was explained as, "This is what the Lord says...". So, maybe not in keeping with all of the historical narratives found in the Scriptures, but hardly a radically different approach.

I do agree that the Jews in Egypt may have had some written documentation of some historical events, although there really isn't anything by which we might verify or confirm that, but that wouldn't give us any facts that the beginnings of what are referred to as the Scriptures came from such sources. I just have a hard time understanding what else Moses might have been doing, and what God's purpose was for him spending 40 days on a mountain with God alone. Forty days is a long time to spend alone with a God that you had just come to know and as I stated previously, this understanding would confirm that all of the Scriptures were, in fact, God breathed to the people of God. It erases any such claim that might be made that Moses got his information from other sources of which we have no idea who it might have actually come from and whether it was the truth or not.

With my understanding, we cannot entertain such an idea as, "The information came from as yet unknown, but possibly reliable sources of the creation event that may have been recorded correctly or may not have." Keeping any storied account pure for 1,500 years has proven to be a reasonably insurmountable task for men up to this point. My understanding has as it's source the very word of God telling Moses how all things began to be included as the beginning of this realm in the Scriptures, which I believe was, as Paul put it, the chief purpose of God ever even beginning the Jewish nation and Judaism. His claim was that the very most important purpose in being a Jew was that God used them to reveal His oracles to mankind. That they were entrusted with the oracles of God, not Adam or Seth or Noah or any of their clans, but God and God alone is the whole and complete source of the Scriptures.

I certainly respect the men that you quote from, but they are, after all, just men.

Just an alternate view to be considered.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

BTW, Adam wasn't there to witness the six days of creation so it must be assumed that he got that information from God. Why would it then be considered that Moses wouldn't have gotten that same information from God himself. Up to the days of Moses we have no Scriptural evidence that the things of God were written down and from what I glean from Moses' dealings with the Hebrews, by the time of his arrival to lead the people out of Egypt, and even into the days they wandered in the desert, they don't seem to have had a very clear understanding or faith in their leader, God. This encourages me to believe that while there may have been some handed down historical accounts, there certainly wasn't as complete an account as what Moses wrote of the days preceding his life.

I do realize that there is a lot of talk, and some very convincing arguments about supposed different authorships of the Genesis account, but I honestly don't put much stock in it. I believe wholly that the complete Scriptures are all from God, telling His story to us of how we came to be and He started that story with a man by the name of Moses. And it was all recounted for Moses as he sat alone with God for 40 days on a mountain top. I can easily envision Moses coming down off that mountain and sitting in his tent writing and writing all that God had revealed to him as the truth of the beginnings. It completely erases any doubt that P or J or anyone else may or may not have recorded 1500 years of history correctly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted