Discussion Truth is Truth

[Farine]

.this is what discipleship is .. for a disciple is a student .one who learnes to become like our master Jesus .

Amen! I did the necessary pondering. So, maybe part of the problem with unreceptive audiences is that they do not consider themselves students. If everyone feels like they are teachers, then no one is really listening. They are simply waiting for their turn to expound what they understand (to be appreciated by others). You see this in Bible Study classes.

And then there is this phenomena called 'Smart Talk' --where people substitute talking for action. They discuss a problem and have the feeling that they have done meaningful action about it just because the problem was aired.

For whatever reason, if one is not focused on learning and yes, Christianity involves skills as well as knowledge, then the process breaks down.

It is when the testing of one's faith reveals that there are needs. In mentioning the mentoring of this one homeless man, the DOING revealed the LACK which inspired the LEARNING. That sent me on various quests to acquire what was missing. The quests included finding teachers for specific things.

Now in practicle speak... That it may benificial to others..it works this way. We were frustrated with not seeing the activated kingdom of God in church or life..

This one phrase sums up the reaction to the Visible Church when it is inert, ineffective. Frustration. It's interesting what God's response to my frustration has been. You go and do. Forget the flock, brooding in the Salt Shaker. And so without a budget, without a buddy, I've been going and doing. The reaction to this has also been interesting. Yes, I find a few other solo acts. The inner fire has caught on in a few places as needs were met.

The battle for souls really is about the truth. The truth comes defended and authenticated with power. What I liked about your teaching the most was the link is preserved between truth and power. The going and doing the truth has the guidance of the LORD and the activity of His Spirit.

 

[Alithis]

You go and do. Forget the flock, brooding in the Salt Shaker.

wow yes .. i had to go through that in the end the lord called me out of that boxed congregational setting .. in the end NONE came with me, they continue on with their Sunday traditions an none are being added to their numbers other then the denominational drift of the mildly offended ,who waft from congregation to congregation seeking to appease their beleaguered conscience with the latest fad or sound .

but thats too long a story..i think its again more beneficial to direct to those who are Going and doing in obedience and who then taught me and now i tech others ,-of course they themselves are not perfect but being perfected but they are simply too busy obeying to be squabbling about things lol.
i will pm you so as not to derail this delightful thread .

 

[Farine]

i had to go through that in the end the lord called me out of that boxed congregational setting .. in the end NONE came with me

That's painful. I'm sorry. Isaiah had this problem too. In Isaiah's commission (chapter 6), God informs His prophet that there won't be any converts from his messages. Isaiah asks "For how long?" God replies .. "until the Lord has sent everyone away.." For all of Isaiah's brilliance, his prophetic vision stretched forward hundreds of years in time, his status (he was often in the courts of Kings) God's statement about the corroded inner life of His people proved true.

So here we are, refreshing each other. You make perfect sense to me. It matches the Modus Operandi that I've seen God use time and time again in my life. There is one question that fits the theme of this discussion.

When Jesus said that new wine had to go into new wineskins, was Jesus talking about His Spirit into the New Creation?

 

[Alithis]

That's painful. I'm sorry. Isaiah had this problem too. In Isaiah's commission (chapter 6), God informs His prophet that there won't be any converts from his messages. Isaiah asks "For how long?" God replies .. "until the Lord has sent everyone away.." For all of Isaiah's brilliance, his prophetic vision stretched forward hundreds of years in time, his status (he was often in the courts of Kings) God's statement about the corroded inner life of His people proved true.

So here we are, refreshing each other. You make perfect sense to me. It matches the Modus Operandi that I've seen God use time and time again in my life. There is one question that fits the theme of this discussion.

When Jesus said that new wine had to go into new wineskins, was Jesus talking about His Spirit into the New Creation?

.. you get that you actualy get it .. thats so awesome

 

[Farine]

.. you get that you actualy get it .. thats so awesome

This is exciting--today there will be new content. Hopefully this enthusiasm carries over Thank you!

 

[Farine]

Joy.

Psalm 30:2-5

O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.​

This seemed to be the best verse to bridge the weeping of affliction and the Dark Night of the Soul with the resolution of spiritual perceptions and comforting. This verse mentions 'Brought up my soul from the grave'.. "should not go down to the pit'.. and that's where affliction and feeling abandoned take us.

Joy is not just the rescuing sensations of resolved situations as good as that can be. There are many testimonies I can provide personally about God addressing circumstances in my life. Joy is spoken about in the Bible as a stand-alone quality.

Psalm 16:10-11

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.​

Galatians 5:22-26

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.​

In both of these references the mention of JOY is not connected to release from trials. It's described as an enduring quality. Dare we hope for joy?

There are clues in these verses that connect us to JOY. Rather than do that basic study, let's go deeper.

Don't mistake pleasures for joy. Pleasure is a short term sensation, unmistakably connected to experience. JOY is a state of being, connected to relationship with GOD.

Do keep the long term perspective. The end of the Bible declares that God wins-- evil, death, suffering, pain are destroyed and our immortality is blessed FOREVER.

There is joy in doing the will of God, even very difficult things. Jesus 'for the joy set before him, endured the cross, scorning its shame. There is joy set before you too.

There is joy in the release of the sinner. The Bible reports Joy in Heaven where the angels celebrate.. and joy on earth as those who were involved experience God's enthusiasm over the return of His Child.

Lastly, there is joy in godly fellowship. Yes, I know sinners can party. That's a pale, hollow version of what the Redeemed of the LORD can do. And the enemy likes to taunt us as being hard on good times. The truth is there is no goodness without GOD. THat includes celebrations. If you haven't experienced the wonderful way holy people interact with each other, it's not to be missed.

God bless you!

 

[Farine]

Intercession.

Those of us who are given the ministry of Intercession can report that we have Joy in it. We also have shed a few tears at different times when the burden of caring was very heavy. There's been exultation too. It's a powerful calling.

Another phrase for Intercession is called 'Standing in the Gap'. The concept that one person's faith and position can be effective for someone else is found in Ezekiel 22:30-31.

“I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found no one. So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger,bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.”​

In this case, God exclaims there was NO intercessor on behalf of the land. There are three positive examples of someone else's faith benefiting another in the Gospels.

Matthew 9:1-2

Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”​

Matthew 15:21-28-- Jesus is on vacation in Tyre and Sidon. While chilling with the disciples, Jesus had this situation. (the rest is the actual quote from the Bible)..

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.”And her daughter was healed at that moment.​

Matthew 8:5-13
When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west,and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.”And his servant was healed at that moment.

Jut take a moment and contemplate that. YOUR FAITH can participate in someone else's circumstances...

 

[Farine]

It's quiet. For Intercessory prayer, part two, that is desirable. This role is generally given to a few. It's assumed that if you are reading this, most likely you are one of those selected people who extends your faith for others.

As someone who extends faith on behalf of others, it's a lot more than typing 'Amen' on a Facebook post. You have to have vision to do that. Speaking what you experience isn't faith. And stating what you want to see is positive thinking. This is having insight into God's intentions and agreeing with Him while aware of what currently exists. You don't ignore facts. Facts aren't the last word, actually.

Alithis posted a video on this discussion about an Australian couple with a newborn daughter who was dying. A key moment from that video was when the father perceived that God was going to do a miracle and heal his baby. You can go into the account of the details and see that moment. THAT's what I'm talking about. It's not the parents pumping up their expectations in a mind-over-matter phenomena. It's individual people perceiving the intentions of God and responding in agreement.

Why does this matter? Because there are people walking around in total sinful behavior that are actually future saints. Massive sinning. Looks grim. God knows ultimately that they are going to accept His Great Exchange: new lives for old. For that kind of assignment, God is picking people who will listen to HIS VERSION over their own inclinations. Guess what, I'm thinking that's you.

You've waded 188 posts into a discussion about how God's Messengers get rejected. Yup. And the thing is that this person who God insists is going to be an awesome saint is currently immersed in their version of themselves. Where do you start? Intercessory prayer. The Apostle Paul agrees. At several points in his letters, Paul either asks for prayer for himself to speak as he should or for receptive people or open doors for the gospel. There are strings to clip. There are spiritual forces to defeat.

And the intercessory saint has an appointed position with God. It's an assigned job. God tells Jeremiah (15:1) that this generation of people is so hardened in their ways that even intercessory prayer by the best would not be sufficient.

Then the Lord said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!

This suggests that many people would be benefited from prayer on their behalf. May God raise up more who stand before Him for others!

 

[Alithis]

i am but beginning to learn that the ministry of reconciliation ..is intercession.. don't have words to explain that yet

 

[Farine]

i am but beginning to learn that the ministry of reconciliation ..is intercession.. don't have words to explain that yet

The only way I can explain it is from experience. In the pressures of life, the Bible suddenly made a lot more sense.

That one can be allowed to intercede is one distinction.
In all the examples from the Gospels, there is a relationship between the one making the request and the one being helped through the request.
There is evidence from the Bible about the power of intercession, especially provided by Moses and Samuel.

Did you have any questions?

 

[Farine]

Today's post has no title.

My kitchen provided me a modern day lesson. For two days, we used the clean dishes until there were no clean dishes left. They were all dirty. And as the saying goes, "Dishes don't clean themselves..." I was faced this morning with a considerable task made easier with machine that mechanically scrubs, rinses and dries dishes.

It was at this point that the Spirit made this a metaphor. All the dishes were dirty was like all of us who have fallen short of the Glory of God. We could not clean ourselves in the sight of a Holy, Perfect God. The cleaning process is disagreeable to us. I imagine that if the dishes were sentient, they would not enjoy or recommend the dishwasher. The water is scalding hot. The process takes a long time, and no dirt of any kind is permitted to remain. In fact, should a stain be present after washing a dish, it goes back into the dishwasher for another cycle.

If I step away from the metaphor for a moment, because the dishes being inanimate have no choice and we do have choice. How many of us stop the cycle half way and declare that we are done. We opt out of the full scrub, the entire rinse.

"Good. I have some truth, some understanding. Now leave me be."

Something has to explain why the church of our day struggles so mightily against a bankrupt culture. In praying for my city, Los Angeles, I have worked in the HR Office of a big hospital, as a receptionist at a major Public Defender Office, as an insurance broker's assistant for Employee Benefits and as a book keeper at a Pension Administrator's firm. Each institution was devoted to bettering people. As a worker in all these places, the politics and selfish behavior threatened to reduce their lofty mission statements to rubble.

The visible church is not immune to this. If we, who know God and have felt the full force of the cleansing of the Word, are not received it is like the dishwasher stopped mid-cycle. Would you eat off of those dishes? Would you serve that to your guests?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That Word has divine power to address a life stained and contorted by sin. You are a spirit. You have a soul. You live in a body. Why do your thoughts and feelings have that much influence? If today, you hear God's voice, harden not your heart...

 

[Farine]

Books.

You know, the problem with reading a book, even the Bible is that accountability seems to be missing. The last sentence of yesterday's post was 'If today, you hear God's voice, harden not your heart..." That was from the Bible. (Psalm 95: 7b-8a) There's a lot of good stuff in books. With the question hanging in the air about accountability, who is to know what you read or what you thought about what was read or what decision you would make after thinking about what you read?

For example, it was a most excellent book that explained one of the ways you can look at the Beatitudes from the Gospels was as progression. Each statement Jesus made 'Blessed are the..' is a rung of a ladder of spiritual growth. Interesting, yes? No one is going to know you read that. You could go right on doing you. Wait. Let me demonstrate.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven..
So you come to God, aware that you need everything and have nothing. Bankrupt, like a debtor before a creditor, the bill is totally cancelled and you are received---as a Child of God.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
This reception brings you in close proximity to the Holiness and the Majesty of God. Just like many others before you recorded in the Good Book, that awareness of your condition compared to His Glory creates grief. You mourn. The Spirit confirms that God is indeed Your Father. God comes to you in your grief with His Presence to console you.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
This confirmation as God as Father begins a conversation where (usually) portions of your life are shared with Him. His great wisdom and care start transforming those areas you offer up. The enthusiasm over a well-ordered response makes us more eager to share other areas of our lives with God. Over time, one is meek. This earth was created for His Children.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
This sharing of one's life with God opens so many wonderful possibilities that suddenly one wonders what else are they missing? The Bible is now filled with promises that can be received. Sermons and worship that have the touch of His Spirit are a delight. The life is overflowing with gratitude for the changes that have been made within.

Blessed are the merciful, for they will obtain mercy.
Here is probably the first rung of transformation that really can be experienced from someone on the outside. Most of the other steps are known mostly to the one being changed. Here we see that all those inner changes have an outer result. Mercy. One can debate how and when and who will show mercy to the merciful. God certainly, for Jesus declared that the measure we use on others will be used on us. Probably other people too. In any case, here the mad grab for self has ended.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
All the trouble of contending with a divided, miserable heart can only be justified with one reason.. seeing God. No other reason is enough. To this point there has been awareness of total lack before God, mourning, surrender.. etc. Now the Spirit has breathed on this heart and it is pure. This rung of spiritual life is a synergistic, artistic collaboration between GOd and the person. Both the person and the life being lived are works of art in the Lord. You can see God in the person's inner life as well as the choices he or she makes.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God... I wish I understood this step more. This rung is beyond my current understanding. There's more beyond it.. persecution for Jesus and that probably is linked to the great reflection of Light shown from such a person. I'm not there yet.

To encounter this concept, one would have had to read the book. Then one would have to delve into the choices whether there is validity in these ideas or not. Then ask the fateful question--where am I on this ladder? Have I spent ten years on the second rung? "Blessed are those who mourn.." You and I have bumped into these questions today. Let books accompany you on this journey of life. Let good books be good friends who quietly lift you and your thoughts up. May God touch your heart and mind today in Christ Jesus. Amen.

 

[unfinishedclay]

In both of these references the mention of JOY is not connected to release from trials. It's described as an enduring quality. Dare we hope for joy?

Here is where I often get stuck. Not all the time - but too often. I've learned that we are to have joy even through trials. And I believe this last question you're bringing up is what can help me understand where I get stuck: Am I HOPING for joy? And from there, praying for it? I can't remember just seeking the Lord for the enduring joy in this way.

 

[Farine]

Here is where I often get stuck. Not all the time - but too often. I've learned that we are to have joy even through trials. And I believe this last question you're bringing up is what can help me understand where I get stuck: Am I HOPING for joy? And from there, praying for it? I can't remember just seeking the Lord for the enduring joy in this way.

If you look through the animal kingdom, there's some joy to be seen out there! This one picture really grabbed my attention. If GOD gifted the animals with the ability to be blessed, surely we should have joy too!

Oh, and I really liked this one dog picture (Honorable mention).

I've had to pray about joy recently. This is an issue....

 

[Alithis]

Joy .. love the topic
who wouldnt haha.

What i have observed of joy is true Joy in the lord is entwined in true identity in Christ ..the new creature we now are being IN him and he IN us .many trials are made worse by our lack of surrender to the truth that we are in him and he in us .
it is in surrender that rest is found it is in rest that joy is present ,joy ,like the spirit of God , does not leave us .it is simply increased or decreased in our awareness of it . cleared or blurred by the soulish emotions being allowed to much sway .
As opposed to happiness which comes and goes rising and falling on the tide of emotions (this is not grammatically correct but just example ) i like to say happiness is too dependent upon "what is presently happening " and JOY is ever present due to the ever present Holy Spirit in us .thus when we renew our mind in any given circumstance, being consistently repentant (turning our thoughts to agree with god )we find he is joyfully there with and in us .then we can begin to see that as we surrender the trials he leads us through are indeed joyous to the building of faith and his eternal character in us .transforming us to be like him.
many other trials people go through are not trails from the lord but situations wrought upon ourselves because we are not surrendered in our will to the spirit of god within us and the flesh strives against the spirit of god and it is that struggle itself which is causing one to feel as if they are in a trail but thats not the trials the Scripture speaks of .. that is simple a struggle of the flesh to resurrect dominion over the spirit but it shall NOT have dominion-for it is buried with Christ into his death. .. So, I observe ,that JOY is ever present and enjoyed upon surrendering to the living eternal spirit of god who indwells me .
to truly comprehend this (or begin to ) one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit and that is not an automatic happening when one first believes, but a specific event (do not think that has to mean it is a showy or spectacular event but its evidenced by speaking in tongues )

 

[unfinishedclay]

Oh, and I really liked this one dog picture (Honorable mention).

LOL. Okay. You did get a good laugh out of me. Cute and funny!

 

[unfinishedclay]

Those of us who are given the ministry of Intercession can report that we have Joy in it. We also have shed a few tears at different times when the burden of caring was very heavy. There's been exultation too. It's a powerful calling.

Amen. Not everyone is called to the ministry of intercession. During times when I need prayer, I tend to not ask for prayer from too many people for this reason. Intercessors have qualities that are needed:
1. understanding (as Proverbs tells us in all our getting to get an understanding);
2. compassion (which was Jesus' approach many times with those oppressed, possessed, dead, grieved, and other issues as He was acquainted with grief);
3. Christlikeness in ways that are often overlooked - like when He wept before raising Lazarus from the dead;
4. (similarly to Jesus weeping) adherent to Paul's instruction that we "weep with those who weep/rejoice with those who rejoice";
5. humility to the point of being able to identify with those needing help when there's opportunity to let the knowledge be puffed up. (With humility, an intercessor's love edifies.)

Thanks for being an intercessor, Sis. It has changed so much through Christ using you. And I continue to thank Him for you.

 

[Farine]

What i have observed of joy is true Joy in the lord is entwined in true identity in Christ

This one sentence is primary and what you add to 'true identity' in your post is supporting evidence for that. For those who are reading, I wanted to add some examples and show this isn't so abstract that it is out of reach.

By True identity, I BELIEVE.. I UNDERSTAND you to mean the whole person. The entire being. Not excluding any part or keeping any portion back from the transformation. This whole person comes through with phrases 'renew our mind', 'surrendered in our will to the spirit of god', avoiding 'soulish emotions being allowed to much sway' and our priorities being focused on 'building of faith and his eternal character in us'. The totality of all these phrases is addition. EVERYTHING.

A entire day's topic could be the tendency to give a portion of one's life to God and not the whole. I'm going to use A.W. Tozer's words from his book "The Pursuit of God"

The way to deeper knowledge of God is through the lonely valleys of soul-poverty and abnegation of all things. The blessed ones who possess the Kingdom are they who have repudiated every external thing and have rooted from their hearts all sense of possessing. They are “poor in spirit.” They have reached an inward state paralleling the outward circumstances of the common beggar in the streets of Jerusalem; that is what the word “poor” as Christ used it actually means. These blessed poor are no longer slaves to the tyranny of things. They have broken the yoke of the oppressor; and this they have done not by fighting but by surrendering. Though free from all sense of possessing, they yet possess all things. “Theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Let me exhort you to take this seriously. It is not to be understood as mere Bible teaching to be stored away in the mind along with an inert mass of other doctrines. It is a marker on the road to greener pastures, a path chiseled against the steep sides of the mount of God.​

The affections are to be set on things above. That makes sense to us on one level. In practice, it's much harder to do. It's hard to love what you can't perceive. It's my humble opinion that this one distinction -perception- is making the difference between those who are effective in their spiritual walk and those who wonder what's the point of all this??!!

Paul makes it clear that you are a different person after God remakes you. First of all, there is Paul's own life. He's breathing threats and dragging Christians out of synagogues and consents to Stephen's murder in early Acts. Then Saul becomes Paul through a dramatic encounter with Jesus who commissions him to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. That's a total, complete change. Paul continues to write, as does Peter and James about this remaking. All of these men experienced what they expect us to have.

Paul is more useful because he goes deeper into the process. It involves being given spiritual gifts... in particular, the spirit of wisdom and revelation (Eph 1:17). Perception is deeply tied to being woken up from the lower, natural life. Which leads one to a very interesting verse.. (Eph. 5:14) This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Even Revelation talks about overcoming. This word is a fighting word. What fight? You said it...

"that is simple a struggle of the flesh to resurrect dominion over the spirit but it shall NOT have dominion-for it is buried with Christ into his death. "

Jesus told Nicodemus (John 3) about the distinctions between spirit and flesh.. and that there were 'heavenly things' that Jesus wanted to talk about. I mentioned an example at the start of this response.

I crashed my life in my early twenties from marrying an abusive man. That was almost thirty years ago. I was with him ten years total time between courtship and marriage. That means I have been out of that environment twenty years. At the point I permanently separated from him, my life was shattered. My inner, thought life was ruined along with a broken heart. There are many people, men and women, who have been shipwrecked this way. My eyes, keen from personal tragedy spot other survivors, usually without verbal exchange from body language alone. This could have been my epitaph of why my life never did or resulted in anything important.

God met me in this situation through a variety of ways. I was remade. I'll not exhaust your patience here. I'm not the same person. Then what Paul was writing about wasn't mysterious at all to me. It was the use of all manners of literary devices to explain a very real, concrete process of taking a life from a stuck, unproductive state and setting it free to be blessed and in deep fellowship with its Creator to do things like Jesus did.

Not everyone has to be shattered like I was to appreciate being set free to be blessed and in deep fellowship. For me, surviving meant grabbing ahold of the truth that God really was speaking and interacting with me through His Servants.. through the promises of the Bible.. and some deeply personal, one-on-one experiences I had with Him. The whole package of renewal was accepting that this is REAL. The ruin of my former life certainly was real. And the remaking was real. It's not philosophy. It's not mind over matter. It's relationship.

And somewhere in the acceptance was the gifts of perception. I understand when GOD is interacting with me. I can tell when something I am reading or listening to or interacting with is FROM HIM. There's a whole new set of senses that I now use. INSIGHT.. IN SEEING.. Get it? So if you aren't perceiving things and this whole topic seems pie-in-the-sky, speak up! You are meant to have more than the five senses you get as basic life on earth.

 

[Farine]

Intercessors have qualities that are needed:
1. understanding (as Proverbs tells us in all our getting to get an understanding);
2. compassion (which was Jesus' approach many times with those oppressed, possessed, dead, grieved, and other issues as He was acquainted with grief);
3. Christlikeness in ways that are often overlooked - like when He wept before raising Lazarus from the dead;
4. (similarly to Jesus weeping) adherent to Paul's instruction that we "weep with those who weep/rejoice with those who rejoice";
5. humility to the point of being able to identify with those needing help when there's opportunity to let the knowledge be puffed up. (With humility, an intercessor's love edifies.)

What a great teaching post! I really loved it! You have the Bible references that make this list of qualities concise and powerful.

In addition to appreciating your contribution, I wanted to point to HOW an intercessor gets these qualities. This sort of explains why there isn't an intercessor on every street corner.

There are tests to be passed. These are not trivial tests. How does one be certified humble? Oh yeah, one is tested for pride. I mentioned Moses as an Intercessor from God's report to Jeremiah. This is what is said about Moses as an aside in Numbers 12:3.

(Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

It literally puts this compliment to Moses in parenthesis. A lot of Moses' life is on display in the Old Testament. Somewhere in the forty years of living as a Shepherd in Midian, Moses passed this test.

We could go through the tests for generosity of spirit, wisdom, compassion either expressing it as a search for the positive quality or the repudiation of its associated vice. Let's go deeper.

Why would God vet, deeply, intensely examine the life of a possible intercessor? Because of the power God invests in that life. There's a tremendous example of God's supernatural power revealed through the life of Samuel.. the other intercessor God mentions to Jeremiah.

1 Samuel 7:3-13. Here are the highlights. All Israel returns back to God, but their faith is weak. So the moment that their traditional enemies, the Philistines, hear that Israel has gone back to worshiping God, they attack. Samuel knows they don't have the inner strength to believe, so he intercedes for them (v. 9). Along with the military victory, (v. 10-11) comes an unexpected result. (v. 13b) "Throughout Samuel’s lifetime, the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines. "

That investment of power is why clicking like or typing 'amen' on a facebook post is not intercession.

There is a real dialogue that happens between the intercessor and God. You see that in Genesis with Abraham discussing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the New Testament, you see that as Jesus informs Simon about to deny him three times that 'I have prayed for you.. when you have turned.. " There was a dialogue that Jesus had with His Father about Simon about to fully experience being Peter.

Without that, intercession doesn't happen. Now dialogue can take many forms. I really loved the video about Nathaniel and his wife. [Readers' Note: The video can be seen in post 137.] This couple intercedes for the life of their baby. God's response is that the wife sees Jesus walk over to their child and touch her. That's communication. That's an essential part of this. Somehow God has to break through the back-and-forth nature of circumstances to explain His intentions for the matter at hand.

The power in an Intercessor's life is relational and it is connected to their assignment. I could be curious about a lot of people's lives. But if God hasn't assigned them to me, idle curiosity is not supported. There is provision and power and a lot of other help for people God has assigned to me. Words of Knowledge. Authentication as being from God, for example, comes to mind. Everyone else sees a middle-aged housewife. /shrug. That's okay.

You mentioned Christlikeness in ways that are often overlooked. That did strike a chord. here are a couple of examples.

Dependency on God. Jesus mentioned He did not do or say things of Himself, but only what He was directed by His Father in Heaven.

Seeing people differently than nearly everybody else. Here are a couple of examples from the Bible. If we saw Moses five minutes before the burning bush experience, we would have seen a blue collar fellow surrounded by sheep. If we saw Simon five minutes before the great catch of fish, we would have seen another everyday guy with rough calloused hands pulling on some rope or doing something equally unimpressive. Take any one of the disciples you like. Their 'before' picture did not register on their friends, family or anyone else as someone of note. It takes revelation, God's sneak peak, to understand who you are really helping or praying for.

 

[unfinishedclay]

By True identity, I BELIEVE.. I UNDERSTAND you to mean the whole person. The entire being. Not excluding any part or keeping any portion back from the transformation. This whole person comes through with phrases 'renew our mind', 'surrendered in our will to the spirit of god', avoiding 'soulish emotions being allowed to much sway' and our priorities being focused on 'building of faith and his eternal character in us'. The totality of all these phrases is addition. EVERYTHING.

The "entire being" as mentioned in the quote, if I'm interpreting correctly what y'all are saying, is referring to someone who is actually a new creature in Christ.

In Christ, we have 9 fruits of the Spirit. That would include JOY. It's the joy of our salvation and the joy of Who Christ is. This doesn't mean we're never faced with incredible grief or emotional pain - from which we trust the Lord to restore us to a place of full joy where we can actually operate in it so much to the point of conveying it. (I believe many times, God takes the time to comfort us if we're in grief before we come to that place and believe Matthew 5 "Blessed are you who mourn, for you shall be comforted" does not exclude these moments even though there are other seasons where there's mourning to be comforted by Him.) I hope that makes sense.

Because He does bottle our tears and because He (being better to us than earthly fathers who comfort their children), God takes the time to put His arms around us and lets us experience His comfort as we go through trials that sometimes impose extreme sadness on us. During these times, we can understand firsthand what the Psalm meant when it says "He bottles our tears." This experience becomes a personal testimony to help others, in fact.

As a surrendered believer in Jesus Christ, we are able to convey our joy to other believers (through speaking ministry, corporate praise, intercessory prayer, comfort, laying on of hands, encouragement, brotherly fellowship of 2-more, and any other way that I don't know) by understanding our roles with the meekness it takes to convey joy. Without using as an example my own need, which has been very fulfilled, where I've been hurt by adultery, I use a sister in Christ who faced circumstantial depression from Hurricane Katrina and the state of Texas having taken her children from her before she surrendered her life to Christ.

During Sunday Schools, she often tearfully told her story to many in our women's class back in 2011, I think it was. She was grateful for her salvation and often displayed joy. But her children were sudden gone not long after coming to Texas from Katrina disaster that changed the world she knew. Most knew her problems that weighed on her and many helped her in a number of ways, beginning with leadership from what I could see.

Well, one elderly lady whom I did not know saw me trying to encourage this distressed sister after Sunday School class. Once I was alone, the elderly woman approached me out of nowhere with this smile on her face. She said to me, "Help her out." I can't remember her saying anything else. All I can remember is feeling so moved within my spirit to respond with great peace, "Okay."

I knew I could not relate to this Katrina evacuee who had lost her children to the system. From what I could hear, she was sooo needy and lived in government projects that i could not relate to living in. But that elderly woman's gentle little command to me, even though I was a stranger to her yet sister in the Lord, was a challenge that I knew placed me on a journey where the Lord was going to teach both me and my new friend from New Orleans' Katrina His ways, His will, and how to be led by Him (for her) and further led by Him (for me).

It was during that time (maybe a little before or a little afterward) when I learned - certainly from spending much time with this sister in her grief the following verse:

Galatians 6:1-2
My brothers, if any of you be overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourselves, lest you also be tempted. Bear one another burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Having joy in the Lord Who saved Her and was continually revealing Himself to her, she was so challenged in getting past that grief. Those sisters at church taught me the patience (a fruit of the Spirit) it took to help as well as minister to this very high-maintenance sister. She needed full joy in the midst of her circumstances. That a full community of Christian sisters to teach her the Word and wisdom that could complete her joy - while ministering to her physical needs so that she wouldn't further be distressed. An amazing challenge. A life-changing challenge. A humbling challenge. And a challenge that compelled sisters even more to go to the Lord in earnest prayer for another's full joy among other needs.

I can't tell you how easy it was to criticize her. And often, I found myself getting frustrated to the point of almost doing that for a number of reasons. Her understanding of the wisdom of living required soooo much explaining and us praying for wisdom to convey that. And if she didn't grasp that basic wisdom, her mindset (needing the transformation that any other believer needs if we're humble enough to identify with her very need for Christ's revelation) would be attacked with further grief in the absence of 4 children whom she really loved and a shattered world left under the floods of New Orleans. Furthermore, she was often isolated in her current residential environment being cut off from relatives whom she loved.

Having said that, conveying joy rarely boils down to the delivery of a few words. It sometimes requires discipling outside the comforts of what we're used to. Farine, I've been amazed by your experience in that.