Transsexuals

[artybloke]

Like homosexuality, it is the rejection of God's plan for mankind.

I love the way these people think God has a plan. Personally, I've always thought of God as a Holy Saxaphone player, playing an eternal solo, making it up as he goes along.

Grooovy.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I love the way these people think God has a plan. Personally, I've always thought of God as a Holy Saxaphone player, playing an eternal solo, making it up as he goes along.

Grooovy.

Oooh, the sax sends shivers down my spine. What a beautiful picture you paint, arty.

 

[kdet]

I love the way these people think God has a plan. Personally, I've always thought of God as a Holy Saxaphone player, playing an eternal solo, making it up as he goes along.

Grooovy.

Any person who reads their Bible knows that God's has a plan for all of us. He has plans for us as individuals and He has plans for mankind in general.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Any person who reads their Bible knows that God's has a plan for all of us. He has plans for us as individuals and He has plans for mankind in general.

On what do you base that assumption, kdet? I read my Bible and I don't know that God has a plan for me in the normal sense of the word. I know a lot of people who read their Bibles and don't think God has an exact plan for them or anyone else, and they are not necessarily liberal and they do know their Bibles well.

I know some Christians believe God has a precise plan for everyone but that view isn't held by all Christians by a long chalk.

Karin

 

[kdet]

On what do you base that assumption, kdet? I read my Bible and I don't know that God has a plan for me in the normal sense of the word. I know a lot of people who read their Bibles and don't think God has an exact plan for them or anyone else, and they are not necessarily liberal and they do know their Bibles well.

I know some Christians believe God has a precise plan for everyone but that view isn't held by all Christians by a long chalk.

Karin

Well, how can you NOT know God has a plan for you? The plan is to become more like Jesus every day. His plan for us is to grow and learn and to do His will daily.

Ephesians, 1:3-4.

“Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him.”
​

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Well, how can you NOT know God has a plan for you? The plan is to become more like Jesus every day. His plan for us is to grow and learn and to do His will daily.

Ephesians, 1:3-4.

“Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him.”


​

I agree that God wants us to become more like Jesus, but I wouldn't call it a plan as such. Some people seem to think God paints our lives with a colour by numbers set and speak of that as God's plan for our lives. I don't agree with that view.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi artybloke and Treasure the Questions,



There are plenty of things in life to cause anguish. As to this issue, the medical profession recognise both those whose ‘heads are screaming’ in other words disturbed by their gender/sex mismatch and those who can simply be councelled. Then of course there is the Holy Spirit to change us or help us overcome. So please, lets get real and show some understanding from both a spiritual and a medical position rather than just an emotional one.



I don’t understand the colour by numbers analogy but I do understand Ephesians, 1:3-4.

 

[RadG]

On what do you base that assumption, kdet? I read my Bible and I don't know that God has a plan for me in the normal sense of the word. I know a lot of people who read their Bibles and don't think God has an exact plan for them or anyone else, and they are not necessarily liberal and they do know their Bibles well.

I know some Christians believe God has a precise plan for everyone but that view isn't held by all Christians by a long chalk.

Karin

I suggest reading "The Purpose Driven Life".

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I suggest reading "The Purpose Driven Life".

Been there, done that. Found it rather trite and most unhelpful. Prefer Living on Purpose http://www.msainfo.org/ressubr.asp?sub=44&select=91&offset=6&review=139

Karin

 

[WashedClean]

Oprah has a show on this right now. There are children who want to be a different sex. It's so sad and I really feel terrible for them, especially the parents.

Oprah was saying that she had a half brother who died of AIDS a few years ago. She lived with him for about 5 years growing up and he always wanted to be a girl. He turned out to be homosexual, not transgendered.

There is a difference between a hermaphrodite who may have been raised the "wrong" sex and someone who is just confused. But at the same time I feel such compassion for these people. It must be a terrible feeling to hate your body/sex organs because it's not matching what's in your head. I do feel, like JohnnyV said, that if they had a true relationship with Jesus Christ, he could heal them.

Just my opinion. You don't have to agree!

 

[TwinCrier]

If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give them no warning, or speak to warn the wicked from their wicked way, in order to save their life, those wicked persons shall die for their iniquity; but their blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and they do not turn from their wickedness, or from their wicked way, they shall die for their iniquity; but you will have saved your life. Ezekiel 3:18-19

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

I agree that God wants us to become more like Jesus, but I wouldn't call it a plan as such. Some people seem to think God paints our lives with a colour by numbers set and speak of that as God's plan for our lives. I don't agree with that view.

Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Ephesians 1:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,"



Sorry, but it is very difficult debating with you. In the Bible it says 'plan'. You and some others may not understand it as plan, but thats what it says. I also agree that Jesus wants us to become more like Him, but it doesnt mean God doesnt have a plan. What is this ‘colour by numbers.’ Idea? The link you gave isnt bad, it also links to 24/7 prayer, good stuff, but you seem to outright reject every link given to you and be very intolerant of others views and links. That is not what I have heard John Bell preach.

 

[artybloke]

In the Bible it says 'plan'.

Yes, but there's plans and plans. There's every single moment planned out for you in great detail, and there's the way that a jazz musician can take a simple tune like "Someday My Prince Will Come" or "My Favourite Things" and improvise around a very basic melody.

I prefer to think of God as more John Coltraneish. There's playing the notes, and then there's playing with the notes.

 

[ahab]

Artybloke,

Like homosexuality, it is the rejection of God's plan for mankind.

Jesus refers to the scripture Genesis 2, that God could not find a companion for man so that He made woman for man and that “

in the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."



Sorry but to me it just sounds more like a plan than a saxophone tune or a colour.



Besides kdet correctly understood from scripture that God has plans for us, and in response to Treasure the Questions asking “On what do you base that assumption, kdet? I read my Bible and I don't know that God has a plan for me in the normal sense of the word.” He gave the scripture from the Bible that he based his assumption on.

Anyway, we can re write that sentence if you wish…

homosexuality, it is the rejection of God's purpose/reason for mankind.

 

[artybloke]

homosexuality, it is the rejection of God's purpose/reason for mankind.

First of all, I don't think that Genesis 2 has anything to do with homosexuality, the myth of Adam and Eve has no bearing on one's sexuality. Secondly, nobody who is homosexual rejects anything. You're born gay or straight, and you can't reject what you can't have.

Seems to me that if some people are born gay it's God's plan for some people to be gay. And all the evidence we have at the moment points to that.

And I utterly reject (and really think heretical) a literalistic and legalistic interpretation of scripture. That's Pharaisism, pure and simple.

 

[ahab]

Artybloke,

First of all, I don't think that Genesis 2 has anything to do with homosexuality

I agree that is exactly the point I am making. It has nothing to do with homosexuality. Nor has it anything to do with being celibate by birth or bisexual or any other physical condition by birth. It is about God’s purpose or reason in creation for man and woman in faithful marriage ‘It does what it says on the tin’

Secondly, nobody who is homosexual rejects anything. You're born gay or straight, and you can't reject what you can't have.

We can talk about whether we are born straight or gay from a medical or theological position if you wish but I am asking you to address what Jesus says about Genesis 2 and God’s reason for creating man and woman.

Seems to me that if some people are born gay it's God's plan for some people to be gay. And all the evidence we have at the moment points to that.

Well if you read what Jesus says, some are born eunuchs but God’s purpose in creation was for man and woman to be united faithfully in marriage, some choose eunuch or celibate for Kingdom purposes regardless of how they are born. Jesus lays out the options and they found it hard teaching then; as we still do it seems with all the heterosexual promiscuity.

And I utterly reject (and really think heretical) a literalistic and legalistic interpretation of scripture. That's Pharaisism, pure and simple.

How come? The Pharisees rejected what Jesus said and I am pointing out to you what Jesus said. Its what Jesus said that wont address, just like the Pharisees.



IMO what you are doing is ignoring what is countenanced and promoting something that isn’t countenanced and which includes celebrating a sin that is condemned.

 

[JohnnyV]

Apparently you can buy a similar product in the US to change you into a transexual if you so wish! It appears there is some sort of advertising campaign to promote it.

There is a product, its called SURGERY and the AD campaign is the talk shows, psycho-therapists and pop culture.

 

[artybloke]

It is about God’s purpose or reason in creation for man and woman in faithful

No it is not. This is pure, unadulterated eisegetic garbage.

We can talk about whether we are born straight or gay from a medical or theological position if you wish but I am asking you to address what Jesus says about Genesis 2 and God’s reason for creating man and woman.

What Jesus said (I presume you#re refering to Matt. 19 was in answer to a specific question regarding divorce. One of the signs of legalism (as shown by the Pharisees) is that a specific answer to a specific question is turned by people in the future into a universal law. No amount of special pleading and eisegesis turns Matt.19 into an injunction for all people in all times.

Well if you read what Jesus says, some are born eunuchs but God’s purpose in creation was for man and woman to be united faithfully in marriage, some choose eunuch or celibate for Kingdom purposes regardless of how they are born.

So if you're born with, say, homosexuality, you're supposed to pretend that your straight in order to conform to this Pharaiscal reading of the Bible? So you're supposed to live a lie for the rest of your life, so that you can satisfy some ancient Hebrew ritual shibboleth that Christ told us we were free to ignore? This from the man who broke the Sabbath law and refused to condemn an adulteress? I don't think so.

So maybe God's purpose is for everybody to be straight, so what anyway? Maybe he wants everybody to be not born with congenital heart disease or cystic fibrosis. But people are, and they get on with their lives. If he was so bothered about it, he would have arranged evolution in such a way that it wouldn't occur in any species. As it occurs throughout the natural world, (from penguins to monkeys) he can't be that bothered.

The sign of a Pharisee is that he/she creates laws where there aren't any. He/she tries to rule not only their own lives but the lives of other people. If you wish to keep the Levitical laws (all 613 of them) that's entirely up to you; but I repudiate your right to tell me, my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ, by transgendered brothers and sisters in Christ, my straight but divorced brothers and sisters in Christ, and anyone else what to do with their lives. You are not my authority, Christ is.

 

[ahab]

Hi artybloke,



We are going round in circles again, which is perhaps mostly my fault. Its just that I personally believe this is one of the main issue of deception during these present times.



However Jesus refers to Genesis 2, or the “pure, unadulterated eisegetic garbage” as you call it, nevertheless He does refer to it. He says “have you not read”



In Matt 19 (and Mark 10) Jesus was questioned about divorce not about God’s purpose in creation, nevertheless Jesus refers the Pharisees to God’s purpose in creation to answer the question about divorce. One could therefore apply it to celibates and homosexuals and heterosexuals. Besides it was about a man divorcing a woman not about a man divorcing another man. As to all times, If God’s purpose or reason in creation was in creation and didn’t change between creation and the time of Jesus, I fail to see how it is supposed to change to suit a few people 2000 odd years later. Creation is still at the time of creation. No amount of your special pleading and eisegesis can change creation or what Jesus is reported as saying.

So if you're born with, say, homosexuality, you're supposed to pretend that your straight in order to conform to this Pharaiscal reading of the Bible?

What Pharasical reading? It was Jesus who affirms God’s purpose in creation. We are supposed to be followers and overcomers, not discontented people who change God's will and purpose according to how we feel.

So you're supposed to live a lie for the rest of your life,

No, you are supposed to not live a lie, but live in the truth of Jesus Christ and His ways. You seem to be saying that living for same-sex sex is the truth and what the scriptures say is a lie. That is surely like me saying because I have such strong urges to have sex with lots of women so adultery must be a lie.

so that you can satisfy some ancient Hebrew ritual shibboleth that Christ told us we were free to ignore?

Where did he say this and tell us that we were free to ignore God’s reason in creation Matt 19, Mark 10, Genesis 2, Eph 5:31? Where did Paul tell us that we were free to have same-sex sex?

So maybe God's purpose is for everybody to be straight, so what anyway?

Well maybe it is and maybe it isnt, but I dont see how we can say 'so what' if we are looking to try and please God .

By thye way, without going into the problems of evolution, neither do animals all have sex within faithful relationships, and yet Jesus asks us to be faithful.

The sign of a Pharisee is that he/she creates laws where there aren't any.

Any examples of where they did this? Not sure you are right there either. The Pharisees at the time of Jesus studied the scriptures and the law and the prophets diligently, they thought they were experts but Jesus told them they didn’t know the scriptures or the power of God.

If you wish to keep the Levitical laws (all 613 of them) that's entirely up to you;

No, why do you suggest that? I want to obey Jesus as He fulfilled the law and the prophets.

You are not my authority, Christ is.

Absolutely, but the words of Christ and His New Testament disciples is what I am trying to debate with you.

 

[artybloke]

Its just that I personally believe this is one of the main issue of deception during these present times.

So do I. Pharasiasm is rampant in the fundamentalist church.

Any examples of where they did this?

By trying to apply selected bits of the Levitical law to the lives of those people you personally don't like, that's what you're doing. Christ repudiated the Levitical laws.

One could therefore apply it to celibates and homosexuals and heterosexuals.

One could if one wished to find an excuse to tell other people how to live their lives. One could if one wished to be legalistic.

what the scriptures say

What you say the scriptures say. I say the scriptures do not say what your eisegesis says, and that you are using the scriptures to justify your own prejudice. You should stop doing that.

Absolutely, but the words of Christ and His New Testament disciples is what I am trying to debate with you.

No it's not. It's your legalistic interpretation of those words that is at issue, and you, in common with all fundamentalist legalists, think I should just roll over and agree with you. Well, I won't. Your interpretation is legalist and Pharasaical.