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Transgender/sex-change 'not valid'

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Sianelle, Oct 3, 2008.

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  1. Sianelle

    Sianelle Sister Annie

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    Over the course of my long and interesting life I have worked with Transgender folk and have met and known quite a few of them. During an internet search for something else I found this news report which while long I do think is worth quoting in full.
    It does concern me that the Church is of the opinion that they see Transgender people as a class as being mentally unstable. This can be true in some cases, - just as 'normal' folks can be mentally unstable too, - but since I have at times met some extremely sensible Transgender folk who are holding down very serious professional careers I do feel that the Church is tarring everyone with gender identity issues with the same brush.

    I would welcome your comments.

     
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  2. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Not in the eyes of God...:thumbsup: we never change...
     
  3. MoNiCa4316

    MoNiCa4316 Totus Tuus

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    :wave:In my opinion, transgender people can have totally normal lives otherwise, but their desire to change their gender comes from something deep within, which..needs God's healing
    I read about this one boy who always felt like a girl, and of course we'd all agree that this is not his fault cause he ALWAYS felt like this, since early childhood, but we'd also agree that in a perfect world this wouldn't occur.. that's why I think they're saying in this article that these people are mentally unstable or have a disorder, not in terms of them in general, but just in terms of this particular trait that they have. In the Resurrection of the dead, those of them who are saved will be cured of all this and wouldnt be transgender anymore. (yes I believe that they can be saved, because being born this way isn't a sin in itself - just like being born homosexual isn't a sin, only to act upon it (as Church teaches) - and if they do commit sexual sin they're allowed to repent like all people)
    I believe that it must be difficult for them and of course Jesus loves them and they need His love and mercy too like us all.

    btw I agree with the article that once someone gets a sex change their gender is still the same, if someone was born a male they'll always be male, same with female.. I also believe that it is wrong for someone to get a sex change although of course there is forgiveness and healing and mercy for all.

    I'm hinting at something in my post which maybe I need to explain... some people talk as if sexual sins are the WORST sins EVER and that everyone will go to heaven EXCEPT the homosexuals or the transgender people.. but that's a little ridiculous, I'm straight and I have bigger sins lol pride is a bigger sin and I have that. If God can forgive me, He can forgive them for sure. Of course sexual sins are really damaging and real too and I'd never tell someone that they're not sinning if they're living this sort of life, cause that wouldn't be loving.. we should tell people the truth in love.. but I don't get it how some - esp. in evangelical circles - have this double standard; that everyone can find Jesus except these people..cuz that's not true at all.


    Sorry for my long run on sentences lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2008
  4. Mom2Alex

    Mom2Alex In Christ

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    I remember when this first came out and I do agree with the Vatican statement in its entirety. If God makes them male or female, a doctor no matter how hard he or she tries, does not make the person a new gender. Certainly if a baby boy is baptized, he should not be listed as a girl on future documents because he had his genitalia cut off and is taking female hormones. God created him a male - he remains a male.

    People with learning disabilities or mental illness struggle and bear a heavy cross as do people with physical afflictions such as Multiple Sclerosis. Many of them lead successful lives and certainly are still a child of God, loved beyond measure. That does not mean that no disorder exists. Whether the word disorder, disability, difference or any other synonym is used - it is what it is.

    A teacher at our local high school announced in August two years ago, just prior to school beginning, that he was going to become a she. He had to live a year as a female prior to surgery. He showed up in his high school classroom in full makeup, long flowing hair and I think he was the only teacher there that wears a dress. His colleagues were warned with an attorney present that they would lose their jobs and face a possible lawsuit if they or any parents said anything. He was to be referred to as Mrs. _______ and children faced expulsion if they said anything negative about the situation. The kids were not permitted to transfer out of his class if they felt uncomfortable being taught by a male in a dress, full makeup with a five o'clock shadow, with a masculine voice. The kids all had to attend a meeting where they were told the procedure of hormones and surgery. They waited to announce the big news until sport practices were well underway and kids would not want to transfer to our local Catholic high school due to time already invested. I had to explain to my child something I shouldn't have had to - why a man, someone's daddy, was going to have surgery and become a woman. It was in the news, and quite the talk of the area - though my child was in a Catholic elementary school in a different town, he heard all about it. I have to explain to my son that God doesn't make junk, but then yes he does? No, God doesn't make mistakes. We all have crosses. I long for another child but God has not sent one to us. We must bear our crosses with dignity.

    Sorry, my two cents.

    Kelly

    P.S. Psychologists refer to this anomaly as Gender Identity Disorder.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2008
  5. Mom2Alex

    Mom2Alex In Christ

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    tell me what you think:

    The rest of the story here, at National Catholic Register.
     
  6. MoNiCa4316

    MoNiCa4316 Totus Tuus

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    I agree with Mom2Alex that it's a cross that people have to bear.. we all have our crosses, indeed, and this one can be heavy. But if the person bears it patiently they will be sharing in Christ's Cross, and that is of course a blessed thing. It's one of the ways God takes something broken and uses it, turns it to good, eventually makes it whole again.
     
  7. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

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    Unless of course we're wrong about that. Then they will have suffered their whole lives for nothing. I wonder how sometimes people with those heavy crosses remain convinced in the decisions they make to continue believing this faith.
     
  8. MoNiCa4316

    MoNiCa4316 Totus Tuus

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    the Church teaches us that we can use suffering and that it's not for nothing unless we make it that way.. we waste a lot of suffering by not using it for sanctification, and not uniting it to Christ's suffering and offering it to the Father.. the Saints did this and profited greatly.

    God gives them strength to carry their cross, so they do not lose their faith. :)
     
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  9. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

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    Unless they do - lose it. Then what? did they not get sufficient strength or are they just too weak?
     
  10. MoNiCa4316

    MoNiCa4316 Totus Tuus

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    it means that they tried to carry their cross on their own strength instead of on God's strength.
    We shouldn't be afraid to be weak, in fact we should rejoice in our weaknesses, what we should do though is submit that to God and rely on Him not on ourselves.
     
  11. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

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    So God gave them suffering, and then gave them strength, knowing they would ignore it, and its their fault for losing their faith or Gods?
     
  12. Sianelle

    Sianelle Sister Annie

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    And it is a very heavy cross, because at the time I was working with Transgender people their suicide rate was close to 70%.
    At one time Transgender folk here in New Zealand would be sent to mental hospitals for treatment. Commonly that was ECT and at the end of the 'treatment' the unfortunate patient would still strongly believe they were in the wrong body, only now they were a little brain damaged as well.
     
  13. ShannonMcCatholic

    ShannonMcCatholic I swallowed a bug

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    God is infinite mercy and infinite justice. He knows just how heavy our burdens are, and just how weak we truly are....He knows precisely how much freedom we truly had (which sometimes just isn't very much at all), and how much of our struggles come to us through the faults of others. If a person loses their faith through hurts and wounds and suffering which became unbearable, wiell God in His infinite justice and mercy knows that, too.

    There's no point in trying to figure out who goes to heaven and who goes to hell--there is only the point in trying to the imperfect best we can in the face of our own sufferings. And to pray for those who suffer and do what we can to alleviate the suffering of others and ourselves as we can.
     
  14. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

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    Good answer.
     
  15. geocajun

    geocajun Priest of the holy smackrament

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    Do you believe that all of those who committed suicide simply chose not to cooperate with God's grace? I ask because someone alluded to God giving all of them the strength to carry that cross, and those who fail are trying to do it without God (which I think is a contradiction btw as they wouldn't acknowledge the cross if not for God).
     
  16. ShannonMcCatholic

    ShannonMcCatholic I swallowed a bug

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    I think in cases like this, that there is hope that as our understanding of issues surrounding gender identity grow more fully, that the pastoral nature of the Church will evolve with that understanding. There is just so , so, so much in this areaa that we don't really know...
     
  17. Sianelle

    Sianelle Sister Annie

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    Most Transgender folk I met believed in nothing at all and when you were dead you were dead forever. Some, a small number, retained something of a sketchy Christian belief, but didn't see that the Church could offer them anything or that it even wanted them. And others utterly despised the Church and even went so far as to praise the Devil.
     
  18. Sianelle

    Sianelle Sister Annie

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    I can remember going to one of those Protestant sideshow churches one night in company with some of my Transgender friends because a young woman we all knew and thought a lot of was going to be singing various Gospel songs.
    No sooner were we all barely in the place than somebody starts praying in a booming voice for God+ to heal these 'sinners' (meaning my friends). Once we heard our friend sing we left not wanting to stay any longer in the place. Needless to say it wasn't a particularly successful attempt at trying to win hearts and souls for Christ+.
     
  19. Michie

    Michie Manipulation Resistance Team Supporter

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    I really don't like commenting on these things as I feel we do not know nearly enough about it to pinpoint the issue a lot of these people have.

    I often wonder if it is not some sort of brain chemical imbalance or something like it.

    A manic depressive person cannot really be blamed if they commit suicide in a low swing.

    This is another thing I tend to leave to the mercy of God. And just pray for some sort of wisdom & understanding.

    Sometimes I think we are too casual about assigning people crosses...

    If its a physical type of problem we have not discovered yet I tend to think God will deal with them in that context. Which would be merciful imo.

    There are many functioning people with depression, mental illnesses, etc.
     
  20. Sianelle

    Sianelle Sister Annie

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    Research is still on-going, but early results seem to be pointing to a structural difference in Transgender brains.

    Perhaps the largest difficulty TG folk have is dealing with people who don't have their gender identity issues, but are all too keen to tell them what their problem is. I can remember having the feeling of body 'wrongness' described to me as being 'bone deep', or feeling as if their body isn't fitting properly on their bones.
    The other thing about TG people is if they can 'pass' for the gender they want to be that is exactly what they do and they become literally invisible in society. (Just as a btw, 'passing' is the Holy Grail that every TG person aspires to, but not everyone can achive it unfortunately, - hence the high suicide rate).
     
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