Unconditional Election - Please Help

PrettyboyAndy

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You don't have to mane what you believe do you. I see things about Calvinism that I totally agree with, and I do not agree with some things too. I do not get excited about election, I keep nominating people for Jesus to save and they keep getting elected! Neither side agrees with this. However this can become a distraction, and before you know it people you once thought were brother and sisters now they are distant because they are on the wrong side. Better keep in mind we are called to love one another.

Dear Farout,

I don't consider myself a theologian in any sence, but I do love the Word, and enjoy doing studies. I think I have a decent grasp for being saved for 6 years now. I would like to understand how God works, so I can better understand scripture and God.

I agree this can be a distraction to believers, which is why now I try to make sure there is love in everything I do/Say, because the greatest commandment is love.

At the same time, I enjoy doing these theological studies, it helps me grow, look up scripture, and realize how grateful I am to be saved. Iron sharpens Iron, Ultimate goal is to be conformed to the image of Christ.
 
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twin1954

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You don't have to mane what you believe do you. I see things about Calvinism that I totally agree with, and I do not agree with some things too. I do not get excited about election, I keep nominating people for Jesus to save and they keep getting elected! Neither side agrees with this. However this can become a distraction, and before you know it people you once thought were brother and sisters now they are distant because they are on the wrong side. Better keep in mind we are called to love one another.
How can the truth of God ever be a distraction? We preach to all sinners and proclaim the sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord without distinction. All that truly believe are saved because they are of the elect and all who walk away desiring their sin we continue to preach to. I preach because I want all to know the Lord and His salvation. I recognize that only the elect will be born of God and believe by the Gospel but that in no way keeps me from preaching to all.
 
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Job8

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Sorry but you mistake foreknowledge for foresight. That is not what the Scriptures teach.
Since you are denying what is actually in Scripture, let's post it for everyone (1 Pet 1:1,2):
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Election is not according to foresight for if it was then salvation would be because God saw something in you that He didn't see in others.
OMNISCIENCE = HINDSIGHT + FORESIGHT + FOREKNOWLEDGE
That would make salvation depend on man according to something God saw Him do or in Him and that is works salvation pure and simple.
How can believing be works? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31).
I can give you many passages of Scripture if you so desire that do teach unconditional electing love just say the word. Of course you might be overwhelmed by the many passages.
One passage should suffice to prove that you are mistaken (John 3:14-17)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
So I must as you a simple question: What is it that makes the difference between you as a saved person and one who isn't?
The gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38): Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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twin1954

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Since you are denying what is actually in Scripture, let's post it for everyone (1 Pet 1:1,2):
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
I guess that you don't realize that the same word is translated foreordained in verse 20:
(1Pe 1:19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

(1Pe 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The same word in the Greek is in verse 2 as foreknowledge is translated in verse 20 as foreordained. Also you may not realize that the Greek word for foresight is a totally different word.

OMNISCIENCE = HINDSIGHT + FORESIGHT + FOREKNOWLEDGE
Omniscience = foreordination= prescience=the purpose of God. God foresees because He has foreordained.

How can believing be works? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31).
It isn't unless you do so by an act of your own. If you believe it is because God has already given you life and faith in Christ. Eph. 21:1 Can a man who is dead in spirit do anything? Can a dead man believe or exercise faith? Of course not. Man must be born from above in order to believe. Again you get the cart before the horse. Life must come before faith. Faith is the result of life not the other way around.

One passage should suffice to prove that you are mistaken (John 3:14-17)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Why would someone who believes in sovereign electing love have a problem with this passage? You read into the passage that which is not there. You take the word world to mean everybody when it is clear from many other places in the Scriptures it doesn't. Do I need to give you a lesson in the use of words in the Scriptures? I suspect that you have known before that the word rarely, if ever, means all men without exception.

The gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38):
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So then why is the gift of the Spirit given to some and not others? If the difference is that the Spirit is given to some and not others is that not election?
 
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Job8

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I guess that you don't realize that the same word is translated foreordained in verse 20: (1Pe 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
That is NOT the same word. The word in 1 Pet 1:2 is prognosis.
Strong's Concordance 4268
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Short Definition: foreknowledge
Definition: foreknowledge, previous determination.


The word in 1 Pet 1:20 is proginosko, but it actually confirms what I have pointed out.
Strong's Concordance 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Short Definition: I know beforehand
Definition: I know beforehand, foreknow.


To know beforehand is perfectly in accordance with the fact that God elects those to perfection whom He knows beforehand will believe and be saved. GOD DOES NOT PREDESTINE SOME FOR HEAVEN AND OTHERS FOR HELL. That is false doctrine, since it contradicts Scripture.
 
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Leevo

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Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.


Might I ask, if you have considered Arminian theology? Most of the time people don't actually know what it actually teaches and reject it based on preconceived ideas. I find it fits better with scripture than Calvinism in my opinions. You don't run into these sorts of problems with it...

I am also surprised that you are having more trouble with this than the doctrine of limited atonement...
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Might I ask, if you have considered Arminian theology? Most of the time people don't actually know what it actually teaches and reject it based on preconceived ideas. I find it fits better with scripture than Calvinism in my opinions. You don't run into these sorts of problems with it...

I am also surprised that you are having more trouble with this than the doctrine of limited atonement...

Hey Levvo, Yes I have considered it many times.

I think Limited Atonement is easier for me to understand, because if Jesus died for everyone, then everyone's sins would be paid for, so that cant be correct. Jesus died for a select/elect. So the people he died for either
a) Are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God regenerating them, those he regenerated he paid for their sins. Calvinist view
b) Like Job8 is pointing out above, People are born sinners, but are able to accept Christ, and once they do, they are born again, and receive the Holy Spirit. God goes back in time to see who would accept him, and he dies for those people who accept him. Arminian View

So I think Limited atonement works either way Arminian or Calvinist, And I am actually Armenian , so just by the titles Arminian is seems nice!

I do know that Jonah 2:9 - Salvation is from the Lord.
 
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twin1954

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That is NOT the same word. The word in 1 Pet 1:2 is prognosis.
Strong's Concordance 4268
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Short Definition: foreknowledge
Definition: foreknowledge, previous determination.


The word in 1 Pet 1:20 is proginosko, but it actually confirms what I have pointed out.
Strong's Concordance 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Short Definition: I know beforehand
Definition: I know beforehand, foreknow.


To know beforehand is perfectly in accordance with the fact that God elects those to perfection whom He knows beforehand will believe and be saved. GOD DOES NOT PREDESTINE SOME FOR HEAVEN AND OTHERS FOR HELL. That is false doctrine, since it contradicts Scripture.
Just for your information they are both from the same root word and have the same root meaning. One is a noun and would have a different ending than the other which is a verb. While I like Strong's definitions, he was a Calvinist btw, they aren't the best or most dependable.

Also the word prognosis in verse 2 is the noun form of foreordain and therefore election, according to Peter, is by foreordination. Also you must know that there is a whole different Greek word for foresee: proorao and proeidon.
 
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Job8

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Just for your information they are both from the same root word and have the same root meaning.
None of this matters. Foreknowledge is knowing beforehand. Since God knows absolutely everything, He sees those who will receive Christ as Lord and Saviour, and He predestines them "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8;29). That is why we have this passage (1 John 3:1-3 KJV): Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Christians are required to purify themselves now (sanctification) so that ultimately when we see Christ at the Rapture we shall be perfected (body, soul, and spirit). That is the only way that we can fulfil God's eternal plan for the Church (Eph 1:3-6): Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

What Scripture is revealing here is that God's children were chosen in Christ to be (a) holy, (b) without blame, (c)[remaining] before Him in love, and (d) made heirs through "adoption" [which means that children born of God inherit what belongs to their Father]. This is the purpose of predestination, so that our perfection will be "to the praise of the glory of His grace". God did not save us simply to be rescued from Hell. He saved us to resemble Christ, which goes back to Genesis 1:26,27.

You will note that Scripture does not say "having predestinated us to be saved by grace", but instead "unto the adoption of children". Human adoption and Divine adoption are two different things. Humans adopt the children of other parents. God "adopts" His own children by making every child of God an heir. Only firstborn children generally inherited their father's possessions in Scripture. But God manifests His grace by making all of us heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. As stated in Vine's Expository Dictionary:
God does not "adopt" believers as children; they are begotten as such by His Holy Spirit through faith. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. In Rom. 8:23 the "adoption" of the believer is set forth as still future, as it there includes the redemption of the body, when the living will be changed and those who have fallen asleep will be raised.
 
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twin1954

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None of this matters. Foreknowledge is knowing beforehand.
Wrong! Show me one time that the word is used in connection with things. I challenge you to do so. The word foreknow or foreknowledge is always in connection with people never with what will happen or what He sees. God foreknows people. The word has the connotation, as it used in Scripture, of having an intimate relationship with another person. Adam knew his wife Eve and they became one flesh. In almost every instance in the Bible where the word know is used of God it is in connection to a person and speaks of a relationship with them.
Since God knows absolutely everything, He sees those who will receive Christ as Lord and Saviour, and He predestines them "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8;29).
Wrong again. You do err not knowing the Scriptures. Rom. 8:28-32 speaks of the elect being predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ but it isn't speaking of our sanctification it is speaking of what we are in Christ and then the rest of the passage sets the order of God's conforming us to the image of Christ in sovereign grace. Moreover you do not grasp that predestination is again always connected to the destiny of men never the ordering of things. God doesn't predestine things He predestinates people. Check out the word as it is used in the Scriptures for yourself.
That is why we have this passage (1 John 3:1-3 KJV): Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Read on:
(1Jn 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

(1Jn 3:5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
When John says that in Him is no sin he certainly isn't talking about Christ not having sin but we who are in Him and called the sons of God.

John also tells us very plainly in chapter 4 verse 17 that we are exactly as Christ in this world:
(1Jn 4:17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.



Christians are required to purify themselves now (sanctification) so that ultimately when we see Christ at the Rapture we shall be perfected (body, soul, and spirit).
How pure are you? Foolish thought that you can do anything that isn't mixed with sin. Sanctification isn't a process by which we become pure, it is an act of God in the new birth that makes us a new creation not a reformation of the old.
(Eph 4:22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

(Eph 4:23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

(Eph 4:24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


That is the only way that we can fulfil God's eternal plan for the Church
You put an awful lot of work in the hands of men don't you? We do not fulfill God's purpose, for the Scriptures never speak of God having a plan but a purpose, God does it in us and for us. If He left it up to us we would mess it up for sure. Every time man ever tried to lay his hand to the work of God he defiled and destroyed it. Again you err not knowing the Scriptures.
(Eph 1:3-6):
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

What Scripture is revealing here is that God's children were chosen in Christ to be (a) holy, (b) without blame, (c)[remaining] before Him in love, and (d) made heirs through "adoption" [which means that children born of God inherit what belongs to their Father]. This is the purpose of predestination, so that our perfection will be "to the praise of the glory of His grace". God did not save us simply to be rescued from Hell. He saved us to resemble Christ, which goes back to Genesis 1:26,27.
Again you need to read on:
(Eph 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



(Eph 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


(Eph 1:8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


(Eph 1:9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


(Eph 1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


You seem to want to take passages out of their context in order to use them as a pretext to serve your own theology. Why not make your theology conform to the Scriptures instead? Now you might notice that verse 11 clearly says that believers are predestinated according to the purpose of God who works all things after the counsel of His own will. It certainly doesn't say that He works by foreseeing what man will do or that He waits on man to do anything such as purify himself until he is ripe for Heaven. Nor does it say that He works as best He can to accomplish His plan. No God is a God of purpose and that purpose is to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy in and through Christ and His bride, the elect of God His church. Ex. 33:18-19. Look up the word purpose or purposed and see what God says about His purpose. You might be humbled to find out that God doesn't need or depend on you for anything.

You will note that Scripture does not say "having predestinated us to be saved by grace", but instead "unto the adoption of children".
No what it says is that we were chosen in Christ to be holy and without blame before Him and in love He predestinated us unto the adoption of children according to the good pleasure of His will. He redeemed us and we are not just servants in His household but He has adopted us as His children.
Human adoption and Divine adoption are two different things. Humans adopt the children of other parents. God "adopts" His own children by making every child of God an heir. Only firstborn children generally inherited their father's possessions in Scripture. But God manifests His grace by making all of us heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. As stated in Vine's Expository Dictionary:
We are heirs and joint heirs with Christ because we are in Him. Vine was somewhat good at defining Greek words but terrible in his theology. While all mankind is God's by creation not all are a part of His intimate family or sons. God adopts us a part of His intimate family as His children and we are joint heirs with Christ, who is the firstborn, because it pleased Him to give us all that He has earned.
 
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Leevo

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Hey Levvo, Yes I have considered it many times.

I think Limited Atonement is easier for me to understand, because if Jesus died for everyone, then everyone's sins would be paid for, so that cant be correct. Jesus died for a select/elect. So the people he died for either
a) Are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God regenerating them, those he regenerated he paid for their sins. Calvinist view
b) Like Job8 is pointing out above, People are born sinners, but are able to accept Christ, and once they do, they are born again, and receive the Holy Spirit. God goes back in time to see who would accept him, and he dies for those people who accept him. Arminian View

So I think Limited atonement works either way Arminian or Calvinist, And I am actually Armenian , so just by the titles Arminian is seems nice!

I do know that Jonah 2:9 - Salvation is from the Lord.


Great! I would point out a misunderstanding there in point b) though... God doesn't go back in time to see who accepts him, rather he knew from the foundation of the world and predestined those he "foreknew." Also for the Arminian view of Unlimited Atonement, Christ did die for everyone's sins but only those who come to Him may receive the effects of it. It does not automatically wipe their sins away...

Was just curious though, thanks!
 
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Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.
Jesus healing people by their faith
You are right, faith is a condition, yet that condition is granted by God.
Unconditional election
God is free in His election of any and all sinners. It depends not on we who will or run, but on God who has mercy. If God has mercy on us, then we will will and we will run!
God likened unto a King
You are right. God's decree is what matters regardless of our agreement with it. Like it or not, God appointed Adam to be the representative of mankind. His disobedience is ours; his resulting punishment is ours. "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." Thankfully the Lord gives again and we few are granted unmerited eternal life!
Adam and Eve/Satan
The Puritans dubbed Satan as "God's ape on a chain."
 
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corinth77777

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Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.
I'm no scholar on this....but why not if one is an unbeliever...God calls him by saying do you know Jesus....and belief in Jesus as the son of God is the beginning of our lives.......and now that you are in the beginning and the end...God predestined you because you are in the one that has completed the work....so maybe..being called in Christ to Live holy is different from being called as a nonbeliever......so when you are in Christ...as if we are sons the image we transform to be...is like him.....so why can't God foreknow you when he has seen the beginning and end of our lives as those in The one who was foreknown?
 
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shakewell

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Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.
Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.

You might want to reconsider faith being "a gift". Faith can be seen as a gift in the sense that it's part of every human being's created make-up, saved & unsaved alike. It's the object of the faith that determines whether a person is saved or not. When I was little I had faith that I could beat up a wolf (like Tarzan). I would have gotten killed because my faith was in the wrong object (my ability). But when I place that same faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the work He did for me on the cross, God promises me eternal life.

A person's faith in the correct object comes about by that person hearing the word of God making that object known (Rom. 10:17). God's word shows itself faith-worthy and can be perceived as such by a person who's dead in their trespasses and sins. Upon conviction (not regeneration) of the Holy Spirit that person can choose to believe in Jesus for salvation while still unsaved.

The "it" of "it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8) can be interpreted as referring to salvation; it doesn't have to refer to "faith".

It had been "given" to the saints at Philippi "to believe" (Phi. 1:29). But as with any gift, it could have been refused before they became saints.
 
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Job8

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Maybe many are called to accept Jesus but few are chosen because...those who come to him have to come in faith. And so those elected were those that met his requirement?
Elected for what? That's the issue. Since the invitation to receive the gift of eternal life is to anyone and everyone, it cannot be "elected unto eternal life". Please note carefully (Rev 22:17): And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If we fail to apply every relevant Scripture to every doctrine, we will go into error. Election cannot possible be for some to take the water of life freely, since anyone and everyone is invited. And this truth is repeated over and over again in Scripture (Isa 55:1-3): Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Jesus said (John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. How could Christ say this, and then not give an open invitation to receive eternal life?
 
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corinth77777

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I stick by what I SAID..BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF ARE EVERY SCRIPTURES YOU MENTION TALKING ABOUT ELECTION?....OR THE PROCESS of GETTING ELECTED.....ALL MEN ARE SAID TO BE DRAWN...BECAUSE THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED UNDER ALL THE HEAVENS...BUT NOT EVERYONE ACCEPTS THE CALL........NOW THOSE WHO ACCEPT THE CALL TO ME...WOULD BE THOSE ELECTED...FOR THE REQUIREMENT IS FAITH...NOW GOD THEN WOULD ELECT. THOSE THAT MET THE REQUIREMENT...FAITH.....FROM FAITH TO FAITH
 
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twin1954

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Elected for what? That's the issue. Since the invitation to receive the gift of eternal life is to anyone and everyone, it cannot be "elected unto eternal life". Please note carefully (Rev 22:17): And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Amen! Whosever will is free to come but the problem is that it doesn't say whosoever will not. Election keeps out no one who wants in. What you don't seem to grasp is that man will not come to Christ that he might have life. John 5:40 Man's nature is to love darkness rather than light and he not only cannot come to Christ but he will not. The natural man doesn't think he needs Christ. That is why the Lord Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be born again before you can even see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

If we fail to apply every relevant Scripture to every doctrine, we will go into error. Election cannot possible be for some to take the water of life freely, since anyone and everyone is invited. And this truth is repeated over and over again in Scripture (Isa 55:1-3): Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
You might notice that these are not invitations but commands from the King. As I said before you don't know what electing love is all about. Electing love ensures that some do come and drink it never keeps out anyone who wants it. That is your false straw man.

Jesus said (John 12:32)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. How could Christ say this, and then not give an open invitation to receive eternal life?
You notice that the word men is in italics don't you? Do you know why? It is because the word isn't in the original and was added by the translators. Now read the passage without the italicized word. The Gospel calls all to believe because unbelief is insanity. Yet man is naturally insane when it comes to his sin and salvation in Christ. God commands all men everywhere to repent because it is only reasonable that they do but they will not. That is why God's electing love works to ensure that some actually hear the Gospel with their hearts and believe. Without God's electing love none would come.
 
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corinth77777

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Not everying who is DRAWN by hearing the gospel is elected...in my opininion.

If the requirement for election
Or
Example: if the requirement for joining a club is cutting or having no hair.....many can hear about the club from the loud speaker.... But the ones chosen will be those who cut their hair......as many hear the gospel but the ones elected are those who have faith...that considering I'm using ELECT in it's correct context...I will look up some scripture..now faith is spiritual and it's impossible to please God without faith...Does God see anything that is not in faith when doing his choosing?...good question.. I bet not...if spiritual thing are eternal..then they their beginning and end are in Christ the eternal..so I believe God knew who would be in Christ because Jesus is an eternal aspect of God..therefore the ELECT are those in Christ.
 
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