Two NYPD executed

mkgal1

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I agree with you, WBS.

I'm grateful for the civic leaders that are really making attempts at bridging the divide....like the mayor of Sacramento, California (and ignoring the chorus of dividers):

Speaking at the end of Tuesday’s City Council meeting, Johnson asked Police Chief Sam Somers Jr. to report back to the council next month on ways the Police Department can “restore the connectivity between our officers and the community.”

Read more here: Sacramento Mayor Kevin Johnson wants police to consider body cameras | The Sacramento Bee
 
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mkgal1

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NOTE: I am not excusing the behavior exhibited in the video. But it doesn't really address the notion that people are just getting beat up when they're not doing anything. Cops don't just show up somewhere and decide they're going to go to a beat-down.

I think more specifically, though, the issue is the lack of regard for the person in the amount of force used (sometimes to the point of death) and ignoring laws in order to handle possible breaks of the law. To distance ourselves by suggesting, "well.....if they didn't break the law [or appear to break the law], they wouldn't be in that position" just seems a bit calloused to me. It's just that little seed of justification (often based on past behavior and attributing that to the whole person's character and value) that is used to dehumanize people.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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I think more specifically, though, the issue is the lack of regard for the person in the amount of force used (sometimes to the point of death) and ignoring laws in order to handle possible breaks of the law. To distance ourselves by suggesting, "well.....if they didn't break the law [or appear to break the law], they wouldn't be in that position" just seems a bit calloused to me. It's just that little seed of justification (often based on past behavior and attributing that to the whole person's character and value) that is used to dehumanize people.

That's kinda the whole foundation of the matter though.

If someone wasn't breaking the law, they probably wouldn't find themselves on the end of a police beat down.

Again, it does not excuse the behavior of cops that abuse their power, position or authority, but the times I've gotten in trouble were because I was doing something illegal. Michael Brown had just strong-armed a convenience store. Eric Garner was illegally selling cigarettes. There's a pattern that people fail to bring up in these situations.
 
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mkgal1

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That's kinda the whole foundation of the matter though.

If someone wasn't breaking the law, they probably wouldn't find themselves on the end of a police beat down.

Again, it does not excuse the behavior of cops that abuse their power, position or authority, but the times I've gotten in trouble were because I was doing something illegal. Michael Brown had just strong-armed a convenience store. Eric Garner was illegally selling cigarettes. There's a pattern that people fail to bring up in these situations.

No.....that's often brought up. However.....even if those facts are accurate.....neither of those crimes were a threat against other's lives to the point that they needed to lose their lives.

I'd also included the words, "appearance of breaking the law....often based on past behavior". When a person loses their hope.....they really don't care about much--and I believe *that's* the foundation of the issue (stealing hope from people).

I believe it will take the law enforcement officers that are committed to genuinely being the "sheepdogs" to turn it around (but turning a blind eye to it or remaining in denial is only going to perpetuate it further).
 
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whatbogsends

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Nothing is ever clear. There's still a good chunk of that video missing.

There is a claim of police brutality.
There is a claim that Octavius was argumentative and aggressive.

The videos don't prove either statement correct.

And my point still stands. There WAS a legal issue here regarding someone's car. Unfortunately, most of the links for this story have conflicting reports as to what the issue was, whether it was parking tickets or expired tags.

As to why in the blazes they needed 32 cops there, I honestly can't answer that. That is definitely overkill and I guess it was a slow day in the precinct.

NOTE: I am not excusing the behavior exhibited in the video. But it doesn't really address the notion that people are just getting beat up when they're not doing anything. Cops don't just show up somewhere and decide they're going to go to a beat-down.

And so it goes. Even when confronted with clear evidence, the shield comes right up.

Your point does not stand.

There is a claim Octavius was "argumentative and agressive" (clearly not physically).

There is evidence of police brutality. There was even enough evidence of police brutality that 6 cops involved were fired (even though 32 were involved on some level, and at least 20 stormed into the house illegally).

The videos certainly don't prove Octavius was argumentative (i'll believe that he was), but they clearly show a mis-use of police force (unless you think that slamming a person to the ground and putting them in a choke hold is the proper procedure for someone verbally protesting). Octavius' back is to the police officer, who grabs him by the neck and throws him to the ground, and proceeds to put him in a choke hold.

You can see the initiation of force by the police, while the person (protesting his vehicle getting towed from either a parking ticket or expired tag) is just standing there. How could that use of force be justified?

What did the guy videotaping his brother do? Excessive language (while watching his brother get beaten)? He is legally allowed to videotape, and was targeted by the cops for doing so. How can you justify punitive action against a citizen who is exercising his rights?

What could the aunt in the wheelchair have possbily done to deserve a beating? She was taken to the emergency room for treatment. The police invaded her home in force because they didn't like her brother legally videotaping them.

Police brutality, illegal confiscation and destruction of evidence, conspiracy to obstruct justice, illegal home entry, battery of the aunt, and what do we see? 6 police lose their badge (even though at least 2 were working to get back on the force), and NONE of the cops facing any sort of criminal charges, despite a number of criminal acts evident.

Despite clear video evidence of most of this, we have people like you who are rushing to the defense of the police. If there were no 2nd camera (the brother who videotaped had his camera illegally taken and the video destroyed), we wouldn't even know about this, and if it made the news at all, people like you would be insisting that the police did absolutely nothing wrong (as opposed to you trying to qualify the illegal police actions despite the evidence).
 
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whatbogsends

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That's kinda the whole foundation of the matter though.

If someone wasn't breaking the law, they probably wouldn't find themselves on the end of a police beat down.

Again, it does not excuse the behavior of cops that abuse their power, position or authority, but the times I've gotten in trouble were because I was doing something illegal. Michael Brown had just strong-armed a convenience store. Eric Garner was illegally selling cigarettes. There's a pattern that people fail to bring up in these situations.

Octavius Johnson had a car parked illegally.

Juaquez Johnson legally videotaped his brother being the recipient of police abuse.

Sharon Johnson lived in the house with her nephews.

There's a pattern here that people fail to bring up in these situations.
 
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CryOfALion

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Thanks for proving my point that "welfare president" isn't racist.
That was your point?

So, you are comfortable with "welfare president" because it isn't racist?

It is prejudiced, and ignorant. Are you OK with that?



Yes, just as he did with Trayvon Martin. I never said how Christ would judge him. So what is your point?

Clearly you don't get it. You are supposed to be like Christ. People on this forum bear the badge of Christian. And yet, many of them have no problem judging a dead person, and assuming details of an event that happened despite their absence.

You were not there when Martin was shot. I would venture and say 99.99% of people here were not there. Not for Martin, Not for brown. Yet, they call these DEAD People savages, violent, thugs, beasts - and condone the murder of these people.

THAT is not Christ like, and it is not humane.

My point: STOP BEING HYPOCRITICAL ACTING LIKE YOU FOLLOW CHRIST WHEN YOU ARE QUICK TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE, ESPECIALLY BASED ON WHAT YOU HEAR. You seem like the same type of "Christian" that would damn a Sabbath keeper, and praise a murderer. Either way, you give atheists reason for pause: no wonder why they constantly question God. There is barely anyone acting like Christ, but a lot of people wearing the badge.



Just what is it I am defending exactly? Never mind, don't bother.

EXACTLY. You just say things without any thought. And, you don't even realize how offensive you are.



Again, thanks for proving my point.

Do you even know what you are arguing? I said post the response you get when you tell a sociology/political science/anthropology professor that "black people are on equal footing..."

I don't see any video, or proof you did that, so how does this prove your point?




Except he wasn't choked to death. He wasn't murdered. Was his death horrible, tragic, and preventable? Yes. He should have gotten medical attention much quicker. But your refusal to stick to facts gets in the way of any discussion.

HE WAS NOT CHOKED TO DEATH?

'I can't breathe': Eric Garner put in chokehold by NYPD officer ? video | US news | The Guardian

New York man dies after chokehold by police - CNN.com

Eric Garner Chokehold Death: NY Police Union Chief Praises Grand Jury - NBC News


www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT66U_Ftdng


He died from choking. He died from manslaughter. He kept saying he couldn't breathe.

Do you think the choke hold massaged his neck, and he died of fairy dust?


Since I am currently a member of the church that Paul was founding, I really doubt that. But somehow your massive intellect and education give you such hidden vast knowledge about the past that you alone know the truth.

Please don't play the "over intellectual" game.

The bible is clear that Paul killed Christians. And, since he killed Christians, it had to be during and after Christ. That is why I said 40AD, because Christ supposedly died and resurrected around 33AD. It was an educated guess. And, let's be clear: people don't equate biblical knowledge with "massive intellect and education." The opposite, in fact, is true especially on these forums.

I said you wouldn't persecute Paul today because he is a champion of faith - you proved this yourself by speaking about the church you come from.



Not at all true, and yes, the correct word is ranting. Your condescension and arrogance are getting very stale.

"You never know when you entertain angels, and your mentality clearly sets a limit on who can be an angel. You can't even consider that someone give their life over to Christ at the last moment (and therefore, judgment is ludicrous.) The narrative instructs you to do the contrary."

That is condescending? I would say presumptive, but with due reason especially with respect to what you think people die from vis-a-vis Eric Garner chokehold. You think i am condescending likely because of my educational pedigree. In reality, I don't believe I am any smarter than you. I have heard 9-year olds describe the fabric of space time more eloquently than many of my professors. Degrees don't mean anything. So, get off of the intellectualism: in hindsight I shouldn't have even talked about my educational background as now it has become an argumentative crutch. It is the same reason why I don't post my age, or faith icon. It will become an argumentative crutch.


Whatever. Antebellum America is long gone.

No it isnt. It is called the Prison industrial Complex for starters - many names it goes by.

But, since you say it doesn't exist it doesn't exist, right?



And yet you, dearie claim to speak for all blacks throughout all history. Very hypocritical. Since no one but you can have an opinion on the matter, and none of our experiences count, continuing the conversation is obviously a waste of time.

Oh, quite wrong, dearie. I never claimed to speak for all black people. I even said I am an individual - something you continue to ignore.

And, you can have an opinion; dont act like I am barring your free speech now. It hasn't stop you yet.

And, quote me where I insinuated any conversation was a waste of time. Please do, because I don't waste my time.

I told you I Don't Think You Are stupid, I Think You Are ignorant.




So? Not qualified to speak on the matter, according to you?

Being black in the States, bearing a black child, raising a black child and having that child make it to 20 years old in the States are things that are much different than being godmother, or adoptive mother of a black child. Worse? Never said that. Unqualified? Never said that. But, let's not pretend that a white, latino, Asian or middle eastern adoptive parent will know the dynamics and intricacies of what it means to be black in America.

When they are older, and they see the video of Garner being choked to death, or read about Trayvon Martin, what would you expect them to think? How do you think they will identify, or resonate with general things that happen to people that look like them? How will you raise them to deal with their first racist encounter?

It can be done; people have done it. I am not speaking on anyone's parenting ability. I am being realistic. If you and I are arguing about whether a black man was chocked to death when their is video footage showing this, how do you think you will instruct and guide a child that looks like Garner - when s/he has similar qualms?

And, you still don't even know my ethnicity, because I have not told you.
 
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CryOfALion

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I think this is always such a difficult discussion, mostly because so many different things get thrown into the pile (and then there're stereotypes and prejudices). I believe the first thing that needs to be done is to unravel all the good from the bad. Like the comedian Kevin Hart said, "Not all cops are bad. Not all black people are criminals. Not all white people are racist. Stop labeling. It's 2014 let's get equal".

There are lots of negative things that are contributing---things that haven't been mentioned, like the rap music and movies that glorify the war between law enforcement and criminals (making the police out to be the "enemy"). Why is that legal? There are FB groups with names like "Kill the Cops". I don't see that as "free speech"---it's inciting hatred (even murder).

There was a social experiment attempted years ago, called the Stanford Prison experiment. It seems like that has become a reality playing out (the Lucifer effect) .

The rioters shouldn't be mixed in with the peaceful protesters.....civic leaders that point out that people are not being treated equally shouldn't be shunned---the problems they mention should be addressed, not ignored. It's not people that are the problem.......it's mindsets (and those can be changed).

In fact you are spot on. One of the only "free speeches" not protected is "fighting words," otherwise known as threats (especially on life.) Opponents of police brutality - like myself - don't wish for dead cops. (As a bit of irony, I considered joining the force; so, besides belief in Christ being my social and moral barometer, I wouldn't call for death of police.)

And, as per your intimation, there are agent provocateurs that are hired and employed to, among other things, turn a peaceful protest into a violent one. Because, while we are arguing over morality, there is big money to be made in these conflicts, just like there is big money to be made in wars.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcbdmAtpIz0


I wish we could stop labeling, but I have to call you idealistic for even thinking that is a possibility (and, hopefully you will understand why I say that.)

We are barely at a point where women are even considered to be equals of men. Race, especially in America, is a topic no one wants to really touch. They leave statistics and stereotypes to do the talking. I don't think it will ever get better because we are at war right now - WWIII, or a continuation of WWII, depending on who you ask. Yes, I said we are at war: the shots fired aren't heard 'round the world yet, but economically, financially, socially and territorial we are beyond the precipice of WWIII. It just isn't "hot" yet.

"It is not people that are the problems....it is mindsets."

Eloquently stated, but let's think why I would, again consider it idealistic to hope there would be a change in mindset. God said we have to die to ourselves to become right. That means a lot - for starters, you would have to literally reprogram your brain to forget everything you have learned in your life, and the reprogram your brain to align with God's will. Clearly we both know this doesn't happen overnight, and many of us bear the burden of literal "reeducation" for hope of being with God. But, why would anyone change their mindset and "reeducate" their mentalities of a group/people/class that they don't even care about anyway?

I am a philosophical cynic, but I am also a colloquial cynic. I see very few people actually responding to your very real, and very sensible appeals. Why? Because of our ego, and even our warped superego that is supposed to lasso our egos. And, I mean this happens on all sides.

What a "day" to be human...

And, by the way I by no means think you should change your "idealistic" mentality. On the contrary, when the world goes to "feces," people like you will be worth more than your weight in gold. But, right now - while food tastes good, the sky is still sort of blue, and the air isn't toxic - "we" don't want to hear that from you. And, I include myself because as I said, I am colloquially cynical.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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My point: STOP BEING HYPOCRITICAL ACTING LIKE YOU FOLLOW CHRIST WHEN YOU ARE QUICK TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE, ESPECIALLY BASED ON WHAT YOU HEAR. You seem like the same type of "Christian" that would damn a Sabbath keeper, and praise a murderer. Either way, you give atheists reason for pause: no wonder why they constantly question God. There is barely anyone acting like Christ, but a lot of people wearing the badge.

This is over the line. WAY over the line.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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And so it goes. Even when confronted with clear evidence, the shield comes right up.

It's not a shield. The video does not start out at the initial part of this situation. You can certainly guess at what's going on, but that's it.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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No worse than somebody accusing me of condoning the killing of police.

Yes, way worse. It's actually against the rules. I addressed your POSTS, not you. This is addressing the PERSON and their faith.
Flaming and Harassment
● Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian is not allowed.
 
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CryOfALion

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This is over the line. WAY over the line.

Excuse me?

Way over what line? You think I was flaming?

A hit dog will holler, that is all.

And, I meant what I said. As a matter of fact, I wasn't the first person that said this.

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Matthew 7: 1-5

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:11-12

Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.
John 7:24

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:1-3.

And, that is just a teaser beginning. You have a lot of nerve accusing me of crossing a line, especially considering I don't judge the dead, and revile them with commonplace stereotypical rhetoric.

It is very revealing that 1) out of everything I posted you snipped what you thought was an atrocity and, 2) you would get on me for calling out hypocrite - and not reproof those who judge and revile the dead.

Wow. As I said before (perhaps in another thread,) it is no wonder why atheists have pause when reconciling God. We do not give them much to hope and desire with out actions. Who would want to be the subject of a god whose followers are judgmental, ignorant and downright mean?

You really have a lot of nerve.
 
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CryOfALion

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If you were really concerned about what is right, PW, you would get on the people defaming dead people they have never met or heard of besides through media, and especially applying that judgment to an entire people as a means of justification. That, to me is vile - to talk badly about the dead.

One day all of us will be dead, and you better hope God is not as lax and judgmental as some of the people that have posted on this thread. You should hope He gives you mercy and forgiveness - and righteous judgment. If He were like some people on this thread none of us would make it - and yet some of them wear the Christian badge.

Do you get it? The name of this game is "Spot The Hypocrisy, " not "Let's See How I can Make A Person Look Like An Accuser And A Flamer Of Persons."

I thought I saw it all when I was called a heretic for wanting to follow God's law. Now, I know there is much more to see.
 
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CryOfALion

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No worse than somebody accusing me of condoning the killing of police.

It really isn't worse at all. Let's compare:

Pointing out a Christian may be a hypocrite, or

Insinuating a person condones the death of another human.

Compared to some of the vile things I have seen, and been called, pointing out someone's hypocrisy is a luxurious complement.

And as I said Bedford, if this was really about right, those people who said people like us condone the killing of cops would be reproofed. And yet, here we are discussing the "line crossings," and egregious act of pointing out someone's hypocrisy - despite the fact God Himself abhors this.
 
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mkgal1

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I wish we could stop labeling, but I have to call you idealistic for even thinking that is a possibility (and, hopefully you will understand why I say that.)

I'm absolutely okay with that label (and was actually going to post earlier that I realize I'm idealistic).
 
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