Turkish PM to host Islamic prayer service in Hagia Sophia

Joseph Hazen

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Even if St. Peter's Basilica were a mosque and all of Rome were under sharia law, it would have zero true effect on Catholicism or Christianity. The sacraments would still be offered and Christ would still be King.

We're not saying the validity of our religion is somehow negated by one temple being occupied by muslims. We're saying it is an important site for us, historically and culturally. You're not Orthodox, so maybe you don't understand the importance of traditions to us, and shouldn't comment on things you don't understand. You sound like the American government telling Native Americans "It doesn't matter that we peed all over your holy site, you still have others."
 
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Tallguy88

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Joseph Hazen said:
We're not saying the validity of our religion is somehow negated by one temple being occupied by muslims. We're saying it is an important site for us, historically and culturally. You're not Orthodox, so maybe you don't understand the importance of traditions to us, and shouldn't comment on things you don't understand. You sound like the American government telling Native Americans "It doesn't matter that we peed all over your holy site, you still have others."

You got some nerve telling me I don't understand holy things and traditions just because I'm not officially Orthodox. You know I'm an inquirer, right? But I guess that doesn't matter. After all, I'm just "peeing on your holy site".

All I'm saying is that you lost that site (and that city, that empire, and that half of the Mediterranean) over six centuries ago. You can choose to focus on all the injustices you've suffered throughout history, or you can choose to live your faith here and now.
 
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Tallguy88

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InnerPhyre said:
It is possible to both live your faith here and now and still be upset that pagan prayers are being offered once again in one of the greatest churches in the history of Christendom.

Pagan? Way Gurney talks, Orthodox think of Muslims as Christian heretics.
 
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buzuxi02

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Is better for us that it remain a museum. That way its open to the public and tourists viewing the icons and mosaics till in full display. A museum would obviously be a better awareness tool and even an evangelical tool. Conversion back to a mosque means plastering the mosaics back up and visitors only get to hear tne Islamic chanting, good for promoting islam.

Also if is true that the 90 foot iconostasis still exists in some turkish museum, then its possible for some day to lobby to have it reinstalled in its rightful location.
 
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I merely stick to what the blessed saint St. John of Damascus says about Islam. I don't see Islam through the lens of the Catholic catechism that gives so much glory and credit to it.

P.S. I know you're an inquirer, brother. And I'm VERY HAPPY you're here. I'm sure Joseph Hazen does as well. He might not have remembered that you were looking into Orthodoxy. We all have grumpy days! ^_^

Yes, Islam imho is a Christian heresy.

Keep up your inquiries. You're MOST WELCOME here. We won't bite your head off next time, I promise! :p

Pagan? Way Gurney talks, Orthodox think of Muslims as Christian heretics.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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We all have grumpy days! ^_^

Heck, I've had a grumpy WEEK! Just ask certain OBOB and World Religion posters! ^_^

Or even seashale! Still sorry sister, you caught me at a late hour and stressful night knowing I would probably miss DL :sorry: :hug:
 
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Sword of the Lord

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I've had a grumpy year, so to make it worse let me ask, what's the "world religion" forum?

It's a sub forum here on CF. Christianity and World Religions in the official name. It's where all the atheists, Jews, Muslims, pagans, etc go to talk about how much they hate Christianity. Why they come here for it, and why CF made a forum for them, is beyond me.

For example, there was this thread which really upset me and made me quite uncharitable. They get off on this stuff. http://www.christianforums.com/t7819770/
 
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rusmeister

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Even if St. Peter's Basilica were a mosque and all of Rome were under sharia law, it would have zero true effect on Catholicism or Christianity. The sacraments would still be offered and Christ would still be King.

This is true. And I do NOT think you are "peeing" on our holy site. I think you are trying to understand us.

It might help to realize that we DO think Islam to be a Christian heresy. And Catholics do, too - at least, those thoroughly grounded in their tradition.
But the concern I think some of us are trying to express to you is a Christological one: What is this thing about sanctified things that makes a consecrated church a particularly holy thing, and the house of (even fervent) believers in China - not? Should we venerate things that have been sanctified? Is there such a thing as holy relics? And how do they represent (literally re-present) the Incarnation?

If all holy relics were blasted to atoms, God could still raise children of Abraham from stones. But what should our attitude be toward the holy things? Should we not cry out, as people cried out, or should have cried out, at the crucifixion of our Lord? Yes, the Martyrs knew, by faith, that though their bodies were being destroyed, God can and will restore everything. But the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox Church, values holy relics for a reason.


In short, these actions have zero effect on the power of God. But they should not have zero effect on us.
 
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Philothei

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Further evidence that the Turkish government is headed toward a fundamentalist Islamic agenda sticking a knife in the back of the Christian community. Hagia Sophia was an Orthodox place of worship for centuries, then the Muslims came and usurped it. I get that. But surely as a secular government in the times we live in, knowing that there are many Christians and Muslims who claim this place of worship, keep it neutral and devoid of religious observance rather than spitting in the face of the minority who had it first. That great Church was consecrated a temple of Orthodoxy and it ALWAYS WILL BE! Consecrations and blessings don't have a shelf life. They are eternal. I find this potential act by the PM to be vile.
Alas with not wanting to make this political.....supported by the US gov. Erdrogan is as fundamentalist as they come :( sadly.... He is not planning to lead Turkey out of fundamentalism but INTO it.... urgh
And then the Patriarch thinks they will allow us to open the Halki school....:sorry:
 
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Well I just defer to St. John of Damascus, that's all. He lived in the days of early Islam and is a holier man than I. He makes a solid argument.

He and I disagree on that point. Pagan is me being generous.
 
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rusmeister

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Hilaire Belloc was a Catholic, but was a historian without equal in my experience. In his book, "The Great Heresies", he examines how Islam actually IS a heresy.

While we don't take our marching orders from Rome, we do have a common history of a thousand years that is valid for all of us.

"Mohammedanism was a <heresy>: that is the essential point to grasp
before going any further. It began as a heresy, not as a new religion. It
was not a pagan contrast with the Church; it was not an alien enemy. It
was a perversion of Christian doctrine. It vitality and endurance soon
gave it the appearance of a new religion, but those who were contemporary
with its rise saw it for what it was_not a denial, but an adaptation and a
misuse, of the Christian thing."

More:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/homelibr/heresy4.txt
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think in For the Life of the World, Fr Schmemann points out that the reason that we have holy places and things is not to contrast them with the profane, but rather they serve as reminders that all matter and space has been sanctified by Christ. so yeah, Orthodoxy will live on even if Hagia Sophia is turned into a stupa, but we should still seek to preserve our own. God intended that to be a Church, not a mosque or museum or whatever.
 
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Armoured

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Not since Turkey turned it into a museum after the fall of the Ottoman state. In a perfect world, I would want Hagia Sophia to be used as a cathedral once again. I realize this is unrealistic, but in the real world why couldn't it be used as both a Muslim and Christian place of worship? Allow the Muslims a prayer service, and allow the EP to conduct a service.
Um... because they won?
 
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ArmyMatt

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but in the real world why couldn't it be used as both a Muslim and Christian place of worship?

prolly because our use of stuff like icons would not have them very happy, especially on services where our holy days would collide.
 
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Philothei

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? What's your point? That we shouldn't care?
I think he insinuates that the winner takes it all! :D Also the winner writes the history....

But even so how would someone feel if they took one's church and spit on their altar? Also when the altar for modern man seems to be .....the mall :sorry:

Alas in our times we have no sanctity left....when we turn the churches into bars and restaurants.... :( No one understands what is to turn a sacred place into a place where "infidels" are worshiping "another god" putting it politely... :(
 
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