Two Emails and the Nature of Belief in God

[RaiseTheDead]

When I read the gospels, on the most basic level, I'm encountering the writer's voices. The writers in turn have created Jesus' "voice" in a form that I can listen to

Then there's all the other stuff I bring to the table.

We all bring things to the table when we try to listen. No one arrives with a totally clean slate. What I don't want to do is arrive with a slate that's been filled out by someone else so that instead of listening I'm ticking off bullet points,

How successful have I been in cleaning that slate a little so I can listen? I don't truly know.

Does something emerge from my attempts to listen that is Jesus' Voice? That's the question. All I can do is sit with that question. I'll never be able to answer it, I don't think.

Connect this with your previous statement, that whatever Isaiah learned you want to learn also, regardless what it might be, and this is a beautiful position to take! I could of course relate it to many passages in Scripture, but don't feel that's necessary.

I wish professing Christians would all understand "sitting at the Master's feet" as well as you do

 

[Glass*Soul]

Yes that is correct. When God wants to speak to you, it is true. It is inescapable, He is naturally going to have the last word.

But it is written what happened, why don't you believe it?

If someone says that Jesus was baptized, he could be lying, but barring some particular reason to doubt the veracity of the story, I tend to give it the benefit of the doubt. After all, there is nothing about the nature of reality to preclude baptisms. Unverifiable supernatural claims, OTOH are beyond belief. The nature of reality gives every appearance of precluding them and they cannot be repeated and confirmed. There is nothing there to hang the hat of belief on. But that's OK because the important thing to me isn't whether I think it happened or not (my worldview decisively precludes that it did happen), but that the person telling the story found this particular detail to be salient. So, I have to do something about it. What I do is allow the detail to color the story without regarding it as actual. For someone else, that may create an intolerable tension. For me it doesn't.

Excuse me for not asking sooner, but what exactly gives you enough confidence to say "there is no God"?

If I had to roll the hundreds of hours of anti-Apologetics I've done on this website (that, incidentally, have all been deleted) into a single sentence, it would be that the claim of "God" is too lacking in definition to represent anything actual and that, furthermore, this is not due to an inability on our part to discover an existing good definition but upon the very nature of the claim itself making it undefinable in actual terms (terms relating to actual things). What we're up to when we talk about God is talking about us. We can't talk about God without it being us.

What is your judgment?

Hmmm, well I know that I have experienced The Holy Spirit descending like a dove. Spirituality is an interesting realm, not too different from the physical, but certainly able to be discerned as such.

In fact if we scrutinize what is said in BibleGateway - Quick search: spirit dove all the gospels, it really isn't clear who exactly God spoke to. John the baptist witnessed it, so did Jesus, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence that others saw it. Luke doesn't make that clear, but considering that Jesus tried to keep His identity secret, I would not expect that God would have spilled the beans to everyone present.

Fair enough, I suppose.

Too presumptuous for me.

So what if there was? What consequence does that have to your beliefs?

Dear God have mercy on us

My (rather too long) point is that the Lord, Liar, Lunatic argument is a sort of false dichotomy (trichotomy? LOL) and that I don't have to accept any of those three options. I may, if I so desire, accept something somewhat more nuanced that allows me to continue to have a positive relationship with the material despite my terminal doubts.

I'm more interested to know what you do with your own baptism.

Not much, actually. It wasn't particularly profound but was the best I could do at the time to deal with the fear mongering that I was being fed by my church. Meh.

Careful there, it was through not trusting God that death became a problem. There is of course, the opportunity to have life never ending, why would you want to forsake that promise on the grounds of "I need to really, truly understand what the devil on my other shoulder is telling me too". He lied to Adam and Eve, he murdered them and wants to murder you too. That person deserves no trust.

I was using it as a metaphor for knowing one's faults.

What benefit does it have to dismiss His testimony?

Not dismissing it is my intention. I place it in a new light so that I can not dismiss it. I may be doing a bad job of expressing this.

 

[Glass*Soul]

What scripture says about your unbelief is pretty straight forward:

Romans 1:18-21

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So, what it is saying is that God has made it clear to you, one way or the other, that He is there, only you have suppressed the truth. It is saying that you have no excuse for being an atheist.

What God appreciates and can work with is someone who is interested in the truth, beyond their preconceived notions of reality. He is looking for someone who can admit that everything they know could in fact be wrong. Someone who is sincerely looking for the truth, who, being confronted by their own subjective biases, would have to admit this as a possibility. On the other side of this possibility is Jesus Christ, knocking on the door of your heart. The question is, will you open the door and let Him in?

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I find it interesting that you are drawing a distinction between truth and reality. I have also been attempting to do this.

In one sense my heart is a physical organ. It has no door and, interestingly, can be replaced with another person's heart or even a machine without me losing my essence, my Self. But the writer of Revelation means something else when he says "heart" and "door" and one senses that "knocking" means something quite different from what one does to a physical door with one's knuckles. We're talking here about my essence, my Self, that cannot be borrowed or replaced. If we move on to the terms "Christ" or "God" in this context, we getting even farther out from terms that can be connected to something actual. We're getting Concept in its purest form, actually. Idea as Idea.

Romans 1:18-21 is really more about mankind being a moral being, with that morality purportedly being manifest in the very workings of the universe (I tend to agree but that is really a new topic) than about making an Apologetic for the existence of God. If we turn the page into chapter 2, we get the point--the "therefore" as it were:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

It's not, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who don't believe in God," but "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else."

He's going to use this reasoning as his springboard into a discussion of law and faith.

Taken plainly on face value, the universe only tells us about the universe. The universe is itself a discrete body of information by definition. Any information that is not a part of it is utterly (and I do mean utterly) inaccessible to us. Speculating about it gets us no closer. It it were in any way potentially accessible to us, it would be a part of this universe.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Connect this with your previous statement, that whatever Isaiah learned you want to learn also, regardless what it might be, and this is a beautiful position to take! I could of course relate it to many passages in Scripture, but don't feel that's necessary.

I wish professing Christians would all understand "sitting at the Master's feet" as well as you do

Thanks for the positive comments.

I probably come across as better at "sitting at the Master's feet" in my writing than I do in life. I tend to get overwhelmed by people and spend a certain amount of my time feeling exhausted and trying to gather the wherewithal to get out there and rub shoulders with my fellow human beings again. LOL

I don't know how to express this properly, but the Bible became much more purely interesting to me when I stopped viewing it through a supernatural lens. If I look, for instance, at the opening paragraphs of the book of Ezekiel and, instead of seeing it as straightforward reporting of what God looks like, find myself wondering, "Holy cow, what was going on with this man?!" that's far more fascinating to me. I mean, why would someone imagine or envision God as like fire and hot glowing metal and like a human being who called him "son of man?" The answer has to be profound in regard to the human experience.

 

[thesunisout]

I find it interesting that you are drawing a distinction between truth and reality. I have also been attempting to do this.

In one sense my heart is a physical organ. It has no door and, interestingly, can be replaced with another person's heart or even a machine without me losing my essence, my Self. But the writer of Revelation means something else when he says "heart" and "door" and one senses that "knocking" means something quite different from what one does to a physical door with one's knuckles. We're talking here about my essence, my Self, that cannot be borrowed or replaced. If we move the the terms "Christ" or "God" in this context, we getting even farther out from terms that can be connected to something actual. We're getting Concept in its purest form, actually. Idea as Idea.

Yet, scripture is always talking about something particular and not conceptually. The voice of all scripture, which is the Holy Spirit, is always speaking from the truth, which is absolute. In this case, the meaning of "heart" could be likened to your essence, or beingness. There is a theological explanation, but it is pointing to the seat of your personality (your inner man), or the totality of your being, or the ultimate intention of your self. I will also add that truth is not distinct from reality, but that it is what underpins it. What we believe about the truth is what constitutes our worldview, and our worldview is like a pair of glasses that we wear. What will see will match what you already believe aprioi because you are interpreting everything you see through those beliefs (glasses).

You're not aware of it, but there is a tri-unity to your being, which is body soul and spirit. Here is a helpful diagram:

http://www.faithandhealthconnection.org/uploads/spirit-soul-body-mind-emotions-will.jpg

In any case, God is speaking to you, each and every day. There is a reason you are here in this forum having these discussions, as well as studying the scriptures. Perhaps you are like me in that you will have to have these impressions about life completely broken down and shattered into a million pieces before you come to accept Jesus Christ as Lord. I hope you are less stubborn than I was.

You seem to be interested in the truth, which is why I believe you will find it. If you could just understand and follow this one scripture, though, you could skip many of the trials you will face:

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding

God is letting you know, here, that your wisdom isn't going to get you there. That you are unable to comprehend the things of God by yourself, and that until you surrender your understanding to Him, you will only be going around in circles.

Revelation comes when you open the door and He shines His light into your life. Until that time, you will not be able to tell light from darkness, and in fact you will think your darkness is light. When the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Romans 1:18-21 is really more about mankind being a moral being, with that morality purportedly being manifest in the very workings of the universe (I tend to agree but that is really a new topic) than about making an Apologetic for the existence of God. If we turn the page into chapter 2, we get the point--the "therefore" as it were:

It's not, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who don't believe in God," but "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else."

He's going to use this reasoning as his springboard into a discussion of law and faith.

I will have to disagree with your interpretation here. Let me ask you a question; do you believe this because this was the natural interpretation, or do you believe this because you rejected the assertion that God has provided you evidence and then you found a way to interpret away my conclusion? That isn't how proper exegesis works. We understand everything in context, and we let scripture interpret scripture.

In this case, your interpretation is immediately refuted by the context provided by Romans 2:2

"Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?"

Paul is drawing a dichotomy here between those he was referring to in Romans 1, and the audience he is speaking to Romans 2. The dichotomy is between the Jews and the Gentiles. He is speaking to the Jews here and admonishing them for judging the gentiles for their despicable behavior (notice it says the condemnation spoken in Romans 1 is based on truth) when they are in fact guilty of the same crimes. You can see this further looking down to Romans 2:17-24

Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you

The Jews were feeling very self-righteous because of their law and looked down upon the gentile because they felt superior for knowing God, but Paul is saying that they are actually no better and maybe even worse.

Romans 1:18-21 is very clear, and doesn't really need any interpretation. What God is telling you is that you have been ignoring the plain truth about Him because of your own selfish motives and desires, which is rooted in a rebellion against His authority. When you are personally autonomous you become a law unto yourself, and many people enjoy that position very much. They get to sit in Gods throne as the King and Judge of everything and everyone and its all about them. What God says is no, I made you, and I am the one in control. He says you can't even get a single breath without His help. He also says, you'll never be happy until He is sitting on that throne. As someone once said, for peace of mind, resign as general manager of the Universe.

Taken plainly on face value, the universe only tells us about the universe.
The universe is itself a discrete body of information by definition. Any information that is not a part of it is utterly (and I do mean utterly) inaccessible to us. Speculating about it gets us no closer. It it were in any way potentially accessible to us, it would be a part of this universe.

Much as a painting tells us about the painter, the creation tells us about the Creator. Yes, I agree that we have no access to truth on our own. To know the truth we would need to be omnipotent. There is however another option, which is that an omnipotent being could reveal the truth to us. That is what Jesus Christ did when He revealed His Fathers love for the world by His death on the cross.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I don't know how to express this properly, but the Bible became much more purely interesting to me when I stopped viewing it through a supernatural lens. If I look, for instance, at the opening paragraphs of the book of Ezekiel and, instead of seeing it as straightforward reporting of what God looks like, find myself wondering, "Holy cow, what was going on with this man?!" that's far more fascinating to me. I mean, why would someone imagine or envision God as like fire and hot glowing metal and like a human being who called him "son of man?" The answer has to be profound in regard to the human experience.

Seems like you expressed that properly to me! (Or maybe it's just a kindred spirit?)

 

[Glass*Soul]

I will have to disagree with your interpretation here. Let me ask you a question; do you believe this because this was the natural interpretation, or do you believe this because you rejected the assertion that God has provided you evidence and then you found a way to interpret away my conclusion? That isn't how proper exegesis works. We understand everything in context, and we let scripture interpret scripture.

I stick by what I said. This is not an Apologeitcs argument that Paul is launching. This passage is an introduction to a long treatise on faith and law which is the context in which it belongs. If one believes in a God who created the universe, as Paul did, it would be logical to conclude that the universe would in some way reflect his nature and to use this as a platform for what he is getting ready to reason out. If one does not, the introduction loses some of its punch, but not all of it. The universe may not be a reflection of a God in my worldview, but morality does need to reflect the universe if it is going to be useful vs absurd and destructive. So, I buy some of his set-up to his coming treatise, but not all of it.

I'm pretty weary of these few verses being pulled out of that context and used as stand-alone clobber passages against atheists, gays and lesbians. They've got to be some of the most often quoted verses on this website, and virtually never in the context of a discussion of faith vs the law. If I didn't know better I would conclude that Christianity is there to clobber these three groups to the great satisfaction of those who imagine themselves holding the hammer. Luckily I do know better.

Romans 1:18-21 is very clear, and doesn't really need any interpretation. What God is telling you is that you have been ignoring the plain truth about Him because of your own selfish motives and desires, which is rooted in a rebellion against His authority. When you are personally autonomous you become a law unto yourself, and many people enjoy that position very much. They get to sit in Gods throne as the King and Judge of everything and everyone and its all about them. What God says is no, I made you, and I am the one in control. He says you can't even get a single breath without His help. He also says, you'll never be happy until He is sitting on that throne. As someone once said, for peace of mind, resign as general manager of the Universe.

All insults.

You know virtually nothing about me.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Seems like you expressed that properly to me! (Or maybe it's just a kindred spirit?)

Could be.

The really sad thing, and I don't know what to do about this, is that my struggles with Christianity have left me so harried and jarred that I can't bear being around anything that feels even faintly religious outside of the occasional online discussion (and even that not often). I tried to join a newly forming Unitarian group here in my small town, all agreeable people who were in many ways kindred spirits. I simply could not bear it. I had to get up and leave mid-way thought the third meeting and have not gone back. I find that I have to keep my interactions strictly secular. So, kindred spirits notwithstanding, it is very hard for me to connect with anyone regarding Christianity or my studies.

 

[Glass*Soul]

The real irony of these emails and some of the discussion I've had here in this topic, is that despite the fact that as an atheist I am supposed to be such a horrid person, my friend does not see anything in my conduct that clues him in. He imagines me a Christian. Despite the fact that I am (supposedly) so immoral and selfish, stubborn and self-aggrandizing, full of foul language, directionless and violent that I am deserving of being lined up against a wall and shot, I seem to those around me to be a Christian.

Go figure.

 

[thesunisout]

I stick by what I said. This is not an Apologeitcs argument that Paul is launching. This passage is an introduction to a long treatise on faith and law which is the context in which it belongs. If one believes in a God who created the universe, as Paul did, it would be logical to conclude that the universe would in some way reflect his nature and to use this as a platform for what he is getting ready to reason out. If one does not, the introduction loses some of its punch, but not all of it. The universe may not be a reflection of a God in my worldview, but morality does need to reflect the universe if it is going to be useful vs absurd and destructive. So, I buy some of his set-up to his coming treatise, but not all of it.

I addressed your rebuttal and put it into its proper context; as I showed you, your argument is immediately refuted by the following verse in Romans 2:2. Paul is speaking to the jews about their hypocritical judgments against the gentiles. To the gentiles he says that they have no excuse for their atheism, and to the jews he is saying they are just as bad and nothing but hypocrites. You have failed to notice or understand how he is contrasting the two groups against one another, and thus your exegesis is fatally flawed.

But this is all a distraction since the meaning is plainly self-evident, and yes of course you don't believe what Paul is saying; that is the entire point, that you are suppressing the truth. I can imagine you don't like this verse, what atheist would? I would say it's because it doesn't leave you with an out. No excuse means no excuse. If God exists, you may imagine you have excuses, but according to God you have none.

All insults.

You know virtually nothing about me.

Nothing I said there was a personal insult, although if you were offended I apologize, however not for stating the truth. If you can look to the other side of the paradigm, you will see that if God exists then everything I said is an absolute fact and not intended to demean you.

The real irony of these emails and some of the discussion I've had here in this topic, is that despite the fact that as an atheist I am supposed to be such a horrid person, my friend does not see anything in my conduct that clues him in. He imagines me a Christian. Despite the fact that I am (supposedly) so immoral and selfish, stubborn and self-aggrandizing, full of foul language, directionless and violent that I am deserving of being lined up against a wall and shot, I seem to those around me to be a Christian.

You will want to dig much deeper into scripture because your understanding of Christian theology is very narrow. What scripture says is that we have all sinned and fallen short before the glory of God. That's you and me and everyone on the planet. You're not being singled out for being an atheist. Neither does the scripture say you're incapable of being moral. On the contrary it says that you have a God given conscience and that you know right from wrong.

It also says that the wages of sin is death. The difference between us is, I have obeyed God and sought His forgiveness. Now I'm sure you think of yourself as a good person, but what God consider good is moral perfection. Only one man ever lived up to that standard; Jesus Christ. Everything short of moral perfection is not considered good.

How many times do you think you've broken the 10 commandments in your lifetime? Hundreds? Thousands? Have you ever lied stolen hated took Gods name in vain looked with lust etc? Do you realize that makes you a liar, thief, blasphemer, adulterer or murderer at heart? The human standard for goodness is "good enough". In comparison to Hitler, say, you might be looking pretty good. In comparison to God though, you aren't looking good; in fact, what scripture says is that your righteous deeds are like filthy rags before a holy God. Your good behavior isn't going to buy favor with God; rather, it is your sins which have already condemned you. It is only through the righteousness of Jesus Christ that you can be forgiven. It is a free gift, nothing you can earn.

You seem like a nice guy, and very thoughtful. If you put the truth above your preconceived notions and self-interest, and seek God with humility, you will find Him. If you really want to know God, He will reveal Himself to you. The question is, will you serve Him? Would you give your life to God if He did show Himself to you?

 

[Glass*Soul]

I addressed your rebuttal and put it into its proper context; as I showed you, your argument is immediately refuted by the following verse in Romans 2:2. Paul is speaking to the jews about their hypocritical judgments against the gentiles. To the gentiles he says that they have no excuse for their atheism, and to the jews he is saying they are just as bad and nothing but hypocrites. You have failed to notice or understand how he is contrasting the two groups against one another, and thus your exegesis is fatally flawed.

But this is all a distraction since the meaning is plainly self-evident, and yes of course you don't believe what Paul is saying; that is the entire point, that you are suppressing the truth. I can imagine you don't like this verse, what atheist would? I would say it's because it doesn't leave you with an out. No excuse means no excuse. If God exists, you may imagine you have excuses, but according to God you have none.



Nothing I said there was a personal insult, although if you were offended I apologize, however not for stating the truth. If you can look to the other side of the paradigm, you will see that if God exists then everything I said is an absolute fact and not intended to demean you.



You will want to dig much deeper into scripture because your understanding of Christian theology is very narrow. What scripture says is that we have all sinned and fallen short before the glory of God. That's you and me and everyone on the planet. You're not being singled out for being an atheist. Neither does the scripture say you're incapable of being moral. On the contrary it says that you have a God given conscience and that you know right from wrong.

It also says that the wages of sin is death. The difference between us is, I have obeyed God and sought His forgiveness. Now I'm sure you think of yourself as a good person, but what God consider good is moral perfection. Only one man ever lived up to that standard; Jesus Christ. Everything short of moral perfection is not considered good.

How many times do you think you've broken the 10 commandments in your lifetime? Hundreds? Thousands? Have you ever lied stolen hated took Gods name in vain looked with lust etc? Do you realize that makes you a liar, thief, blasphemer, adulterer or murderer at heart? The human standard for goodness is "good enough". In comparison to Hitler, say, you might be looking pretty good. In comparison to God though, you aren't looking good; in fact, what scripture says is that your righteous deeds are like filthy rags before a holy God. Your good behavior isn't going to buy favor with God; rather, it is your sins which have already condemned you. It is only through the righteousness of Jesus Christ that you can be forgiven. It is a free gift, nothing you can earn.

You seem like a nice guy, and very thoughtful. If you put the truth above your preconceived notions and self-interest, and seek God with humility, you will find Him. If you really want to know God, He will reveal Himself to you. The question is, will you serve Him? Would you give your life to God if He did show Himself to you?

I've had enough of your cruelty.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Could be.

The really sad thing, and I don't know what to do about this, is that my struggles with Christianity have left me so harried and jarred that I can't bear being around anything that feels even faintly religious outside of the occasional online discussion (and even that not often). I tried to join a newly forming Unitarian group here in my small town, all agreeable people who were in many ways kindred spirits. I simply could not bear it. I had to get up and leave mid-way thought the third meeting and have not gone back. I find that I have to keep my interactions strictly secular. So, kindred spirits notwithstanding, it is very hard for me to connect with anyone regarding Christianity or my studies.

Are you an empath? I ask because it seems like you might be. My Sister and I are, and it's not always the easiest thing to deal with. We definitely need not only time away from people, but a way of sheltering ourselves from the bombardment of other's thoughts and feelings, to recover. People are prone to thinking and feeling some really nasty things!

Certain activities can get connected to certain feelings (and/or thoughts) that are powerfully negative to us, and it can seem impossible to break that link between the two. God has at times not merely given me permission to be away from church for extended periods, but seen to it that I would be. This may be such a healing interval for you?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Despite the fact that I am (supposedly) so immoral and selfish, stubborn and self-aggrandizing, full of foul language, directionless and violent that I am deserving of being lined up against a wall and shot ...

May I ask you - do you get the impression that those Jesus encountered were left with this self-image?

 

[thesunisout]

I've had enough of your cruelty.

I apologize if I have offended you. What have I said that you think is cruel?

 

[Glass*Soul]

May I ask you - do you get the impression that those Jesus encountered were left with this self-image?

I don't know.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I don't know.

Personally, I'm pretty sure no one was. Look at all the examples of Him interacting with those that weren't His followers, or religious leaders. My point, is that those making you feel the way you described there can be pretty concretely classified as not following Jesus, at least wrt the specifics you mentioned. (Which doesn't mean we should judge them as a whole, either)

 

[oi_antz]

Please don't apologize. I didn't mean it that way. I am also taking my time about replying. I just know that sometimes topics come to a natural ending point. I'm famous for not realizing this and posting on and on and on after everyone else has moved to other discussions. LOL

That's a good question. Whose voice do I listen to?

When I read the gospels, on the most basic level, I'm encountering the writer's voices. The writers in turn have created Jesus' "voice" in a form that I can listen to at a remove. How successful were they in creating this voice so that it connects meaningfully to his Voice (his message as he understood it)? That's actually one of the things I'm trying to suss out as I listen.

Then there's all the other stuff I bring to the table. I also listen to my own experience and judgement, my understanding of history, various cultural influences, a backlog of teachings (the most entrenched of which may not be the best), etc. I could probably make a pretty long list. Some of these things I am listening to I am aware of and some I am not. What's more these are going to jockey in and out of the primary positions depending upon what brought me to the story on any particular occasion. The "voice" I hear is going to be a little different each time, unique to the occasion and unique to my experience.

We all bring things to the table when we try to listen. No one arrives with a totally clean slate. What I don't want to do is arrive with a slate that's been filled out by someone else so that instead of listening I'm ticking off bullet points, which is exactly what I was doing early on when I approached the Bible. How successful have I been in cleaning that slate a little so I can listen? I don't truly know.

Does something emerge from my attempts to listen that is Jesus' Voice? That's the question. All I can do is sit with that question. I'll never be able to answer it, I don't think.

Yes. I appreciate that Christians behave differently from one another. It's just that when I encounter than old Lord, Liar, Lunatic argument I find myself wanting to get at the root of the actual point of it. It's as if I'm being urged to respond, "You're right. I don't believe he was God, so I have to regard him as crazy or evil and I'll now have nothing further to do with him." It just leaves me scratching my head. Is that really the desired reaction?

Also, I want to say that I do appreciate that you are approaching me in a non-judgmental fashion. Thank you.

You know something, Raise The Dead PM'd me about the tone of my rebuttals to you, and I have reflected upon it, some of it must have been forcing you to think defensively. Well I want to say that you aren't my enemy, in fact I have learned from you that someone can choose to follow Christ even though not having faith of God in their life. The most important thing is, that is your comfort zone. I doubt that you would reject Jesus if He popped into your life, so I suppose the only blessing I can give you is the prayer that He will. Please join my heart in prayer to Jesus:

Dear Lord, Christ, Word of God came man:

we marvel at the wonders of your glory, and the world we have in you. We pray for your guidance over our sister Glass Soul, lead her to the green pastures and protect her.

Keep her in good company and bless her thoughts to hone purely into the truth you give her each day.

Help her to appreciate your provisions, love her when she acknowledges you.

May your essence fill her heart with love, peace and truth. May you protect her from those who hate their brother so much they would shoot him.

Bring her into good company.

We pray to God most high in the name of God's Word: Christ. Amen.

 

[Glass*Soul]

You know something, Raise The Dead PM'd me about the tone of my rebuttals to you, and I have reflected upon it, some of it must have been forcing you to think defensively. Well I want to say that you aren't my enemy, in fact I have learned from you that someone can choose to follow Christ even though not having faith of God in their life. The most important thing is, that is your comfort zone. I doubt that you would reject Jesus if He popped into your life, so I suppose the only blessing I can give you is the prayer that He will. Please join my heart in prayer to Jesus:

Dear Lord, Christ, Word of God came man:

we marvel at the wonders of your glory, and the world we have in you. We pray for your guidance over our brother Glass Soul, lead him to the green pastures and protect him.

Keep him in good company and bless his thoughts to hone purely into the truth you give him each day.

Help him to appreciate your provisions, love him when he acknowledges you.

May your essence fill his heart with love, peace and truth. May you protect him from those who hate their brother so much they would shoot him.

Bring him into good company.

We pray to God most high in the name of God's Word: Christ. Amen.

Thank you for the prayer oi antz. I think. I can't join you as it would be dis-ingenuous considering my lack of belief in God, so the invitation to do so has me a little confused.

I'm female, BTW. Not that it matters online, but still...

 

[Glass*Soul]

Are you an empath? I ask because it seems like you might be. My Sister and I are, and it's not always the easiest thing to deal with. We definitely need not only time away from people, but a way of sheltering ourselves from the bombardment of other's thoughts and feelings, to recover. People are prone to thinking and feeling some really nasty things!

Certain activities can get connected to certain feelings (and/or thoughts) that are powerfully negative to us, and it can seem impossible to break that link between the two. God has at times not merely given me permission to be away from church for extended periods, but seen to it that I would be. This may be such a healing interval for you?

I don't tend to think of myself in those terms exactly, but I do find being around even agreeable people too much terribly taxing. This of course meant a lot of guilt and worry in my church life, especially when I was a child.

Anyway, I understand you have sent at least one email in my defense and I do appreciate that. Thank you. This topic sort of went south. I guess I'm done with it at this point.

 

[Glass*Soul]

BTW, I also want to apologize if any of my posts were worded in such a way as to place the theists who participated in this topic on the defensive. To a great extent I want to explore what we hold in common, but from my own perspective. Even in regard to the emails it is not the clash of disagreement that most bothers me, but the loss of commonality that I feel could or should be there. I am an angry person though, and I am sure that comes out in my choice of terms.