Unconditional love issue

[Interplanner]

I have heard some teaching on unconditional love in marriage and would like to move it one step forward as a discussion.

This is not about cases of adultery or physical abuse, in which there is certainly reason for separation. There is also the reason given in I Cor 7 about a spouse not being a Christian. However, that instruction is passive: let them leave. A separation is not pursued.

This actually comes from hearing the best presentation I've ever heard on conditional love in marriage; stating that if the spouse is not doing their duty (a marriage is an agreement or contract to a certain extent, and this is usually reflected in the vows), then the affected partner is free to go. The speaker said he's never seen unconditional love actually help a marriage be great.

What he didn't talk about is that the partner crying foul may have moved goalposts or standards. In other words, when I have heard this reason for leaving a marriage, the complaint is that the partner is not currently what the 'plaintiff' wanted. I don't hear the complaint refer back to beliefs they had when married, but of course my experience is limited, not being in a position to hear case after case.

My point is that before a person opens the pandora's box of leaving a marriage for his conditional reason, there should be some very solid work done with a counselor clarifying what was agreed to begin with (and whether a person measures up to that) or what is to be the standard going forward. (Do we seriously think our partner could control everything that happens over two decades?)

When I realized this flaw in what the conditional love speaker was saying, I realized that the 1.5 reasons of Christ and Paul were more divinely-intended than ever. If you (currently) want your spouse to be or do something they have no aptitude for, you need to allow time and forebearance to get there.

 

[Ahermit]

Not many people really know what unconditional love is.
Many Christians can quote, from the bible, what love is, but fall as soon as their expectations/conditions are not met.

If you think about it, all arguments in any relationship, starts from unmet expectations/conditions.

 

[ValleyGal]

I don't believe in unconditional love in marriage. There is a reason. If husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the church, then it absolutely needs to be reciprocated. After all, the church loves Jesus back. Husbands are not supposed to love their wives like Christ loves the world... Jesus dying was while we were still sinners, yes, but his death was for believers - those who will love him back. Therefore, a husband loving his wife is initiated by him (while we were yet sinners), but it is maintained by reciprocity. Marital love has the condition of reciprocity.

 

[sdmsanjose]

BY VG

I don't believe in unconditional love in marriage. …..Marital love has the condition of reciprocity.​

Excellent! I hope the fantasy lovers understand this someday!

 

[Avniel]

I don't believe in unconditional love in marriage. There is a reason. If husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the church, then it absolutely needs to be reciprocated. After all, the church loves Jesus back. Husbands are not supposed to love their wives like Christ loves the world... Jesus dying was while we were still sinners, yes, but his death was for believers - those who will love him back. Therefore, a husband loving his wife is initiated by him (while we were yet sinners), but it is maintained by reciprocity. Marital love has the condition of reciprocity.

I agree with this I think unconditional love is perfect love I don't believe man is capable of loving without conditions. I think we should work towards loving without conditions.

 

[Ahermit]

Unconditional love is possible if you live a life of truth. The truth of each other and self cuts through all the false stories we have about love.
Unconditional love has no need or want for the false-self. This sort of love is born out of humility and meekness for each others truth. A truth born out of honesty.

Conditional love, or expecting love from someone, is actually saying, "I need love to feel loved."
A person who loves unconditionally is fully aware that love is within them, and do not need to be loved to feel okay/loved.

Relationships experiencing unconditional love has more relating with each other than one based on conditional love. The later is based on relating to self satisfaction.
Union and oneness happens while relating to the other, and not to self. It is the ego/false-self that creates conditions out of fear of not being/feeling validated.
Unconditional love in a marriage always supports the other person. Always loves the other person. And when they do meet out of adoration and devotion, it is always in oneness.

If people do not understand this, it is because they come from the belief that love is something to be gained from outside of themselves. They believe they are lacking in love and expect others to give it to them. Or that by loving another bleeds them from their own love, and therefore think it is owed to them. See how ridiculous this is all sounding?

The truth is, the misconception of love has caused people to manipulate others to feed them with love. And when they do experience being loved, it is somehow tainted, because deep down they now it was coerced out of the other person and therefore not unconditional. And if they actually did experience unconditional love, they would reject it, because they would feel unworthy. All this misunderstanding comes from a belief that love is to be expected so as to feel okay. Therefore it is conditional.

 

[Avniel]

Unconditional love is possible if you live a life of truth. The truth of each other and self cuts through all the false stories we have about love.
Unconditional love has no need or want for the false-self. This sort of love is born out of humility and meekness for each others truth. A truth born out of honesty.

Conditional love, or expecting love from someone, is actually saying, "I need love to feel loved."
A person who loves unconditionally is fully aware that love is within them, and do not need to be loved to feel okay/loved.

Relationships experiencing unconditional love has more relating with each other than one based on conditional love. The later is based on relating to self satisfaction.
Union and oneness happens while relating to the other, and not to self. It is the ego/false-self that creates conditions out of fear of not being/feeling validated.
Unconditional love in a marriage always supports the other person. Always loves the other person. And when they do meet out of adoration and devotion, it is always in oneness.

If people do not understand this, it is because they come from the belief that love is something to be gained from outside of themselves. They believe they are lacking in love and expect others to give it to them. Or that by loving another bleeds them from their own love, and therefore think it is owed to them. See how ridiculous this is all sounding?

The truth is, the misconception of love has caused people to manipulate others to feed them with love. And when they do experience being loved, it is somehow tainted, because deep down they now it was coerced out of the other person and therefore not unconditional. And if they actually did experience unconditional love, they would reject it, because they would feel unworthy. All this misunderstanding comes from a belief that love is to be expected so as to feel okay. Therefore it is conditional.

The person that love unconditionally is God. You can love to get in return that is try but love in a relationship that's healthy is mutual. Human beings have limits to what they will allow a person to do.

Earlier someone said accept cheating and.....that's not unconditional then.

 

[Ahermit]

The person that love unconditionally is God. You can love to get in return that is try but love in a relationship that's healthy is mutual. Human beings have limits to what they will allow a person to do.

Earlier someone said accept cheating and.....that's not unconditional then.

In post #6, I quoted "Unconditional love is possible if you live a life of truth. The truth of each other and self cuts through all the false stories we have about love."
This truth about each other is a realization that each person is a spiritual being. That being is who they REALLY are, and not some worldly story we had about them.
From this realization comes the truth that nobody has the right to claim that spiritual being for their self. Conditional love, and expectations of another person, is a form of 'claiming'.

The primary concern for the person, we love unconditionally, is their spiritual growth. In other words, we support their goal to become a person of truth.
Part of unconditional love is to support their spiritual growth. However, this does not mean to support the other person's conditions to be placed on us.
From an unconditional point of view, any conditions expected, or placed, is seen as evil. Do we then allow evil to manipulate us? Of course not. The worst evil can do is violate the body, but not the spirit of a person of truth. Why, because the person of truth knows who they really are, a spiritual being. They know that their body is not who they are, though they have one. Much like a car, we are the driver, and not the car. If the other knows who you really are, they will not do anything to harm us (driver) or our body (car).

 

[Avniel]

In post #6, I quoted "Unconditional love is possible if you live a life of truth. The truth of each other and self cuts through all the false stories we have about love."
This truth about each other is a realization that each person is a spiritual being. That being is who they REALLY are, and not some worldly story we had about them.
From this realization comes the truth that nobody has the right to claim that spiritual being for their self. Conditional love, and expectations of another person, is a form of 'claiming'.

The primary concern for the person, we love unconditionally, is their spiritual growth. In other words, we support their goal to become a person of truth.
Part of unconditional love is to support their spiritual growth. However, this does not mean to support the other person's conditions to be placed on us.
From an unconditional point of view, any conditions expected, or placed, is seen as evil. Do we then allow evil to manipulate us? Of course not. The worst evil can do is violate the body, but not the spirit of a person of truth. Why, because the person of truth knows who they really are, a spiritual being. They know that their body is not who they are, though they have one. Much like a car, we are the driver, and not the car. If the other knows who you really are, they will not do anything to harm us (driver) or our body (car).

Noooooooooooooo


God loves unconditional we do not that is a perfect love.

Excluding cheating and physical abuse is putting conditions on the relationship. You can't say love is unconditional minus these conditions.

 

[LinkH]

What does unconditional love have to do with allowing divorce? Plenty of people stay together without having unconditional love? There are cultures that don't emphasize love as much as our own does in relation to marriage, and some married couples aren't Christians either and don't believe the same things about love and marriage that Christians do (or are supposed to.)

But as Christians, if we don't love each other, we need to repent, we don't need to divorce.

The idea that if you agree on certain things before you marry and if the other person doesn't meet them, you divorce, isn't a Biblical concept of marriage. I mean, if you say we have been married 15 years, and we don't have a house and we haven't been to Rome on vacation, or you haven't advanced in your career-- and we both planned on that before marriage, so I'm outta' hear-- that's not the way marriage is supposed to be.

I don't see how anyone can enjoy the safety, peace, and security of a loving marriage if whether the marriage is going to continue is a question always hanging over your head.

 

[Ahermit]

Noooooooooooooo

God loves unconditional we do not that is a perfect love.

Excluding cheating and physical abuse is putting conditions on the relationship. You can't say love is unconditional minus these conditions.

I am sorry that I am either misread or not understood.
Cheating is a word that derives from unmet expectations/conditions. If our partner wishes to be with someone else, then that is their choice.
Physical abuse derives from fear of not being loved. If our partner wishes to abuse and possibly murder us, then to respect our own God given life is to avoid it if possible. But if we cannot avoid it, then we accept that the abuser has lost the plot and that, God willing, our unconditional love will keep us free from fear.

As a counsellor, I have seen many physically abused women return to their abusers only to get abused and hospitalized again, and again. Luckily none of my clients have died by abuse, but I know that some do. However, everyone of my clients believed that the abuse was out of love and for disciplinary correction. That the abuse was proof that their partner cared enough to correct them. This has nothing to do with unconditional love. But of an extreme and twisted conditional love. Their martyrdom to return to the abuser was equally twisted as unconditional love.

In such cases, to willfully return, without counsel/discussion, and subject oneself to physical harm is a prelude to a form of martyrdom without a cause, or suicide.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't believe in unconditional love in marriage. There is a reason. If husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the church, then it absolutely needs to be reciprocated. After all, the church loves Jesus back. Husbands are not supposed to love their wives like Christ loves the world... Jesus dying was while we were still sinners, yes, but his death was for believers - those who will love him back. Therefore, a husband loving his wife is initiated by him (while we were yet sinners), but it is maintained by reciprocity. Marital love has the condition of reciprocity.

VG - I would suggest you get a copy of C.S. Lewis' book "The Four Loves" which describe in detail the 4 words in Koine Greek for "love." Only one is "unconditional" which is Agape. The other 3 all are recriprical (phileo, storge, eros) and you are looking at those instead of Agape.

 

[ValleyGal]

Dave, I do know about the various types of love. I think the important piece here is to tease apart which love belongs where. We love our spouse with a combination of eros, phileo, agape. If we love our spouse with agape, then that is not marital love, nor should it be. After all, we can leave an abusive marriage and still have agape love for our ex-spouse. We can leave a non-reciprocal marriage and still have agape for them.

Additionally, although I have never read "The Four Loves", I cannot say I agree that agape is actually "unconditional." I believe it is nothing more than God's absolute (pure) love for mankind, and that Avniel is right - there is no way humans are possibly capable of even coming close. The Bible describes it this way: "God loved us while we were still sinners." That does not mean it is unconditional. In fact, it is in the very desperate hope that "all people will be saved and come to knowledge of the truth." At that point, there absolutely is hope and expectation put on the love. Anyway, his death was for all mankind. In relationship - the kind that Jesus has with the church - there must be reciprocation. You cannot have a relationship with someone if there is no reciprocation. Even Jesus is not in relationship with the church without it. That is the expectation of marital love: men are called to love their wife like Jesus loves the church. It started with his dying while we were yet sinners. But look at the other half of marital love: "We love because he first loved us." Iow, the expectation is that one of us initiates and the other responds. It is absolutely wrong for any spouse in any marriage or anyone hoping to marry some day to expect or even hope that they are loved with the kind of love that only God can give. What a huge burden to place onto someone - and what a huge burden to carry into a marriage. If anyone here expects that they can love their spouse like God loves the church, they are deluding themselves.

 

[Avniel]

God so loved the word He sacrificed his son for our sins.

I love my wife but she can't have my daughter's life to atone for her wrong doing. I don't love anyone that much not even myself.

 

[Dave-W]

I cannot say I agree that agape is actually "unconditional." I believe it is nothing more than God's absolute (pure) love for mankind, and that Avniel is right - there is no way humans are possibly capable of even coming close.

Then you say Our Lord was asking the impossible when HE said this:
John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

 

[Dave-W]

We love our spouse with a combination of eros, phileo, agape. If we love our spouse with agape, then that is not marital love, nor should it be. After all, we can leave an abusive marriage and still have agape love for our ex-spouse. We can leave a non-reciprocal marriage and still have agape for them.

I would say that we grow into Storge as well. (a sense of belonging together). I would say proper marital love includes all 4. Of course only the agape part is unconditional. But that is the foundation for the other 3. Since it IS unconditional, it can be a stable foundation which can help make the others unconditional (only to a degree) as well.

 

[Avniel]

I would say that we grow into Storge as well. (a sense of belonging together). I would say proper marital love includes all 4. Of course only the agape part is unconditional. But that is the foundation for the other 3. Since it IS unconditional, it can be a stable foundation which can help make the others unconditional (only to a degree) as well.

God is love and God is the foundation of marriage that doesn't change the fact that agape love is a sacrificial love that has no ends if you can't sacrifice your child for your spouses sins you can't love unconditionally

 

[ValleyGal]

Jesus was saying it - and he said it to his friends. He had not yet gone to the cross. How did he love his friends? He cared for them, provided for them when they were in need, he spent time with them, worked with them, prayed with them, etc. Just as many of us do with our friends. Then agape love drove him to the cross, and honestly, I do not believe any of us alive can fully understand what that love is. Even a small glimpse of understanding is so overwhelming that it cannot be put into words. No, he does not expect us to have agape love for anyone; he knows we are unable.

But that does not stop his expectation that we grow into his love, mature in it and pursue it. But it is fully impossible to achieve.

 

[Dave-W]

Your post denies the power of the Holy Spirit and His Grace in us. It is as you say - impossible in our selves; but the Holy Spirit can love like that thru us NOW.

 

[ValleyGal]

I am a realist. I do not deny the power of the Spirit. I deny our power to allow the Spirit to fully live in us. It is a process. Additionally, I understand God's loving nature differently than you. I do not think it is unconditional. God would not have sent his son to die for us if no one ever through all history would come to him. He send Jesus to die knowing that Jesus' death would save some... so God's condition is that some (but desiring all) would come to knowledge of him and be reconciled to him through Christ. I do not believe in unconditional love because even God's sacrificial love had an expected outcome from us (the church).