U.S. history textbooks could soon be flavored heavily with Texas conservatism

Marek

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And these are all laudable goals for higher education. But public education speaks to what we need out of the entire citizenry, not just the more enlightened ones. To meet those needs, public education must be Anglo-centric to some degree. You have to understand your own country first, before "comparative" knowledge has any meaning whatsoever.

I guess that's where our opinions differ. From my experience, most americans have a working knowledge of our system. I'm far more disgusted with their complete ignorance of other cultures and political systems than their lack of detailed knowledge of our own. I agree that education in the United States must be somewhat anglo-centric, but we should not focus on that while excluding everything else.

I think the goals that I suggested need to be fostered at a young age if we want them to be effective. Issues like an in-depth understanding of political philosophy can wait for higher education.
 
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citizenthom

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I think the goals that I suggested need to be fostered at a young age if we want them to be effective. Issues like an in-depth understanding of political philosophy can wait for higher education.

Unless we limit the franchise to people who participate in higher education, that's a dangerous premise.
 
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katautumn

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Okay, I don't have time to touch on everything else. Not to mention we're not going to reach an agreement on whether or not America is imperialistic, so it's almost not even worth debating. Like a dog chasing its tail in circles, really. I did, however, I want to discuss the Japanese internment camp issue a bit.

laconicstudent said:
So that justifies emulating the Nazis, does it? By that logic, the concentration camps were justified seeing as the Third Reich would have been concerned about Jewish terrorism.

I can't believe you really just invoked Godwin's Law. I know you're nearly a decade my junior and when you're under the age of 25 it's really nifty to draw Nazi Germany analogies to illustrate your disdain for something, but please try and keep things in perspective. The internment camps didn't come anywhere close to the holocaust. Auschwitz made the Japanese internment camps look like a Holiday Inn. Oh, and the one crucial difference is that we only detained them there and sometimes let them leave the camp for various reasons. They were fed, provided medical care, given a place to stay. Was it ideal? No. Was it fair? No. Were we shaving their heads, branding them and then sending them into experimentation labs to have vacuums suck their eyes out or expose them to chemical burns only to gas them to death if they survived such torture? No.

The worst aspect of the interment camps was the tragic loss of homes and businesses. That was the difficult part. Going back to nothing. Those imprisoned during the Nazi regime didn't have to worry about that. Most of them died.

A conclusion for which there was absolutely no evidence, or even a hint.

Yes and did we not issue a statement of apology and reparations? Under president Reagan, no less?

Please tell me you are joking. Just because we acknowledge that we have been pretty awful and aren't the salt of the earth doesn't mean we are "america-hating".

You're denying that there are American citizens who hate this country? In my opinion if someone has nothing but negative things to say about their nation's founding and present-day dealings then they hate their country.

And what is wrong with being a globalist or a communist anyways? You seem to be banking on that the readers of this thread will have a knee-jerk reaction and have the assumption that Communism and Globalism is somehow un-American or un-Christian.

They are un-American concepts. How is it American to give up our sovereignty and let that failure called the United Nations have dominion over us? And please let me know how Communism is working out for Cuba and China. I implore you - go live there sometime and see if America should emulate that sort of a system.
 
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Mr. Ripley

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I guess that's where our opinions differ. From my experience, most americans have a working knowledge of our system. I'm far more disgusted with their complete ignorance of other cultures and political systems than their lack of detailed knowledge of our own. I agree that education in the United States must be somewhat anglo-centric, but we should not focus on that while excluding everything else.

I think the goals that I suggested need to be fostered at a young age if we want them to be effective. Issues like an in-depth understanding of political philosophy can wait for higher education.
From my experience Americans don't know anything about their government's history or the foundations of political thought, except for the catchphrases they hear on the news.

As for anglo-centrism, I think it's more important to teach children how to be good American citizens than how to vote in China. That's kind of the whole point of education, isn't it? Creating educated citizens that can vote based on some working knowledge of how our system of government even works?
 
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ArnautDaniel

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America is the nearest nation on Earth to being anything like a cross-section of humanity.

People from everywhere are here. And, as I think it is the mixing in what is best from many cultures that creates a great new culture, this is what I think genuinely makes America great.

Why would we not want to learn about other cultures, and then appropriate whatever is better in them than what we presently have in our own?

Mix foods, mix music, mix art, philosophies and other ideas.

I have no problem with conservatism working to keep what is good in culture, it is when it tries to keep what is bad in the face of what is better....

The schools should promote knowledge of world cultures precisely to make America greater than it is.
 
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Marek

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Unless we limit the franchise to people who participate in higher education, that's a dangerous premise.

The majority of voters in the United States right now do not have an in-depth knowledge of political philosophy. Are you suggesting that we limit their voting rights until they are properly educated?
 
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Mr. Ripley

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How'd you surmise that? Limiting an overview of political philosophy to colleges and universities is pretty silly as plenty of people don't go to college or university. Whether they are college-educated or not, they should have a working knowledge of politics.
 
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Marek

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How'd you surmise that? Limiting an overview of political philosophy to colleges and universities is pretty silly as plenty of people don't go to college or university. Whether they are college-educated or not, they should have a working knowledge of politics.

I agree. They should also have a working knowledge of various cultures around the world and global politics. One shouldn't be excluded for the other. Schools have to do the best they can with the time and resources they have. I was merely suggesting that in-depth political philosophy education might not be the best route for many students.
 
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citizenthom

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The majority of voters in the United States right now do not have an in-depth knowledge of political philosophy. Are you suggesting that we limit their voting rights until they are properly educated?

That would be punishing those people for the government's past failures. What I'm saying is that we should not commit the same offense--leaving people civilly ignorant--against future generations.
 
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Marek

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That would be punishing those people for the government's past failures. What I'm saying is that we should not commit the same offense--leaving people civilly ignorant--against future generations.

And as I said before, that's where you're placing emphasis. I'm more concerned with the United States falling behind other nations in science and mathematics, prevalent cultural intolerance and ignorance, and a lack of critical thinking skills. If we can't get these things right, I'm not convinced greater civil literacy will help much. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the solution might be.
 
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laconicstudent

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Okay, I don't have time to touch on everything else. Not to mention we're not going to reach an agreement on whether or not America is imperialistic, so it's almost not even worth debating. Like a dog chasing its tail in circles, really. I did, however, I want to discuss the Japanese internment camp issue a bit.

As you please.


I can't believe you really just invoked Godwin's Law.

Isn't something I usually do, but a parallel exists, wouldn't you agree?

I know you're nearly a decade my junior and when you're under the age of 25 it's really nifty to draw Nazi Germany analogies to illustrate your disdain for something, but please try and keep things in perspective.

I fail to see how my being under the age of 25 and a decade your junior has an impact here. I compared the Japanese internment camps with the Nazi concentration camps because in both cases a government forcibly confined an ethnic group. This isn't a "nifty" way to express dislike. I quite resent your implication that I am somehow incapable of expressing an honest opinion.

The internment camps didn't come anywhere close to the holocaust.

I don't believe I said that.

Auschwitz made the Japanese internment camps look like a Holiday Inn.

I know. I never said otherwise.

Oh, and the one crucial difference is that we only detained them there and sometimes let them leave the camp for various reasons. They were fed, provided medical care, given a place to stay. Was it ideal? No. Was it fair? No. Were we shaving their heads, branding them and then sending them into experimentation labs to have vacuums suck their eyes out or expose them to chemical burns only to gas them to death if they survived such torture? No.

Precisely, it would appear we agree then.

The worst aspect of the interment camps was the tragic loss of homes and businesses. That was the difficult part. Going back to nothing. Those imprisoned during the Nazi regime didn't have to worry about that. Most of them died.

I am aware of that. I never said otherwise.

Yes and did we not issue a statement of apology and reparations? Under president Reagan, no less?

What does this have to do with the fact that there wasn't real evidence?


You're denying that there are American citizens who hate this country?

No, of course not. I question the claim that your statement:
these globalism loving, America-hating, commie teachers.

is even remotely justified.

In my opinion if someone has nothing but negative things to say about their nation's founding and present-day dealings then they hate their country.

You are drawing a generalization about all teachers, and not everything they say in the classroom is necessarily personal opinion.


They are un-American concepts.

Why? Considering America was founded on an idea of personal liberty and freedom, what is your basis for excluding them? The American ideal of self-determination logically includes the right to adopt and change our underlying political ideology.

How is it American to give up our sovereignty and let that failure called the United Nations have dominion over us?

How is it un-American? Why should it be un-American?

And please let me know how Communism is working out for Cuba and China. I implore you - go live there sometime and see if America should emulate that sort of a system.

Well, Cuba strangely hasn't folded yet despite our embargo on them, so I'd say they are doing fairly well all things considered. And considering how China is doing... Well, if we determine political ideology merely by which country is most successful in the world today, I would advise becoming Communist in a heartbeat.

How much of our debt do they own again? $772 billion?
 
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Well that's funny because none of that falls under the category of imperialism. Is America, technically, an Empire? I mean, Britain has an empire, but the United States doesn't. If we want to get really technical, America was a colonialist nation. But the facts really get in the way when we're trying to appeal to emotion and talk about what an evil beast America is. What with all the bailing out we do for other nations, helping them solve their problems when they ask us and whatnot. :doh:

So basically if you engage in imperialist behaviour (annexation of or exerting influence over territories for political and/or military/strategical and/or economical reasons, often by force or coercion) but you don't call it imperialism, it isn't imperialism?

If the British hadn't called it an empire, if they saw their territories in the Americas, Asia and Australia as simply an "expansion" of their sovereignty (which is the language that the Texas School Boards would like to see used in relation to America), it wouldn't have been imperialism?

An earlier poster used this definition for imperialism:

n.1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
2. The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

Can you tell me how this doesn't match with US poicy in relation to the territories which were not included in the original signitory states of the constitution but are either now part of the United States or are controlled by the United States? Manifest destiny and American excptionalism are fundamentally justifications for imperialist behaviour.

Expansionism/interventionism/imperialism - the semantic game is a pointless one to play. All, in practice, are referring to exactly the same behaviours and policies. Why shroud your history in euphemisms? All countries have aspects of their history which they would rather not have at all, aspects which they are ashamed of, times when they acted badly... the only way we will learn from the past is if we acknowledge it. It is counterproductive to pretend that any country's history (or present) is perfect or to try to airbrush out the imperfections (and seriously, when Thomas Jefferson is getting airbrushed out as an imperfection you have to start thinking something majorly wrong is going on!).

My country has a far from perfect history - it took until the 1970s for Australia to recognise the aboriginal inhabitants of our land as humans with rights, to abandon our blatantly racist immigration policy the "White Australia Policy", it took until last year to apologise for the practice of forcibly removing aboriginal children from their families and putting them in state and church run facilities which were basically centres of abuse and neglect, fostering them off to white families and refusing them the possibility of seeing their families again... It would be a travesty if these outrages where removed from our history books, forgotten and ignored by generations in the future. It isn't "nice" to think about, it clashes with the image of the free and just land that we, for the most part, live in today, it makes us uncomfortable... but so it should. It is a productive uncomfortableness - it makes us acknowledge what has been done wrong and provides the impetus to set wrongs right and to work hard to ensure we do not do the same again. I think the US as much as any nation has historical lessons such as these to learn. You do future generations of Americans a disservice to hide the truth, and you allow previous wrongs to be committed again.
 
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katautumn

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I fail to see how my being under the age of 25 and a decade your junior has an impact here.

Because nine times out of ten a person's perception of issues changes once they reach a certain point in their adult years. Usually it happens when a person gets married or becomes a parent. Sometimes it takes until a person is around thirty years of age. All I can say is that the opinions you have now are highly likely to change and you will look back at twenty and think "my, my, how silly I was". Just as I will do the same looking back at twenty-nine when I am nearing forty.

I compared the Japanese internment camps with the Nazi concentration camps because in both cases a government forcibly confined an ethnic group. This isn't a "nifty" way to express dislike. I quite resent your implication that I am somehow incapable of expressing an honest opinion.

I did not mean to imply that. I'm sorry that's how it came across. I'm one hundred percent certain you are being honest and sincere about how you feel. I'm only stating that it's highly likely that once you are looking at thirty and beyond, you're likely to have a substantial difference in your views than you do right now. That's not an insult. It's simply a reality of life.

I don't believe I said that.

You stated we were "emulating the Nazis". Perhaps if the statement had been more specific, like "we were emulating the Nazis by segregating a particular race into a camp" it wouldn't have been assumed you meant we were emulating the holocaust.

I know. I never said otherwise.

Fair enough. I assumed that by using the broad phrase "emulating Nazis" that you weren't referring to an isolated aspect of the Nazi regime.

You are drawing a generalization about all teachers, and not everything they say in the classroom is necessarily personal opinion.

Not all teachers. Perhaps not even most. The fact remains there are teachers in our system who are subliminally teaching children to question authority, hate the government and view America as some evil empire.

Why? Considering America was founded on an idea of personal liberty and freedom, what is your basis for excluding them? The American ideal of self-determination logically includes the right to adopt and change our underlying political ideology.

Because establishing a Communistic system would be the exact opposite of embracing liberty. Communism, in theory, isn't such a terrible thing. Communism, in practice, is a disaster. The problem is that the tenets of Communism, as a whole, are an oxymoron.


Well, Cuba strangely hasn't folded yet despite our embargo on them, so I'd say they are doing fairly well all things considered.

How would we know how things are going in Cuba? They have a strong military presence to protect their interests. How often do we hear about how things are going with their citizens? I'd think if life in Cuba was so great no one would ever be willing to float toward Miami on a door.

And considering how China is doing... Well, if we determine political ideology merely by which country is most successful in the world today, I would advise becoming Communist in a heartbeat.

How much of our debt do they own again? $772 billion?

That is why China is successful - because of the consumerism of Western culture. We are beholden to China because of our consumerism, not because they are inherently successful. Let's not forget that they have a strong labor force because they engage in slave and child labor, something we abhor in American society. They also have media censorship, there is no freedom of religion, they have the one-child policy, and up until the 1990s homosexuality was illegal. It doesn't sound like China is an ideal country for those who espouse liberal views. It should also be noted that China is slowly moving away from their Communist system and moving toward Capitalism.
 
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katautumn

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Phyllis Schlaffley

My biggest gripe about the woman is her statement about marital rape being a myth. So, in that respect, I'm not sure why she's being praised as some tremendous contributor to American history. She couldn't even secure a position as president of the National Federation of Republican Women. I'm not even sure that anyone would even know who she is if she hadn't publicly fought so hard against the ERA.
 
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Kalevalatar

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Déjà vu -- Texas does Putins.

Russian textbooks attempt to rewrite history
A new Russian history book for schools, approved by the Putin Government, glosses over Stalin’s Terror and other truths


Seems like the Texas conservatives had been direct copy&pasting the Kremlin-approved “positive history” spin:

“It is wrong to write a textbook that will fill the children who learn from it with horror and disgust about their past and their people. A generally positive tone for the teaching of history will build optimism and self-assurance in the growing young generation and make them feel as if they are part of their country’s bright future. A history in which there is good and bad, things to be proud of and things that are regrettable. But the general tone for a school textbook should still be positive.”
 
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Billnew

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OP: that would be terrible!
A political view applied to the teaching of history?
Slanting the facts of history to highlight a political agenda!
Never!
oh, wait. We have that now. Just left, not right.

I read a poll(rasmusen, I believe)
61% of those polled believe the history books in our schools
are written to be PC rather than accurate.

How about we strive to make history more accurate, rather then PC or Conservative?
 
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OP: that would be terrible!
A political view applied to the teaching of history?
Slanting the facts of history to highlight a political agenda!
Never!
oh, wait. We have that now. Just left, not right.

I read a poll(rasmusen, I believe)
61% of those polled believe the history books in our schools
are written to be PC rather than accurate.

How about we strive to make history more accurate, rather then PC or Conservative?

What is the evidence that the current teaching of history in the US is slanted to the left?

A poll which states that a majority of people believe that it is slanted to the left doesn't mean it is so. People believe all sorts of things which aren't necessarily true.
 
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Dracil

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What is the evidence that the current teaching of history in the US is slanted to the left?

A poll which states that a majority of people believe that it is slanted to the left doesn't mean it is so. People believe all sorts of things which aren't necessarily true.

Indeed. Just look at how many Americans still believe in Creationism.
 
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