Transgender/sex-change 'not valid'

Status
Not open for further replies.

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,496
11,193
✟213,086.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I saw on a TV talk show a long time ago a homosexual man who thought he wanted a sex change to a woman. He did the operation and came onto the show smiling and dancing. But then the show followed up on him, and he was miserable and regretted the mutilation of his genitals.

How sad when people are confused about their gender identity. It's especially shameful that society is encouraging this confusion even with young children. I'm saying this because I saw a TV show once hosted by Barbara Walters where she was telling parents that their young children might want to have a sex change operation.

Children go through all kinds of temporary phases, so it would be tragic if a parent over-reacted and gave their child a sex change operation and then later the child realized that he or she was only going through a temporary phase.

I think what the world needs now is love but also a return to good old-fashioned common sense.
 
Upvote 0

stephenc

Euphemystic
Nov 19, 2006
5,045
312
✟21,782.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's not "all in the head". Not always.

There is an (albeit rare) condition known as AIS (androgen insentitivity syndrome). You can Google it for details; but basically it means an XY individual (a boy) is born with cells that do not respond to the male sex hormone "his" body produces. There are both partial and complete forms of this condition; in the "complete form" the individual will be born with female traits and develop, though not quite utterley, along female lines.

Then there is a condition which is not rare, and that is having multiple sex chromosomes. There are very many boys who are born with the combination XXY, which means they have two "female" sex chromosomes for their one "male" chromosomes, instead of the usual one of each (XY). This is known as Klinefelter's syndrome; and expert opinion is divided as to whether it gives an increased psychological gender confusion. It certainly causes physical symptoms of "feminization"; broad hips, beardlessness, etc. Also certain memory/learning problems. With some it causes acute gender confusion already early; with others not ever. Syndromes often work differently in different people. There are extreme cases; there is the famous "Bond girl" Caroline Cossey...she was a XXXY. That is, a "guy" with 3 times the number of female sex chromosomes guys usually have.

(Check the "Snopes" on Caroline Cossey: http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/bondgirl.asp)

I wonder if these cases were taken into consideration? Now, a cardinal or bishop or whoever calls the shots on these issues on our behalf, being a decent human being, would probably say "oh, well, that's medical/biological, and therefore an extreme case...", but then one might go on to speculate, because it's appears to be a sliding scale.

When is a medical condition not "medical" enough, and why is a "mere" psychological/psychiatric condition not medical?

(FTR: I teach Human Biology)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sianelle

Sister Annie
Aug 23, 2008
535
114
Hauraki Plains New Zealand.
✟8,777.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I remember reading Caroline Cossey's autobiography some years ago. It is worth hunting out, though it might be hard to find now. Intersexuals are another group which are often completely misunderstood and surgically messed with by well meaning medical professionals. When I was still working as a social worker I chanced to meet a person of around my own age who had been born a complete Hermaphrodite, but had been surgically 'rebuilt' as a woman. Her parents had wanted her to be a boy and hormone therapy had been started to this end, but it wasn't until she ran away in protest at what was being done to her that she was left in peace to make her own decision. She was a really interesting person and drove a large truck and trailer unit for a Milk processing company. When she first started driving trucks other male truck drivers in the company gave her stick because they though she was Transgender which of course she wasn't. I thought that was really sad.

I seriously cannot believe that any therapist would recommend that a child be given hormone therapy or be placed into a gender reassignment program. Alright, - any young person with a genuine and profound gender diaspora might be glad of it, - but it is just too difficult to tell if it is just a 'blip' in their development that they might grow out of, or if it really is a profound sense of being born into the wrong body.
It is really difficult to know how it should be best approached. Tales from the TG community of doctors and specialists in private practice milking TG folk dry of cash and then abandoning them abound. In order to begin hormone therapy all manner of medical hoops have to be jumped through including demands that the person live as the opposite to their bodily gender for between one to two years AND be monitored by a specialist psychiatrist during that time. Most end up having to turn to prostitution in order to pay their doctors' bills which I think is seriously wrong.
 
Upvote 0

ShannonMcCatholic

I swallowed a bug
Feb 2, 2004
15,792
1,447
✟30,743.00
Faith
Catholic
I really don't like commenting on these things as I feel we do not know nearly enough about it to pinpoint the issue a lot of these people have.

I often wonder if it is not some sort of brain chemical imbalance or something like it.

A manic depressive person cannot really be blamed if they commit suicide in a low swing.

This is another thing I tend to leave to the mercy of God. And just pray for some sort of wisdom & understanding.

Sometimes I think we are too casual about assigning people crosses...

If its a physical type of problem we have not discovered yet I tend to think God will deal with them in that context. Which would be merciful imo.

There are many functioning people with depression, mental illnesses, etc.
God will always deal with us with mercy. Some people like to cast His justice and mercy at odds with each other- but truly they are one attribute. Even self-selected crosses, are most often, IMO, not chosen with full freedom..rather most often out of hurts and wounds and defects. But God knows the depth of our hearts--it reminds me of yesterday's Responsorial Psalm--He knows all of us, even when we don't know it ourselves. How blessed we are that our salvation is not dependent upon our own perceptions and limited understandings!

Like you wrote, Michie, I have only very peripheral experience with issues like this, and so I am very hesitant to assign judgement. That isn't to say that the Church cannot make decisions such as She's made--though they seem to speak more of the fundamnetal nature of a soul, rather than external gender identities. However I will just err on the side of witholding judgement and granting compassion.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 4, 2008
4
1
✟15,129.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Hi;

May I interject a real life situation. I’d like to hear your guidance on this.

My mother was given a drug to take to lessen the chance of miscarriage and promote healthy babies — that’s what the doctor told her. The drug is Diethylstilbestrol, or DES. In male fetuses, it feminizes the brains of one in five of us ‘DES sons’.

I finally came to terms with this, and realized my choice was transition or die. So, I’m now a male-to-female transsexual who’s had ‘the operation.’ I’ve changed all my legal paperwork and although I still have a male body with XY chromosomes, it has been retrofitted to approximate female anatomy, which is good because if I ever end up in an accident, there will be no ’surprise’ for the first responders. Please look up the story of Tyra Hunter in Wikipedia to see what happens if first responders are 'surprised'.

I ‘pass’ very well, thank you. Only rarely do strangers figure out I was not born this way. Most people have to be told, by me, or, more often, by someone else who just has to ‘drop the bomb.’

So my question to you is — knowing what you know now about me, and assuming for the moment you get absolute power to label me and make determinations on where I can and can't go —

-Which restroom and changing facility do you feel I, a male-to-female transsexual, should use when in public spaces?

-Am I immoral? Some of the posters here have suggested that.

-Am I tearing down western society in support of a deviant agenda?

-Am I selfish?

-What do I have to do do get a normal cross to bear, like the one you received? And why did I get this 'Gender Disphoria' one that revolts so many 'normal' members of society?

I eagerly await your responses;

Hazumu Osaragi

P.S., I hope Zoe Brain puts in an appearance, as she maintains a list of the freshest studies that indicate Gender Disphoria is in-built, like dyslexia or colorblindness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Secundulus
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-Which restroom and changing facility do you feel I, a male-to-female transsexual, should use when in public spaces?

Hi,. Welcome to OBOB. It really needs posters right now.

I'm sorry abouty the hand you've been dealt - that's far harder than anything I've ever had to deal with and I am sorry.

I don't care what bathroom you or anyone else uses. I think keeping them seperate is stupid and a waste of money.
 
Upvote 0

stephenc

Euphemystic
Nov 19, 2006
5,045
312
✟21,782.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Hello, welcome to OBOB. If you're a sock, well, Hi anyway.

As to your questions:

1) The women's.

2) I don't know you personally enough to answer. As your condition is obviously medical, I wouldn't question the morality of your sex change. Bear in mind I don't write Cathecisms.

3) Dunno. Are you? Sounds like a Blast! ^_^ But I'll suppose you're not.

4) Aren't we all?

5) I can't answer it. I don't know. But I'll bet you've been through anguish I can only imagine. See the first quote in my signature; we all have a personal take on "contradiction".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MoNiCa4316

Totus Tuus
Jun 28, 2007
18,882
1,654
✟34,687.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
So God gave them suffering, and then gave them strength, knowing they would ignore it, and its their fault for losing their faith or Gods?

Geo, I was just saying what the Church teaches, and what I've decided to believe too even though at times it's admittedly difficult. Jesus has told many Saints that He will help them (and anyone else) to bear their crosses if they trust Him and accept the strength He wants to give them. He said this in the Bible too. Not everyone does this though, and of course we can't expect non Christians to believe in this idea.
I think it's very tricky trying to determine "who's fault it is" if someone lost faith.. God doesn't force us to believe in Him, it's easy to blame Him, but would you rather He took away our free will, and so our ability to love?
I agree with Shannon's answer that God is merciful and He looks at people individually...if someone COULD HAVE accepted God's grace to deal with their situation, but didn't want to, for reasons such as pride etc, it's probably their fault, to be honest.. just my opinion.. because I don't want to blame God..
but He still loves them and will continue trying to draw them to Himself!
If someone wasn't able to accept God's grace, and so lost faith, well we can't say anything about that, we should just pray for God's mercy for that person.. we can't say what God's judgement will be, we don't know their heart..
One thing for sure, God definitely does sympathize with our suffering and He knows it gets difficult sometimes, He doesn't ever blame people for being in pain! He doesn't say "you should have known better".. but He does want to help us. If we're not able to accept His help, even though we maybe want to, He doesn't stop loving us.

Peace
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Zoe Brain

Newbie
Oct 4, 2008
23
9
66
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
✟15,494.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Hello everyone.

Before May 2005, I was utterly ignorant about Transsexuality and Intersex issues, so i cannot find it in my heart to blame anyone else who's the same way.

To state the obvious, toothaches do not, as a general rule, cause such misery that the afflicted person suicides unless they get treatment. Transsexuality does.

I also ask a question of those who urge Transsexual people to "bear the thorn in their flesh", and carry their cross: I ask such people if they'd ever had a toothache - and if so, did they dedicate their suffering to God, or did they see a Dentist? Their replies are instructive, and I've yet to find one that's different.

Now onto Transsexuality - what is it? I'm approaching it from a medical and scientific viewpoint here, rather than a theological one. I'll deal with the theological consequences that are based on the biological reality later. Please forgive me if I come off all arrogant and pedagogical. :preach: The only reason I know so much is because I've been forced through circumstances to learn, and in a hurry too! :o

First, I'll have to explain "Intersex". Although 98.3% of people are born normally male or female, 1.7% aren't, quite. Of those, about half have trivial, insignificant differences from the norm, but some of the rest have significant differences. Some people are genetically male, but have female bodies, or the reverse. Others have their genes screwed up, so instead of being 46xx (female) or 46xy(male), they are 47xxy, or even a mix of 46xy and 46xx cells.

Now, I'll explain "What is a Transsexual". Some people - the Intersexed - have normal bodies, normal neural (brain) development, but cross-gendered genitalia. But others have normal bodies, normal genitalia, but cross-gendered brains. Genital development happens in the middle of the first trimester, neural development at the end. Little boys "know" they are boys before age 6, little girls "know" they are girls before age 6 too, and this has nothing to do with their body shape or upbringing, it depends on the neural development that was programmed in long before they were born.

Sometimes - about 1 in 500 according to Professor Lynn Conway, things go wrong to a greater or lesser extent. It's possible to end up with a wholly male body, but a female brain, and a female mind. The opposite happens too, but as we all start with a basically female template, it's easier to have a glitch that stops the masculinization of a male than to introduce extra masculinization in a female. That's why only 1 in 4 transsexuals are "Female to Male", men literally trapped in female bodies.

Many transsexuals whose "glitch" was partial can live with it, in various degrees of discomfort. But in at least 1 in 7 cases, or about 1 in 3500 people, the "glitch" is not partial, it's complete. These people, normal men or women who happen to have the wrong shaped body for their brains and minds, get a very severe degree of discomfort indeed. And it gets worse with age. Their brains just don't work very well with the hormonal blood chemistry they have, and their instinctive behaviour is all wrong. Oddly enough, this has little to do with their sexual preference : many such women actually become ostensibly "lesbian" as the result of all the male hormones in their system, and the outside world thinks they're normal, straight males.

There's no "cure" for this congenital condition, but there is an effective treatment that's got a 97% improvement rate. That is to alter the sufferer's body with Hormones, and largely change it so it conforms to the brain's setup. But HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) can only do so much, some surgical "detail work" is usually required so that the sufferer can look normal, and resume their place in society, but as a member of the opposite sex. The one they've always truly been, inside, since long before their birth.

It's just a minor, and quite common, congenital abnormality. Unfortunately, it has far-reaching societal effects. Today, the problem is often picked up early enough so that intervention occurs during or shortly after puberty. But our knowledge of this syndrome is relatively recent, and due to the maternal instinct, a lot of transsexual women (those with male bodies) who were born in the 40's, 50's, 60's or even 70's are married and with children. As the discomfort gets worse with age, many are forced to "transition" at average age 45 no matter what the effect on their loved ones or careers, or suffer permanent and crippling psychological damage. But 45 is an average, some can last till 60, others have to transition before 30.

Now these are extraordinary claims, that stray well beyond the bounds of everyday experience. They go against "common sense". So I better give some evidence to show that I'm not in error.

Back in June, I wrote an article for online publication on the subject, replete with references to medical journals, citations, quotations, you know, facts rather than mere opinions. It was picked up in peer-reviewed "best of" collections in both medical and neurological (science of the brain) categories, It's obsolete now, the field is fast-moving. Even more evidence has come in since then strengthening and affirming the conclusions therein.

It's at aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/bigender-and-brain.html and if you want to look at a single URL rather than perusing various medical journals, it's probably the best place to start. Sorry I can't post a clickable link, you'll have to copy and paste it in your browser. :sigh:

Here's some of the articles quoted therein:

Prenatal exposure to diethylstilbestrol(DES) in males and gender-related disorders:results from a 5-year study

This shows that administration of the drug DES during the first trimester of pregnancy causes Intersex and/or Transsexuality in 1 in 5 infants - comparable with the anomalies caused by Thalidomide, which was 1 in 10. A previous poster, Hazumu Osaragi, is just one of the many so affected.

Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency

This one is a counterexample to the proposition that "if the child looks female at birth, it is female, no matter what". You see, some people get natural "sex changes" due to rare endocrinal anomalies. 99% of the time it's female-to-male due to well-understood conditions, but there are male-to-female changes which are not well understood at all. We know they happen, but any natural sex change is rare, and these ones outrageously so. Perhaps 1 in 4 million (vs 1 in 40,000 female-to-male)

A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus


These two papers show conclusively that Transsexual women - that is, those people who claim to be female, even though they look male - have female brains. Now that's a simplification, only the lymbic nucleus, the part of the brain that deals with emotional response, ovulation, sense of smell, body map (so we 'know' we should have 2 arms etc), and gender identity need be affected, though other parts of the brain may be too.

There's rather more - brain scans from function MRI for example:
Die Radiologen können also das, was die transsexuellen Männer angeben - daß sie sich nämlich "wie im falschen Körper" fühlen - anhand der Aktivierung des Gehirns auf erotische Stimuli bestätigen. Es gibt offenbar ein biologisches Korrelat des subjektiven Befunds.
Or in English,
Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings.
I'll deal with the Theological implications later. But in the meantime, please read Matthew 19:12 and Isaiah 56:3-5 on the subject.

I hope this helps. Oh and by the way.... those rare male-to-female changes? They don't get any warning. They are usually misdiagnosed as mildly intersexed males with Gender Dysphoria - that is, women with mostly-male bodies. Then their bodies start changing, and all sorts of interesting problems arise, especially if they're married.

I had to learn a lot in May 2005. Having my body normalise to match my mind, being able to lay down the cross I'd had to bear since I was a little girl who looked like a little boy, that was... relief indescribable. I was so blessed, I have a duty to help others, to educate, and prevent the terrible persecution that transsexuals suffer. Sometimes, I'm afraid to say, at the hands of people claiming to be Christian.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" :crosseo:
 
Upvote 0
Oct 4, 2008
4
1
✟15,129.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'd like to thank Zoe Brain for that post, and apologise for my use of sarcasm in my previous post. I lack the skill that Zoe has in assembling references to research into a compelling narrative, and end up using sarcasm as a blunt weapon to shatter the frames of reference that others use to marginalise transgenders.

I'd also like to thank those who 'get' that transgenders are real people who don't choose to be something repulsive (especially Sianelle,) and those who answered my questions.

Hazumu
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Oct 4, 2008
4
1
✟15,129.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
tell me what you think:

The rest of the story here, at National Catholic Register.

Paul McHugh. I knew he would turn up. He's occasionally quoted in articles on transgender or transsexual issues, mostly though by news services aimed at the Catholic community. And these articles generally make liberal use of "scare-quotes" and the term 'so-called'.

I'll provide a link that provides another view of Paul McHugh, the Vatican's advisor on sexual matters, but first I wish to introduce the maintainer of the website.

She is Professor Lynn Conway. Briefly, and probably inaccurately, she gave us two important advances in computer technology. The first was out-of-order instruction processing, the second was literally writing the book on Very Large Scale Integration (VLSI), which gave us the chips that these days contain upwards of tens of millions of transistors (cellphones and laptops would be almost impossible without this advance...) And she transitioned in the 70's and remained 'stealth' until just recently.

She challenged the figures of the American Pscychological Association on the prevalence of transsexualism (they had it at 1 in 11,000) by the simple expedient of counting the number of Gender Reassignment Surgeries performed on Americans, and then dividing by the current population. Her rough estimate showed a prevalence of around 1 in 2,000, five times greater than the APA numbers. Her methodology is sound, peer reviewed, and very hard to refute.

Here is a bit of this web page that plays into the article that Sianelle introduced;
McHugh apparently sees himself as the instigator and principal propagator of the now infamous "two-type" theory of transsexualism. Furthermore, since he apparently believes that he "has won the scientific war against sex changes" by convincing the Vatican to denounce transsexualism in 2000...he thinks it is now time to tell the history of his great success!
Finally, the link to Prof. Conway's page on Paul McHugh
http: / /ai.eecs.umich.edu /people /conway /TS /Bailey /McHugh/McHugh%20on%20Transsexualism.htm


Please copy the link into your browser address bar and delete the spaces in front of each of the slashes.

Hazumu Osaragi
 
Upvote 0

MoNiCa4316

Totus Tuus
Jun 28, 2007
18,882
1,654
✟34,687.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I also ask a question of those who urge Transsexual people to "bear the thorn in their flesh", and carry their cross: I ask such people if they'd ever had a toothache - and if so, did they dedicate their suffering to God, or did they see a Dentist? Their replies are instructive, and I've yet to find one that's different.

:wave:Hi, actually there were Saints who did this, they had a choice to either suffer or not, and chose to suffer for the conversion of sinners. For example, I once read about someone (sorry can't remember the name..) who agreed to have surgery without anaesthetic.. there were also Saints who were ill with tuberculosis, etc, and they couldn't be cured, but they also submitted their suffering to God and rejoiced when God used it. Before she died, St. Therese of Lisieux said that she does not wish to suffer less.

I'm not saying that we could all be like the Saints, but that there are people like that.


 
Upvote 0

Maggie893

It is what it is.
Sep 13, 2004
9,827
682
58
Maine
✟21,451.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Welcome to both newcomers.

I'm concerned that there is a misuse of scripture by quoting Matthew & Isaiah. In both cases there is a reference to eunichs but there is no correlation to the situation today with the transgendered community. The eunuchs in scripture were either made that way by others or born that way and carried that burden by the strength of the Lord or they chose to become eunuchs and commit themselves to the Lord, thereby chosing an enforced celibacy through physical modification.

The situation with transgendered today is not really about the Lord and commitment to Him but about finding a way to be "comfortable" (I certainly choose that word carefully, recognizing that there is no great comfort in being "persecuted") in the world rather than live with God's strength in each moment as they were made.

Suicide under stressful and painful situations is still a choice and oppositional to living with God in His strength through the trial. This I do know from experience. To say that transgendering oneself is a matter of life and death is the perspective of one who can not see how God can give them peace in their situation without changing the situation.

Time is just another creation of God's and He is outside of it. 70-80-90 years are few in the scope of eternity with Him. If He asks us to live with some cross or crosses, we should see it as an opportunity to stay very, very close to Him for a few years until we can live with Him eternally without pain and sorrow.

While everyone's cross will vary, it is God who allows it. No one's is truly greater than another as God gives as He sees fit knowing what is necessary for a person to bring them close to Him and to remain with Him eternally.

It would not matter what the volume of statistics could "prove" or "disprove". God is the creator of all and all are of value exactly as He created them without modification. There is so much more to person than the label placed upon them. It's unfortunate that the propaganda today is driven toward "normalizing" everything. The Church does not modify it's teaching because of "new information". It preserves what has always been taught since Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mom2Alex
Upvote 0

Zoe Brain

Newbie
Oct 4, 2008
23
9
66
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
✟15,494.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Welcome to both newcomers.
Thanks!

I'm concerned that there is a misuse of scripture by quoting Matthew & Isaiah. In both cases there is a reference to eunichs but there is no correlation to the situation today with the transgendered community. The eunuchs in scripture were either made that way by others or born that way and carried that burden by the strength of the Lord or they chose to become eunuchs and commit themselves to the Lord, thereby chosing an enforced celibacy through physical modification.
Eunuchs and the Transgendered are not the same thing, but there is an intersection of the two sets.

"Transgendered" includes, but does not only include, the Intersexed and Transsexual. I consider IS and TS to be classed as "eunuchs" in the scriptural sense, but not other TGs.

Similarly, "eunuch" includes, but does not only include, the Intersexed and Transsexual. Normal men (for women were not so treated) who were castrated are eunuchs, but neither TS or IS.

Consider Matthew 19:12:

I'll give the Douay-Rheims version, since the context is Catholic:
For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.
Those born eunuchs "from their mother's womb" are Intersexed, and I don't see how there can be any argument about this. But if you disagree, please say so!

I'd also, using modern medical knowledge, include most IS conditions, and TS ones too. I think this is the area of most controversy.

Those eunuchs "made by men" arguably include post-ops, but I think that's a stretch. Both pre- and post-op TS people I already include in the first clause.

The eunuchs in the second clause are those barbarically castrated against their will, and often as children. So this would include those Intersexed children "normalised" and sterilised in order to make them conform to societal norms. The comparison with the ancient practice of making docile, safe slaves for the harem and bureaucracy is apt. I'm with Dr McHugh on this one, I just think he's inconsistent in other areas.

The third clause - those who become eunuchs "for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven", is the really controversial one. According to current dogma, this suddenly switches from being a concrete, physical definition to being a metaphoric one. There is good reason for this, you have to read all of Matthew 19 to get the context. Matthew 19:3-11 shows they are primarily talking in the context of marriage and divorce, but also about male and female.

You really have to look at the history of the early (pre-Nicean) church, and the crusades a thousand years later against various manichean heresies to see why this dogma became so entrenched. I recommend The Practice of Self-Castration in Early Christianity by Kuefler. It's online.

I think though that there is an equally good argument for genital reconstruction surgery as being not just permitted, but recommended for those who can accept it. This is based on this scripture in conjunction with Matthew 5:29 and Matthew 18:9.

May I recommend Biblos.com which at least has the original Greek, as well as other translations.

I agree that what was mainly being talked about in the last clause of Matthew 19:12 was voluntary celibacy, not surgery.

I strongly deny though that the first clause does not apply to the Intersexed, and that includes the neurologically intersexed. "Lepers" in those days included people afflicted with a variety of conditions, not just Hansen's disease too.

To say that transgendering oneself is a matter of life and death is the perspective of one who can not see how God can give them peace in their situation without changing the situation.
Transgendering oneself?

I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding and miscommunication here. Those Transsexual people who seek hormone treatment and surgery are un-Transgendering themselves. They have a brain-body mismatch, they are born Transgendered. They seek to minimise and resolve the mismatch. After treatment, the vast majority seek anonymity, to live as normal lives as they can, with no hint of their past. It's called "going stealth", and is the course 9 out of 10 take.

Those who do not are a tiny minority. Some because they are "Transgendered", some because "while there is a single person drowning, how can one leave the pool?".

It would not matter what the volume of statistics could "prove" or "disprove".
...
The Church does not modify it's teaching because of "new information".
I think the Society of Jesus would disagree there. It was not so long ago formal dogma said that the Universe was geocentric.

Should the Church go against observable reality, and adduce doctrines that are contrary to provable facts, it will do itself great harm.

Or, if you like, should any "church" adduce "doctrines" that are blatantly false, it loses credibility. I don't use such scare quotes, as I find they are counter-productive. They mock and demean, when we should all have charity for one another.

Please forgive me my confrontational tone. I fully realise you are doing what you think is the Right.
 
Upvote 0

Zoe Brain

Newbie
Oct 4, 2008
23
9
66
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
✟15,494.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To go through gender re-assignment - to modify the body so it fits the brain - a number of hurdles must be crossed.

The first is a full assessment over at least 3 months, sometimes years, by a qualified psych. Then and only then will a formal letter be written authorising an endocrinologist to start the process of hormonally altering the body.

Note that anyone who is mentally disturbed, doing this to make some obscure political point, or doing this to "transgender themselves" will be refused treatment.

After some time, usually years, enough so that the body is changed enough to look ambiguous, a period of living in the target gender is required. This is at least 1 year, often 2 or more. During this period, the patient must use the correct restroom for their target gender, and also maintain employment. If they break either condition, the period starts over again, and they may be refused treatment altogether.

That's not the end. For a second psych, who must be a post-doctoral specialist in the area, must then review the case and provide yet another letter formally authorising surgery.

This formal procedure, a "best practice" adhered to scrupulously in the USA is available online.

More data on Intersex conditions is available from the Intersex Society of North America , the UK Intersex Association and Organisation Intersex International

People born with any of these congenital conditions suffer terrible stigma. Most Intersex people can and do hide their condition. Those with "serial hermaphroditism", and those who are transsexual, cannot. They have to endure being confused with Gays, called "perverts", and even subject to violence or arrest. But you knew that. Now you know why though.

I've simplified some things - for example, not *all* of a TS person's brain is cross-gendered. To have the condition, it's only necessary that the bit determining whether the person is a Boy or a Girl is mismatched, and the mismatch has degrees. Usually many parts of the brain are affected, but this varies between individuals. They may also have other Intersex conditions too, not just the neurology is cross-gendered. But sometimes adding details only clouds the issue.

These are Men born with feminine bodies, or Women born with masculine ones. If you think that is perverse, un-natural and wrong, well, so do they. That's why they try to fix the situation, no matter the great cost to themselves. Though as with all Intersex conditions, it's technically not "Un-Natural". Like other congenital conditions, it happens to other species too. It's as natural as Cancer.

God is the creator of all and all are of value exactly as He created them without modification. There is so much more to person than the label placed upon them. It's unfortunate that the propaganda today is driven toward "normalizing" everything.
"Normalising" without informed consent is only permissible in cases where there is real and immediate harm - congenital heart defects and the like. Refusing to provide medical treatment that will improve and extend life is unChristian.

One may recommend that others act in a saintly manner: but to do so without first doing it to even the slightest degree themselves is at best, uncharitable. To insist that others bear the "thorn in the flesh" of any congenital condition, say, a cleft palate, while they themselves won't even delay seeing a dentist is Hypocrisy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sianelle

Sister Annie
Aug 23, 2008
535
114
Hauraki Plains New Zealand.
✟8,777.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I have just been busy doing a great deal of reading and now that I've got that behind me I'm having to fight the urge to make a wax Paul McHugh doll and stick pins in it!

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/McHugh/McHugh%20on%20Transsexualism.htm

Don't worry I won't go so far as that, but I'll still have to ask forgiveness for letting the thought linger in my mind.

What I think many people do not understand when it comes to gender identity is just how profoundly the sense of what gender you are is wired into our consciousness. If I was to ask 'normal' healthy folk, 'What is it that makes you so certain that you are male or female?' I would imagine you'd think I was asking you a trick question, but think about that for a few minutes. Why do you consider yourself to be a man or a woman?

What Transgender people live with everyday is the certainty, which is just as strong, that they have the wrong body. It runs bone deep and it cuts across so many basic human feelings and responses that it isn't funny. For older TG folk who have managed to hold it together maybe until their mid forties; - they may have married and had a family which only serves to tear them up even more inside, - the constant feeling of having their female minds twisted up by male hormones is usually the straw that breaks the camel's back.
An older TG (M->F) told me that after she started feminising hormone therapy she felt like she'd finally 'come home'. Her brain wasn't being murdered by testosterone anymore and at last she felt like she was at peace.

I make no claim to having the answers to this dilemia, but I am sure of one thing, with an adviser like Paul McHugh advising the Vatican about gender change it's plain that nothing significant is going to happen for a long time.
 
Upvote 0

Zoe Brain

Newbie
Oct 4, 2008
23
9
66
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
✟15,494.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Sianelle, you understand. You get it.

Look, I'm not actually Transsexual. I'm almost the "perfect experiment", what happens when a biological woman is lumbered with a male-looking body. That I am a woman, even by the Vatican's current opinion, is proven by the fact that my body changed to match my mind. Now whether you see the Hand of the Almighty in this, some kind of miracle, or (as I do) merely a rare and not well understood medical oddity, makes no difference. The facts are as they are.

And in my thoughts, my feelings, my life history (though not my body), I am identical in every respect to a Transsexual woman. Indistinguishable in every respect. If I am female, they are too.

If the Almighty ever wanted to provide a Sign, I'm it. Well if so, He uses some very, very unworthy material to implement His purposes. Why me? I'm no saint, I know dozens, even hundreds who had misery far worse than I did. Who deserved a natural cure far more. I don't understand, and I am genuinely and with no pretence at false humility, not worthy. Others are.

I'm not even worthy of the label "Christian", as although I try to live by Christian precepts, I lack faith. And fail miserably in my attempts anyway, as do we all. Surely this gift, this redemption, this "Get Out Of Hell Free" card should have been given to someone who prayed for it? Someone who deserved it far more than I did?

I don't know, and besides which, it's not important, even though it is never far from my thoughts. What is important is that Transsexual people not continue to be misunderstood and persecuted because of that misunderstanding. What is important is that Intersexed boys not be castrated in an attempt to make them female, and Intersexed girls not be surgically and hormonally masculinised, sterilised, in an attempt to make them male.

Dr McHugh is half-right: the surgical mutilation of newborn Intersexed children is an atrocity. Where he's terribly wrong though is when Intersexed (inluding neurologically Intersexed) adults, who can let us know what gender they are, request body modification and get refused because... well, just because. Because of Political Belief.

I'll quote Dr McHugh's Psychiatric Misadventures (available online)
Psychiatric Misadventures.
The zeal for this sex-change surgery--perhaps, with the exception of frontal lobotomy, the most radical therapy ever encouraged by twentieth century psychiatrists--did not derive from critical reasoning or thoughtful assessments. These were so faulty that no one holds them up anymore as standards for launching any therapeutic exercise, let alone one so irretrievable as a sex-change operation. The energy came from the fashions of the seventies that invaded the clinic--if you can do it and he wants it, why not do it? It was all tied up with the spirit of doing your thing, following your bliss, an aesthetic that sees diversity as everything and can accept any idea, including that of permanent sex change, as interesting and that views resistance to such ideas as uptight if not oppressive. Moral matters should have some salience here.
...
We need to know how to prevent such sadness, indeed horror. We have to learn how to manage this condition as a mental disorder when we fail to prevent it. If it depends on child rearing, then let's hear about its inner dynamics so that parents can be taught to guide their children properly. If it is an aspect of confusion tied to homosexuality, we need to understand its nature and exactly how to manage it as a manifestation of serious mental disorder among homosexual individuals. But instead of attempting to learn enough to accomplish these worthy goals, psychiatrists collaborated in a exercise of folly with distressed people during a time when "do your own thing" had something akin to the force of a command.​
When these words were written in 1992, it was possible to defend them. There's a lot in there that I agree with - I'm rather conservative myself. But the autopsy and MRI results and so on that appear to show biological causation have been matched with a very, very low rate of cure from psychiatric techniques - comparable to that of curing amputated limbs by prayer.

Despite searches over 40 years, there's no pattern, no evidence that it's tied to either child-rearing or homosexuality, or anything else in environment in the general case. So much of what was in psych textbooks of even as late as 20 years ago has been debunked, yet myths not supported by evidence persists. In only giving experimental psychiatric treatment, and not proven effective therapy, thousands have died as the result, and for nothing. It is a wild goose chase.

It is true that Johns Hopkins closed down their sex reassignment surgical department, and that it remains closed. It's also true that Johns Hopkins now refers patients to other surgical units. They had too many patients die to continue a policy based on politics and "what should be" rather than reality.

Pardon me, you're not the only woman who is fallible and sometimes thinks most uncharitable thoughts, Sianelle! :sigh:

I'll quote something I wrote over on the Catholic Answers

The Vatican brought in an outside consultant with a very good reputation regarding all manner of sexual problems, Dr McHugh, in the mid-90's. It over-rode it's own scientists, notably Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete who have made lifetime careers studying this particular area. It also discarded practices dating back to 1180 ( Peter Cantor’s De vitio sodomitico — or On Sodomy (d. 1192 AD)
Quote:
The Lord formed man from the slime of the earth on the plan of Damascus, later fashioning woman from his rib in Eden. Thus in considering the formation of woman, lest any should believe they would be hermaphrodites, he stated, “Male and female created he them,” as if to say, “There will not be intercourse of men with men or women with women, but only of men with women and vice versa.” For this reason the church allows a hermaphrodite — that is, someone with the organs of both sexes, capable of either active or passive functions — to use the organ by which (s)he is most aroused or the one which (s)he is more susceptible.

If (s)he is more active [literally, “lustful], (s)he may wed as a man, but if (s)he is more passive, (s)he may marry as a woman. If; however, (s)he should fail with one organ, the use of the other can never be permitted, but (s)he must be perpetually celibate to avoid any similarity to the role inversion of sodomy, which is detested by God.
Unfortunately... Dr McHugh is a maverick, not a specialist in the area, and who as a very conservative person in a very liberal age has allowed his political belief to cloud his judgement. He has not published a single paper in the area, other than in religious and political (not medical) journals.

The Vatican made its best efforts, in good faith, to follow the best and latest scientific data. Their choice of independent scientific guide though can be accurately described as a crackpot in this particular area., while a well-respected and eminent scholar in others.

The Vatican has not re-visited this area since around 2000. Over 50% of the papers on the subject have been written in the last 10 years. They are available for anyone to read on PubMed, and other online sources.

I'm sure the Vatican will re-visit the area, eventually. They usually get things right in the end. I just hope it doesn't take centuries though, as it has been known to in the past.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stephenc
Upvote 0
Oct 4, 2008
4
1
✟15,129.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Zoe Brain said:
After treatment, the vast majority seek anonymity, to live as normal lives as they can, with no hint of their past. It's called "going stealth", and is the course 9 out of 10 take.

Those who do not are a tiny minority. Some because they are "Transgendered", some because "while there is a single person drowning, how can one leave the pool?".
For me to go stealth, I would have to quit my present job. I've been very lucky in that I was generally accepted by my chain-of-command. There are awkward moments with those who feel uncomfortable about transgender issues.

But luckily there is a large turn-over in the organization where I work, and while the newly arrived certainly hear about me, they generally don't 'clock' or 'read' me when I greet them at the customer service counter.

('Clock' and 'read' mean that someone has figured out that your current presentation is not your birth sex. Being clocked in the wrong circumstances can, and often does, lead to being harassed, beaten, or killed. So it's not a good thing.)

Also, I don't announce my status when buying bread and milk at the convenience store.

So while not trying to hide my status at all times, I guess you could say I'm situationally stealth. And I agree with Zoe that it's necessary for my personal safety.

Am I attempting to deceive, as some in other forums claim? No. I'm trying to keep from being harassed/beaten/killed. I'd love to live in a world where having transitioned is an interesting two-minute topic, like a port-wine birthmark that kinda' resembles Japan, and then we move on to a new topic. But that's not going to happen for a while.

My personal safety is also the reason that anyone who I'm about to become intimate with MUST be told beforehand. I apologise if that's Too Much Information, but I'd rather pre-emptively provide that bit of information before someone accuses me of being a deceiver, than have someone say I'm just trying to fool straight men.

It's all part of that cross I bear.

Respectfully;

Hazumu
 
Upvote 0

Zoe Brain

Newbie
Oct 4, 2008
23
9
66
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
✟15,494.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I didn't mention the danger. I guess it's something I just take for granted. People like me, who make no secret of their status (though I don't advertise it) are murdered in the USA at a rate 17 times that of the general population.

I think the count is 28 so far this year - that's not total murders, that's just murders that can be definitely classed as "hate crimes" rather than the usual muggings etc.

If you believe the official figures quoted by the American Psychiatric Association, that Transsexuality is only 1 in 30,000, then that would correspond to 840,000 murders for the first 10 months of this year if extended to the general population.

Public Defender Annette Kundelius argued that the crime was a crime of passion and not premeditated, while prosecutor Rob Miller stated the fact that Andrade hit Zapata, began to clean up the apartment, then hit her again up to five times with a fire extinguisher when he heard gurgling sounds is evidence of premeditation.
...
Andrade told Detective Greg Tharp he thought he'd killed "it" after beating her a second time with the extinguisher until she was dead.
Sorry, I should have mentioned it before. It's something we really only think about in November, on the Transgender Day of Remembrance, when we remember our dead. I don't expect you've heard of that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.